Question Please
 

What is the difference between a S/SS combo with No heads up, no scales, no fuel check, NO TECH PERIOD and a bracket race????????

Why do you guys go race a S/SS combo but won't go to a bracket race?????????

We have heard the argument before. Class racing is not the same as bracket racing because of YADA YADA YADA YADA, but look at question #1 then answer both.
Chip Johnson

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None, that's why I won't run one like that.

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x2

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Because it's a glorified test and tune and a good, although maybe not reliable, way to judge your performance against your competitors. And there is no points given that influence anything.

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Chip, I can;t answer for the others, if I had to venture a guess, I would say most racers like racing against other Class cars, as opposed to a true Bracket car. I've done both, had no problem doing either. I guess I prefer S/SS races for the reason I stated, plus most S/SS combo's are a better entry/payout ratio, or pay more to win, potentially (Hagerstown last weekend was $100 to enter, $2,000 to win).

As far as the S/SS Association races I put on, most tracks we run at don't have scales or fuel check equipment. Plus, I don't have the money to pay someone (like a Terry, Duane, etc) to show up and do the tech and post-run checks. Because of that, we don't have qualifying or heads-up runs. The only real rule is that a racer must dial the Class Index or quicker, and I would say 99% of the racers at my events over the past thirteen years have been safely under, with no need to cheat (weight, carburetor, etc). I guess you just assume if one is not 100% legal, they all are that way. Hence, no advantage to it, with the no heads-ups/qualifying rules.

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SS/S combos are regular old bracket races with Legal Stockers and Super Stockers only. (Super Stockers are actually No Box)

Legal meaning most if not all have passed tech inspection at NHRA & IHRA sanctioned events. Constructed with the limited rules.

Most SS/S Associations will enforce courtesy staging, no deep staging.

Footbrake & No Box bracket cars have no rules other than Transbrake or No Transbrake & ET limitations.

I have no problem racing my stocker in footbrake but do you think a low 9 second tube chassis big block on alcohol would dominate a SS/S Combo?? I know some that do in Footbrake.

Besides, combo races are used by everyone at some point to test with the added value of seeing the change against other cars on the same track and day without national or divisional points implications.

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The ASRA races at New England Dragway and Lebanon Valley are combo races and have always run heads up races flat out no breakout, no dial in. This year we had 60-68 cars at 5 of our 6 races and 50+ at the other one. So it is not hurting our turnout.

I don't know how many other associations are doing it this way, but it has not hurt us, it probably has helped us. At our last event I think we had 3 heads up races. It certainly adds a little excitement and fun.

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I won't race at one like that again

I went to one where they allowed a bracket car to run as a SS car

You forgot one other rule they didn't have to be able to run the index either



:-) peace

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One reason the combo races at Bowling Green draw 50-60 cars or more is because they do have heads up races and scales. I have no desire to run the "no heads up" combo races. We have run them, but just to support the association, not because we like racing without the possibility of heads up races.

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I wish they would have weighed at the combo at No Problem, but it wasn't Pat's deal. I'm thinking I may need to find a "summer home" for the I/SA camaro up there so I can run the combos

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I'd be okay with heads-up runs and scales at Combo races. I know fuel check would be far more difficult to do on such a small level (equipment, knowledge, resources, time), and I really don't think someone's got a drum of 10% Nitro sitting in the trailer just for a heads-up run at a little Combo race. :rolleyes: I think people pretty well police themselves on that level.

While I bracket race my Volare and Turismo, I very much enjoy running S/SS races for something different. While bracket racing the Turismo, I deep stage and use a stripe taker. At Fayetteville's S/SS Combo on Saturday, I'll be shallow, the stripe taker comes off, and it will be dialed welllll below the index! :D (Thank God for 1/4-mile racing, in this instance!)

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It would be nice to have some in our part of the country because all the No box races don't allow transbrakes. I can't even enter to get seat time/testing time. All I can do is go with the Electronics classes and that means only 3 time trials, if lucky) and one round of real competition. In my book, You guys that have S/SS Associations are very fortunate.

