2011 ahfs
 

Here is the new system that NHRA has come up with. Notice that all runs count at Nationals ,LODRS races and altitude tracks also. They did stick with averaging and not just one run to trigger HP. Please notice there is a part that addresses the combination that need HP back and how that is triggered. This is all the council knows at present but if you have any question please feel free to contact your division SRAC council member or watch for further update on the NHRA Lucas site.

Thanks

Mike Crutchfield
Division 2 S/SS SRAC COUNCIL MEMBER

Automatic Horsepower Factoring System (AHFS) explained
The AHFS is used to review and evaluate runs in Stock and Super Stock for possible horsepower adjustments. The review is conducted twice per racing season. The two reviews are compiled individually so the data is not cumulative. Runs included in the AHFS database are limited to final qualifying runs (Q data) and all elimination runs (E data) at all NHRA National and LODRS events. (At events where class eliminations are run, all runs are included in the AHFS database. Only the first round of class is part of qualifying and therefore is part of the "Q" database.) The "Q" data and "E" data files are the official data gathered by the NHRA timing system and processed through the NHRA Information Technology department. NHRA "Q" data and "E" data are the only data files used for the AHFS.

The first review period includes data from National and LODRS events 1 through 11 and the second period includes runs from events 12 through 23. The following procedure is used in reviewing run data:

Final qualifying, class eliminations, and elimination runs of 1.00 seconds or more, under the index, at NHRA National and LODRS events will trigger an automatic review. (The combination must make at least two runs of 1.00 or quicker before a review is triggered to prevent a "one time fast run" from triggering the system.) In reviewing runs of 1.00 or more under the index, the database of runs for the engine combination being reviewed are put through three screenings as listed below. The screenings will look for an overall engine family average or class/engine average faster than 0.850-second under. Runs of .350 and slower are not included in calculating the engine or class/engine averages:

•Engine family average: The overall engine average for all cars, regardless of class, running the particular engine combination being reviewed are included in this screening.
•Class/engine average where engine is run: The class/engine average of the car running the specific combination in the class that triggered the review is studied.
•Body style and transmission type: Also considered in the above two screening processes are body style of the engine combination being reviewed and transmission type. Adjustments are only in effect for the specific car model being evaluated. The body style are generally classified by the OEM auto manufacturers' definition of "platform", i.e., the Camaro and Firebird body are both based on the same platform and therefore considered the same with regard to body-style classification. In some instances, however, more than one body style will trigger a review. With regards to transmission type, if the class average triggers the review, the adjustment would be for classes with the type of transmission triggering the change. However, if an engine family average triggers the review, the adjustment would be for all transmission types.
If either the engine family average or the class/engine average are found to be faster than 0.850-second under, a change will be initiated.
To more clearly illustrate how the AHFS program affects a given combination, the following is a hypothetical evaluation in Stock class for a 305-cubic-inch, 215 factory rated horsepower, fuel-injected Camaro during a review period:

Two K/SA Camaros running this combination ran 1.214- and 1.187- second under the index, triggering a review. As per the procedure outlined above, the overall engine average is analyzed first. Upon reviewing the engine average made by the 305/215/241 FI combination, 10 runs had been recorded (2 in K/SA and 8 in L/SA) with a total engine average of .845-second under. Because the overall engine average did not hit the required 0.850 under, the combination did not warrant a horsepower adjustment based on overall engine average.

The next step, per the procedure outlined above, is a class/engine review. The class of the car that actually triggered the review was K/SA. The class review revealed that K/SA had a class/engine average for the combination in question of 1.201-second under, therefore surpassing the 0.850-second-under requirement and signaling a horsepower adjustment for all 305/215/241 FI Camaros.

An important element to note and one most often misunderstood by racers is that although a K/SA Camaro affected the change, the L/SA 305/215/241 FI Camaros that run this combination also received a horsepower adjustment. The reason is that a specific combination can run in more than one class based on NHRA rules; therefore, all cars with the specific engine combination, transmission and body style will be affected.