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and use a stripe taker. ?????????????????
????????What's this?

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Deleted.

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Gezzz Mike....I would have done it for nothing although I got to watch and BS more by just coming up with "Dyno" Don....LOL. Now Im all the way down here in the land of sun and warm weather.

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The one nice thing about no heads-ups (aside from being easier on me/us to do the races) is that being a millionaire or having the advantage of an underfactored combo is nullified. Anyone can compete, as long as it's NHRA/IHRA-legal, and can run the Index. These races, the average Joe Stocker guy can have a chance. When I polled a few racers in my series, they preferred that I leave it as is (and yes, some were fast guys/girls that love heads-ups). And like was said earlier, you can test, gauge yourself (though not 100% accurately) against fellow competitors, race with your peers, win some good money, have a better entry/payout than a Divsional race, and only need to take one, at most two, days away from home, and it's a low pressure, fun way to race without all the costs, points and xHRA hassles. I guess if you prefer the heads-ups and all that, there is still National/Divisional events.

Terry, I could have paid your in water/diet Coke/Gatorade and a premade cold sandwich, had I known that. LOL

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Personally...I can't run a two-step at a bracket race unless I run with top et...some/most tracks i can't run top et unless i run quicker that 7.99.

i would love to run more bracket races but my car is very finicky and trying to foot break it is very difficult for me at this point.

so....i say that we have a LEGEND bracket race all run and just follow safety rules...i'm in!

Chad: I got some extra room as long as I can drive on the weeks you can't make it!

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Yeah....but in reality the way you, Dave and others are doing it is probably for the best for the very reasons you mentioned. It gives the guy just starting out a place to play without the heavy expense and a lot of the fast guys/girls like it this way also. Its a no pressure way to have some fun with a chance to make a couple of dollars enjoying time with friends and competitors. Different tastes for different people. If you dont like the no heads up runs then stay home or race else where. Theres lots of that with the XHRA programs. No big deal. Hope to see you and your mom and dad next season.

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Chip,

I think that most racers will attend that race because of the Warren's, who do a great job putting on this race .... I am sure it has to do with getting car counts up & keeping everyone happy ... But racers do like heads-up and would add to the car count ...

Chip, when will the new stocker be done , in time for 2011 opening day ..... Ha, Ha, Ha,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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In bracket racing, it it legal to have a stripe taker, a fixed piece of metal located under the nose of the car that trips the finish line beam. Some cars naturally trip the finish line with the nose, spoiler, front fascia, air dam, spill plate, etc., while others trip the finish line with the front tire. In the case of my Turismo, the nose is pretty low, but it passes over the finish line, except when I lift or hit the brakes, then the front end drops low enough to trip the beam early: if I hit the brakes right at the stripe, I'll go a couple hundredths *quicker*, because I hit the finish line with the nose instead of the tire. The front end is so low on the car that my stripe take is only about 1-1/2" tall... that's all it takes to trip the finish line consistently. When Class racing, I remove the stripe taker and have to change my finish line driving style (and have to go back to shallow staging and change my starting line driving style.)

Study those Super Stock Cobalts, and late model Camaros in Stock, and see what's hitting the finish line, the nose or the tire? And is that answer the same if the driver hits the brakes? Just stuff to be aware of.

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Ah yes, deep staging. Those were the days. :)


-Toby

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Dave,
Was not talking about any race in particular. I know that all the combo's I ever ran were simply a bracket race. I was just making a point about some of these "CLASSY RACERS" who are to good to bracket race but still run the combo's.
I think the real reason is they are scared to get their ***** handed to them by some lowlife bracket racer in a beater.LOL

The only new car for me next year will be long and skinny with the motor in the back.
My 18 yr old wants to race and we are undecided about putting him in a footbrake/stocker or my Camaro.
Lot depends on the money which right now not a lot.
Chip

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On a side note about the "CLASSY RACERS".
I was impressed with a few things this season: In no particular order:

1) Jeff Hefler doubles at the bracket finals then goes to Pomona and almost doubled again.

2) Watched Duckboy win a Top E.T. $3,000 race at Rockingham in his stocker.