Once the need for an adjustment is determined, the following sliding-scale formula, based on a percentage of horsepower, is used to calculate the horsepower increase:


Under Index
Horsepower Increase
Index Change

1.000-1.099
1.25%
-.05

1.100-1.199
2.25%
-.10

1.200-1.249
3.25%
-.15
(immediate change)

1.250-1.299
4.25%
-.20 (immediate change)

1.300-1.349
5.25%
-.25 (immediate change)

1.350-1.399
6.25%
-.30 (immediate change)

1.400-1.449
7.25%
-.35 (immediate change)

1.450- 1.499
8.25%
-.40 (immediate change)

1.500- 1.549
9.25%
-.45 (immediate change)

1.550- 1.599
10.25%
-.50 (immediate change)

1.600- 1.649
11.25%
-.55 (immediate change)

1.650- 1.699
12.25%
-.60 (immediate change)

1.700- 1.749
13.25%
-.65 (immediate change)

1.750- 1.799
14.25%
-.70 (immediate change)

1.800- 1.849
15.25%
-.75 (immediate change)

1.850- 1.899
16.25%
-.80 (immediate change)

1.900- 1.949
17.25%
-.85 (immediate change)

1.950- 1.999
18.25%
-.90 (immediate change)





Adjustments are rounded up to the nearest full horsepower even if the fraction is below 0.5 horsepower. As an example, 2.15 horsepower is rounded to 3 horsepower. The quickest run, by the combination being reviewed, is used to determine the adjustment percentage.

Runs of 1.200 or more under the index will be reviewed and adjusted Tuesday following the event. Runs at National, and Divisional Events, including those at altitude factored race tracks, are included in the 1.200-second-or-more-under analysis. This is done to better react to any out-of-line indexes or under-horsepowered combinations. Therefore, at all such events, a horsepower adjustment or index reduction will be initiated Tuesday following the event. The decision to adjust horsepower or to reduce the index will be at the discretion of the NHRA Tech Department.

In addition to reviews resulting in a horsepower increase, a written request (only one request per competitor, per review period.) will trigger a review for the purpose of a decrease in horsepower factor or index adjustment. The request must include eliminator, year, model, engine size, advertised horsepower, factored horsepower, and class; to be eligible. Incomplete requests will not be reviewed.

The screenings will look for an overall engine family average less than 0.550-seconds under. Runs of 0.100-second under and slower are not included in calculating the engine average:

In addition, the combination must NOT make two runs of 0.650 or quicker for the review to continue or any run 0.850 or quicker.)

Engine family average: The overall engine average for all cars, regardless of class, running the particular engine combination being reviewed is included in this screening.

If the engine family average is found to be slower than 0.550-second under, a change will be initiated.

To more clearly illustrate how the AHFS program affects a given combination, the following is a hypothetical evaluation in Stock Eliminator for a 305 cubic-inch, 150 factory rated horsepower, carbureted Camaro during a review period:

A written request triggered a review by the committee. As per the procedure outlined above, there were NOT 2 runs 0.650-second or quicker preventing a review or ANY run 0.850-second or quicker preventing a review. The overall engine average is analyzed next. Upon reviewing the engine average made by the combination, 10 runs had been recorded (2 in I/SA and 8 in J/SA) with a total engine average of 0.535-second under. Because the overall engine average did not hit the required 0.550-second under, the combination proceeds with the evaluation.

Once the need for an adjustment is determined, the following sliding-scale formula, based on a percentage of horsepower, is used to calculate the horsepower decrease:

Under Index
Horsepower Decrease
Index Change

0.066-quicker
1.25%
+.05

0.04-0.065
2.25%
+.10


Adjustments are rounded up to the nearest full horsepower even if the fraction is below 0.5 horsepower. As an example, 2.15 horsepower is rounded to 3 horsepower. The quickest run, by the combination being reviewed, is used to determine the adjustment percentage. The decision to adjust horsepower or to increase the index will be at the discretion on the AHFS Committee.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

OK, I have a few questions. It says "Final qualifying." Does this mean they will only use what it says on the final qualifying sheet? For instance, someone goes 1.05, 1.03 and 1.01 under on his 3 qualifying passes. Since the 1.05 under only shows on the final qualifying sheet, does it only count as one trigger or do the other runs count as triggers also?




Under the new rules doesn't a run of more than 1.20 under mean this combo will get hit with automatic HP? Why would you still need to review the engine average?