3) Duckboy won a race of champions race with the "Kiddie Car"

4) Scotty Stillings got r/u at the NHRA div5 bracket finals in Top E.t. with his Super Stocker.

I know there were a lot more amazing feats this year of Stockers kicking butt.
Congrats guys.
Chip Johnson

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Chip for me it's NO BUY BACKS!!!!!!!!!!! Look if you come to race & get beat 1st round GO HOME or run the "gamblers race"!

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Buybacks and double entries too. I will give ya'll that one. Thats why I like going to the IHRA/NHRA races.
Chip

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Instead of telling class racers they are scared or they will get their ***** kicked, why don't you wake up and grow up.....people do things because they WANT TO for their own enjoyment or pleasure......including RACING FOR THE FUN OF IT !!! NOBODY is going to get rich or famous either way.

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Chip,

I don't think they are scared , because they get there butts kicked in NHRA & IHRA .... I also think they do much more racing in brackets
than you will ever know.... They just don't brag about it & keep a low profile ... As Greg & others say they don't like some of the rules , Boxes,no-box, buy-backs,staging lane games, etc.... But, they do go bracket racing and do pretty well ... Lot's of NHRA guys don't like 1/8 mile or IHRA either, but they doesn't mean they are scared.. Lot's of good racers never go to National / Div. events ....

You see it's all about having choices on where & when to race, thank God we still have some choice's ... As we have said before there are great racers in both NHRA & IHRA ... It's just too bad more of them don't cross-over more often... I know
that in most cases there aren't IHRA tracks close by for alot of racers. Choice's & the $$$$$$ are hurting racing & tracks ....

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here's why I'm building a stocker, there's a chance at running a headsup race where there,s NO chance of a headsup in brackets.
plus it seems like a challenge to run something with rules attached (that's why all the stupid "legal" questions from me...)

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Gary Stinnett World Champ in S/C, runs a Superstocker and occasionally a Stocker!

All one needs to do is atttend an East Coast Stock/Superstock Association race or an All-Star Racing Association race to see the car counts and how successful both organizations are!

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How can you have a fair heads-up class run when one car is at NHRA weight and the other is at IHRA weight (different HP factors)? Apples & orange's.

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There were 6 or 7 Stockers at the Fall Footbrake Frenzy the other week, and at least three of us were deep staging! An R/SA, J/SA, and DF/S... go figure... :rolleyes: That's okay, we still find a way to compete in Class races, even if we're at a disadvantage. There's a lot of "fast car" guys out there that would be lost in the woods trying to drive something like the Dime Rockets of Ed Fernandez and Billy Nees! But, because "majority rules", I'm sure the rule will never be revisited. It'd probably be an embarrasment to the marketing department to have slow cars win.


I do agree with you. I also think that a lot of S/SS guys have a limited schedule that they want to run, and when they set that schedule, it's probably going to be points races, and most events outside of that aren't even on their radar.

To each their own, live n' let live, etc, etc...

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I do both ,i need the practice. With my work schedule and money limitations i just do not have enough seat time. Had plenty back in the day and have won more than my share in bracket racing (not in class racing YET ). Nothing wrong with either. Growed up watching the likes of Bobby Warren ,Garley Daniels , Ronnie Yopp, Dick Henry, Troy Humphrey an Ed Mcglawhorn and the list goes on..... The point is they were class racers and very good at it. My dream was to be able to race like they did,but i only had a budget for bracket racing , It still did not stop me from the dream i had. Some start out as class racers and some do as i did and work their way to their dreams. If truth was know there are a lot of both now days for this very reason. I used to go to the dragstrip at KDS and mark the windows at tech (for free ,just to get in to the races and watch). I am proud to say my shoe polish has marked a few champs in those days and some are still doing it. Do what you choose , I do both and have FUN at it.

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Bobby Z.,

The ASRA policy on ihra/nhra factors is that the nhra class and factor is what we go by unless it is an ihra only class.

So we use nhra hp factors

You can't run fuel inj classes and trucks run with cars as per nhra, but pure stockers are welcome to run pure stock. same with crate motor cars.