-Toby

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Toby
This is not the final draft, it is only the one they sent the council and I am sure correction will be made to match the changes before it hits the web site. That should read two runs under 1.00 under will trigger the review. 1.20 is automatic and the sliding scale kicks in after that.
And yes ALL runs count including all class runs and all LODRS runs. The wording can be a little confusing to me also.

Thanks
Mike

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

What is the "immediate change" number related to?

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

More Automatic Help For Slugs
The automatic number is 1.20 Does that means a factored 1.2
Also the hit automatic hit increases by .05 seconds for every .05 seconds faster you go.
I think that sucks.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Mike, Im sorry but why do you even post this if its not the FINAL DRAFT ! ?
Not really a good decision if you want my 2 cents.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I believe the number you're talking about is the index change for classes that don't use an HP/weight ratio.

So if a car goes 1.23 under it will get an immediate 3.25% increase in horsepower or an immediate .15 reduction in index, whichever is applicable.


-Toby

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Once the need for an adjustment is determined, the following sliding-scale formula, based on a percentage of horsepower, is used to calculate the horsepower increase:


Under Index
Horsepower Increase
Index Change

1.000-1.099
1.25%
-.05

......so what does -.85 to -.99 get?

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Looking pretty good to me. Should bring the really bogus stuff in line a lot quicker. I like both transmissions getting adjusted also. Looks like the tech dept. has put a lot of effort in it.
I may be nuts, but I'm a lot more optimistic about next year.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I don't get the index adjustment. The index covers all vehicle combinations (in the example K/SA) so why would it drop .05 or more?
Sorry, not understanding how that is possible...:confused:

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Jeff, that's the SS "hood scoop" cars, right?

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Yes, as Ed said, the index change is only for classes that use the pounds per cubic inch factor like SS modified.


-Toby

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Amazingly, I have had very little input on this subject from any fellow div 6 racers. I do think the proposed changes are a step in the right direction, please let me know what you think.
One additional suggestion I had made is to post the qualifying speed. I am not suggesting those lifting at 1000' should be penalised, just suggesting it would help level the playing field for those us who don't have a crew member to stand at the 1000' mark during qualifying.

Jim Mantle, div 6 S/SS SRAC

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

283 R.I.P next year lolllllllllllllll

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Us AMC'ers aren't always the smartest bunch but this just goes to show everybody Ed's smarter than I

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Jeff thanks for the pics I have been busy sorry I didnt reply to your e-mail..

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

As I look into my crystal ball, I can see the future.....

It's Boise or Tucson with a sea level weather condition like we had a few years ago and guess what......

10 or 20 combos get HP on Tuesday and have to live with it when you are in Div 3 or 4 at sea level in August with a 28.50 baro.......

You wanted AHFS at the altitude tracks and now you have to live with the results...
...

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I notice there is nothing in that draft to address the weather conditions. If NHRA does nothing to address the problem of weather conditions skewing the AHFS, the AHFS will remain broken, and the racers will continue to be screwed by it.

It's been said repeatedly for years, in order to work properly and fairly, the AHFS system MUST correct ALL data to an SAE standard sea level day. Each Division must have its own regularly calibrated weather station, to be used at the track before and after every session, or the data collected is skewed and worthless.

If the average racer can afford a weather station, then NHRA can afford to buy 7 nice ones for their staff, keep them correctly calibrated, and have someone on the starting line record a weather reading before and after each session.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Good Luck with that - I suggested that 10 years ago when all of this started & nobody listened

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

They would not have the weather stations unless someone GAVE them to NHRA and then its to much work for them to use and keep track of data. Can you just see Rick Stewart trying to use one at a National event.....LOL. He dosent like the sporstman racers anyway. They just "MUCK" up "HIS" starting line.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Bob
Sorry if I affended you with the update. The SRAC council spent countless hours of thankless work on this and received and enormus amount of input from interested Stock and Super Stock Racer to present to the NHRA committee. The end result is and always will be there decision and they have the right to change there mind at any time. I felt that an update to these racers was in order. NO this is not the final draft but the basic rule before the example is the NHRA S/SS committiees intent.
No I am not interested in your 2 cents worth since I have seen no input from you to the SRAC council on this matter until now. I will be sure that any further updates that I post will be addressed to interested racers for updates only.