Just passing on ideas that work for us.

Dave

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Danny you are correct and by those names you mentioned, old. I am on my second time around. God has given my wife and I the opportunity to go back out racing with my son and my grandsons and I don't care what type of drag racing it is . We run brackets races, nostalgia races, Pinks All Out (love that racing), some charity racing, yes no payment money involved and trying some class racing. I am not sure that class racing now is going to be what I remember class racing being. As you and I discussed at the recent race at Kinston, it made me feel good to be at Kinston on a Sunday afternoon and see the cars coming in. As we talked about in the pits that day, there are a lot of memories of class racing in the days of the Modified Production and Gasser races at that track. Race what you want to race (can afford to race) and don't put down the other guy or gal, it all comes down to enjoying what your doing and who gets the win light.

You have a personnal message when you get a chance.

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Here's my 2 cents worth.. being a second generation racer I have to tell you with all the rules and stipulations that they put in place to be a "Class Racer " they are fast pushing my generation into other area's of the sport ( NMCA/ NMRA/ ADRL / Pinks All-Out). Being in the Mopar Performance parts business, I see and talk to a lot of guys my age 35 and younger and they are all saying the same thing. When I was growing up I lived to hear pops and my uncles tell stories of the like of Ronnie Sox , Bobby Warren , Harold Denton ,Melvin Yow, E.T Watson and all those guys @ the old Sanford Dragstrip or Kinston or EZ-Street ( Dunn Benson) in the hayday of Stk and Superstock. And when I got my Duster that was my intent was to follow in Pops and thoses guys footsteps, but I have to tell you I'm getting closer and closer to changing direction and looking to do something diffrent with my car. Not trying to make anyone mad, or cause any discontent, just telling you what's going on in my generation and if you guys want to see Stk/Superstock contiune to florish it needs to be more accessible and fesible. Again no ill feelings intended just my 2 cents

Chris

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Myself I like to race bigger races wheres theres prestige.The Fayetville combo is a great race wish I could go .A liitle fellowship among people I know is why I race div and National races.I also race Gear Jammers because I know people there.

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I was told at the Sac Combo by Tech and Director that Gary Evans and I would have weighed and fuel checked for a heads up second round. They should check fuel and weight if points are awarded.

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Dad, Stephen, and I, all bracket raced at Union County last Saturday in the "Modified" Class. We had a fun time close to home and will do it again when the season starts back. For Dad, it is easier to pay a nurse to stay with Mom for a day (Alzheimers) than for a full weekend. I want to bracket race, because I want to race more and get better at doing it. Also, the $40 entry was much easier on the wallet. I lost to Ralph DeLoach, who recognized my "Billy Plage Racing Engines" decal, and asked if I knew Roy Caraway. Roy has been "dead on" against him at Carolina Dragway. Note, Len King "No Box Champion", Roy Caraway, Jake Sealey, and Ray Grice all in "No Box" points in their Stockers at Carolina Dragway. I love the combos too. I just want to race! I would love to be at Fayetteville this weekend, but 4 hours and have other plans.

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When we ran Piedmont Dragway we had some of the best Combo's around with our end of the year race drawing 52 cars. Most class racers dont like buybacks for one. For you guys that say you wont run a race without scales or heads your stupid. You need to support a race in your area if its done. Our rule at Piedmont was you had to run a race in the past 12 months, there was one jerk on here that cussed me out because he had been in IRAQ for 2 years and would never support my race with a rule like that, well obviously that rule would be waived for this, we just had it in there to keep the local guy from jumping in there that didnt belong. Most of the NC, SC, VA stock superstock racers all know each other probably better than the NHRA racers do in other areas and we never had ONE complaint from anyone. The combo's we had at Piedmont were some of the best racers from a track operator standpoint. We ran them on Thursday night in front of 4000 people more than once. I hate the new owner wont consider running them more as they always make for a good show. just my .02

Herb Jr

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Good post Herb, and the guys that won't run a combo without scales probly don't run NHRA/IHRA races either because of ???????????????????????????????