Thanks
Mike Crutchfield D2 S/SS SRAC council member

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I'm sure nobody cares to look at the lowly FWD classes. Although it qualifies for a HP reduction, it's a waste of time to request one for my Turismo, because it's already 150lb heavy for the class, and even with a HP reduction, I'd still have to add 500lb to get to the next class. The lower class breaks are SIX lbs per hp different. The fast guys don't want to go to .75 or 1 lb breaks because they'd have to carry so much weight... why's it ok for us and not for them?

NHRA DF/S... 150lb heavy, runs -.30 under
IHRA FF/SA... 80lb heavy, runs -1.000 under (-.95 under the old NHRA FF/SA class)
...something wrong with this picture?

Hey buddy, spare a buck for titanium parts? :rolleyes:

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Michael, for what it is worth, I think Stock probably should have one pound weight breaks, from AA on down, starting at 7.0 pounds per HP.

It probably wouldn't work for Super Stock with the high HP ratings some engines have for Super Stock.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Guess I didn't read close enough. I assumed they meant uncorrected times at altitude tracks. Too many bogus corrected records on the books. We don't need hp factors based on an altitude corrected et. I've run quicker uncorrected at Amarillo Texas (3800') in great weather than I could at Tulsa which is 670'. Hope they don't use corrected times. You can tell they have worked hard on this. I appreciate it.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

In regards to altitude tracks now being included, does the -1.200 under mean -1.200 under the sea level or factored Index?

My class, DF/S. 15.60 sea level Index. 15.99 at Las Vegas. At Vegas, would I have to run 14.400 or 14.790 to get hit?

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Mike here is my input for the SRAC, Do you guy's REALLY listen to the racer's ?
I did put my input, is it this Forum you guys use for input ? My input was a signed
Petition that was presented to us in the staging lanes at a Div7 race that was going to our
SRAC members that was asking to put all these new combos in there own class for next
season, So what do you guys do! ONCE AGAIN EVERYONE GETS SCREWED!!! PERIOD.
So all you whinnersss that cant work on your S--T and make it run have won again, Im sorry
but this is no longer PERFORMANCE BASED RACING, and you will be lucky to see me at
any future NHRA races.


BTW if the answer to the question about using this forum for input on the AHFS is YES!!
You guys are just as messed up as the system!!!

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Alan, your thoughts on the weather issue have merit, but they need to keep it simple, adjusting for weather has so many variables and extra work involved that it ain't happening. You are beating a dead horse on that issue. good and bad weather happens at all altitudes and tracks over time it evens out. And yes I have been bitten by it and got hp and I am dealing with it.

I think this is a step in the right direction generally. The biggest moves are that all the lodrs runs count and I think what I am seeing is that runs at altitude count using the altitude index. All good in my book.

I am unsure how this affects hp on stick cars, just trying to decipher it. I think that in many cases the stick combo will get hit also, and I agree with that.

Mike, Thanks for your post and hard work on this.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Super Stock already has full-pound breaks for 'I' on down. Given the high HP ratings, I can see keeping .5 break or .75 breaks for the very highest Stock classes, but agree that it should go to full pound breaks at some point. Super Stock starts it at 10lbs... sounds pretty close to me.

How 'bout... (May as well re-letter if you're going to re-do weight breaks... no need for a "AA")
A 7.25-7.74
B 7.75-8.24
C 8.25-8.74
D 8.75-9.49
E 9.50-10.24
F 10.25-10.99
G 11.00-11.99
H 12.00-12.99
I 13.00-13.99
J 14.00-14.99
K 15.00-15.99
L 16.00-16.99
M 17.00-17.99
N 18.00-19.24
O 19.25-20.49
P 20.50-21.99
Q 22.00-23.00
R 24.00-or more
with indexes set commiserate as necessary...

Does this even get discussed? This would pare down 10 classes, and generate some more heads-up runs -- something all of us performance-oriented Class Racers want, right? (Combine sticks'n'autos and you've really got something... 'course Rome wasn't built in a day, even though it looks like it.)

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Mike I appreciate you giving us a look at the preliminary version.

Thanks

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

If Stock and S/S were to ever go to one pound classes, you'd almost have to make it that a car can run it's natural class only. Reason being, take a 396/375 Camaro in B/SA, rated at 390. Under the current rules, it can run A and C also. On one pound classes, that's 780 total pounds of adjustable weight. Almost no car would (legally) have that capability. It would even be worse for a car that runs SS/BA, like a '64 Hemi. 500 hp rating = 1000 pounds to move to SS/AA and SS/CA if there were 1 pound classes. So making a car run it's natural class would be a good thing (and easiest) with 1 pound classes.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I would say it'll be whatever it reads on your time slip. Just like Comp. So a 14.79 at Vegas would get you an automatic hit. They already tried to give HP at factored tracks this year. You're right though, it probably does need some clarification.

I heard they are going to redo the altitude factors to make them closer to sea level, but I also heard they were going to set the automatic hit at .85 under.


-Toby

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Mark,

The new AHFS didn't change that much. They really only changed the automatic hit from 1.25 to 1.20 under. They also added the sliding scale for runs more than 1.25 under to bring an out of whack combo in line faster.

The trigger for review stayed at 1.00 under just like last season. That's 1.3 under the old index. The trigger used to be 1.15 under the old index which is .85 under the new index.

So the trigger is .15 softer and the automatic HP hit is .10 softer than it used to be.


-Toby

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I agree with Mark, That is why all the so called new stockers should run in FX classes , with the parts and mods they have they are really not what they are being call. In some cases they are crate motor cars. They should run FX just like the FI class cars did until they got sorted out. This is going to make a bigger mess .

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

As you all know the SRAC doesn’t make the rules we just try and represent you and communicate your thoughts and ideas to the powers to be at NHRA. NHRA did listen and take some of your/our input into consideration when designing the new AHFS and any SRAC rep will tell you this has been work in progress and reflects a long month of working together.

The new AHFS isn’t perfect and will never be perfect for everyone and every combination but I personally think it’s a step in the right direction.

Adjusting runs based upon the weather at the time of the run to equal the playing field is impossible and we will never see that. The beauty of the new AHFS is it takes averages from all the runs and in all conditions. By including LRDS races this increases the number of runs from 23 races to around 64. So the data will better represent the true performance of an engine combination and average the great weather days at Vegas from the hot humid days of tracks at Columbus.

As for which index is NHRA using for altitude adjusted tracks. We need clarification on that BUT if you read the current AHFS it reads the same and this year at Vegas they factored cars based upon the local Vegas index. So cars that ran 1.25 under were hit on Tuesday UNTIL NHRA exercised the other new language in the rule which reads “the decision to adjust horsepower or to increase the index will be at the discretion on the AHFS Committee”. When NHRA did take something into consideration for the cars they hit because they took the HP off them a week later. What does that mean and how will they use that who knows. But it does also allow them the discretion to add HP to combinations they feel is not adjusting quickly enough.

For the record, surveys were done and submitted to NHRA sharing with them that the majority of racers would prefer if the new combinations be put into their separate class until they get properly adjusted just like they did with the FI cars were years ago. That doesn’t look like that is going to happen

Kent

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Why doesn't NHRA just factor all the new cars with right HP. Then we would't be in this mess!

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Nice post Mark. You can come run T/S or T/D with us?? Kidding......

Thanks for the info Kent. Is it possible for us to see what data is being used for the changes implemented? Are they taking into consideration sub sea level conditions also? Maybe I missed it but where there surveys done on Class Racer or another site? I know it is too late for changes or opinions so I will stop here.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Sounds good to me ! One class ONLY......the natural one and 1 pound breaks. Sticks and Automatic together. Small wt. adjustment allowed for the lower classes for trans used. It just MIGHT bring back some sponsors so a class win would be worth something.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I couldn't have said that it any better myself

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

X 2 Here we go again !

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I have one question regarding using altitude adjusted runs. I'll use my car as an example here. My car runs SS/NA. At sea level my index is a 12.15 at Las Vegas my index is a 12.45. Let's say I run an 11.24 on the timeslip. This would be -1.21 under the index. At sea level this means I'd receive automatic horsepower. However, when you correct that run to sea level which is what is done when setting a record it only equates to a 10.96 and change. That wouldn't trigger automatic horsepower.
So what is NHRA going to actually use for a figure -1.21 altitude run or -1.19 under sea level index? If I was setting a record at the divisional it would be corrected to the 10.96 and that's what would show up as the record. Can any commitee members answer this?

Rick Ryan