Class versus brackets winning a round
 

I know my answer but if winning a round with a dial in is what is exciting and the costs are out of sight why maintain tech , rules and classes? BBC in a Chevy II or a Hemi gets there first and comes back to run second round. Are we making too much of Class rules and tech of motors?
Quickest SS/AH, Fastest T-Bolt, quickest Vette what % really care?
If anyone can compete with a DIal in is it time to just run em? no tech just no NO2. What % of overal racers care about making a rule based SS or S motor car?

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

I think you should just throw in the towel & walk away from anything and everything associated with Class racing. The reasoning and rational does not matter, It's obviously not for you. Misery loves company and I refuse to share in your misery by participating in your poll.
I hope others do the same.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Huh?
My answer has not been given on the poll but winning either is great but Class wins are still at least 100% better. JUst wish NHRA racing hadnt gotten so diluted and expanded in an attempt to allow "everything and anything" that getting a 6 or 8 car class count is unusual.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

My thoughts are:
Class racing is just a bracket race that cost way much more than a bracket race. Kinda like bracket racing for show cars.
Chip

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Chip,
If you are talking about the cost of the actual race/event then you are partially correct. However, if you are talking about the cost of the entire racing operation then I strongly disagree, Class racing can be as cheap or expensive as you want it to be, just like bracket racing. Yes, if you go the inexpensive route, you will probably get whacked in a heads up run, unless you go the Bob Dennis / Bob Shaw route, and do your research to find an under factered car. In this case, you can do well, or even crush your opponents in a heads-up run. However, if you just have to run a Nova/Camaro/Mustang/Challenger/Duster of the 60s/70's vintage, then you better bring your "A" game...and your wallet to the race. Your choice. Ask Ed Fernandez or Daran Summerton about their cars. Daran has been pretty darn fast in his old U car. To each his/her own.

How much does a 4.60-5.50 bracket car cost?

The biggest difference is the rules. Personally I like working within a given set of rules and racing against others who hold my same values, to me that is the challenge.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

I see Chip is wearing his Snell 2010 helmet and Kevlar firesuit today...

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Personally I like working within a given set of rules and racing against others who hold my same values, to me that is the challenge. , Bill Grubbs

Wow, I couldn't have said it better. This is why I am building my car to race.

Steve

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

....and I also like the minimal amount of electronic driver's aids in Stock. :)

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Wasn't until they dumbed it down with soft indexes.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Hit the indexes another .80 and you'll still be bracket racing, just with less cars. Yippee. :rolleyes:

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Dick, I don't understand what it is that you are asking. A win is a win, they're all good, close ones, single ones, easy ones, ugly ones and heads-up ones. I don't have to go through my personal likes and dislikes again so let me just say that I like playing with strict rules and no money. I've always bracket raced my class cars and I've done fairly well. I like to win class but I'd rather win the eliminator and isn't that the real reason for being at a race?
Oh BTW, I've got the Worlds Fastest Stock Turbo Sunbird, NA Sunbird, Straight 6 Chevy and NA 301 Pontiac and all of that BS won't buy me a cup of coffee. Winning rounds and races will.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Stock - Super Stock is an addiction like it or not, quite possibly as strong as drugs, or gambling. Everyone has different levels of addiction and bank accounts has a affect on this issue. I currently am looking at running a points race and the Gators and that's about it only because I consider that an expense that would incur on any weekend getaaway. I use to run every Divisional and 3-4 Nationals but there is ZERO incentative for me to go out and make my car any faster to win maybe $200. It is a shame because I love class and the people who really try and work on their cars. The addiction is no longer what it once was and whether people realize it or not the same people who bitch none stop on here is just a natural reaction in their addiction withdrawls. See ya in the lanes, when I can.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

That about says it all.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

I agree. Hit it right in the spot that hurts.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Stock and superstock are what they are for a reason. If you want to bracket race then there are places around every week to go to. You can put any engine in any car and have a good time and if it is too much of a pain to follow the rules or you cant stand the heads up game then go bracket racing. You can go around and tell everyone look how fast my 502 dressed as a 396 is for example. For the rest of us that enjoy bulding a vehicle within a set of rules let it be.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

While I totally understand the argument that folks like Chip present that Class racing is just a glorified bracket race, it does not keep me from finding the little SuperStock racing I have been able to do and what I was able to do in the past much more satisfying that bracket racing. Heads up racing for class is yet in another league of its own way up there for me.

Of course it may be like another racer here that many of you know said when I told him that a based on improved performance an investment another racer had made in a car had been a wise one. The answer was "I don’t know if any investment in drag racing is a wise one"! Both racers are still spending big bucks racing Stock and SuperStock.

So I am a wanabe continuing to try and get an engine together that can at least run the index in the heat, but if anyone else wants to bracket race go for it, it’s certainly no easier to win.

Bill Lamb
IHRA 4340
NHRA TPD (Comp License transfer not quite as easy as it sounds)

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

For me, nuthin beats the sound of a nasty stock or superstock engine, nuthin. Worth the effort ,right there.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

They aren't bracket racers. They are CLASS racers... Apparently there is a difference...

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Bill,
Compare apples to apples here.
There are stockers for sale all day long and the majority are $20,000 up for a 9 inch tire no-electronics race car.
A 9 inch tire bracket car is half that price.

Yes a 4.50-5.50 bracket car will cost you much more than that. I will give you that point in the argument.

Let me ask you a question. When you converted over to a BBC how much did that motor cost you? In fact I think you have one for sale don't you. I will bet you 75% of the no electronics cars around here cost less than your motor!!!

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

What is a 4.50-5.50 car?

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

I got a few of those Class (not eliminator) Wally trophies, can you get one of those bracket racing? Please tell me where. I don't remember any shoe polish on my car during those Class runs, was I bracket racing? I'm confused......

If its just a bracket race, what am I doing wrong? Someone, please help. I lost a few of them "heads up" rounds this year during the eliminator, was it because I didn't have any shoe polish on the window for those runs? Since it's just a bracket race, someone please help me with my dial in my next heads up run, please..........pretty please....Also, I can't figure out how the other person broke out more, going further under that dial/index line on the time slip, and still beat me in a "bracket race"....maybe I should just give this **** up....its too confusing.....

When I go to a race with Class, I go to win Class first, then the eliminator (sorry Billy, but on the bright side there are still some young racers still performance oriented or maybe we just hate our money). Some chose differently and that is fine, some have different goals, but it isn't just a bracket race. There were lots of heads up runs this year for the guys chasing points that had a real impact, just like the previous year.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Nice post Matt!

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Like second round with Bridgewater and Cummings at Vegas. May have saved Burton's bacon!

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Well said Matt.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Matt,
You make some good points. HEADS UP is HEADS UP no way around it, but when you put shoe polish on the window it's still a bracket race.

THose class win Wallys are neat too, but you can get a wally or "iron girl" at bracket races now. I have 21 from IHRA races ranging from bracket races, division races,National events, Division champs, and World champs.
IHRA does'nt give wallys for class wins they give plaques. I've got boxes of those too. Got my first one in 1980.
Guys don't get me wrong. I love class cars. I have all the respect in the world for those of you that do that kind of racing. I just wish you would show bracket racers the same.
Chip Johnson

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

There is something extra exciting about a heads-up race, first to the finish line wins. It's like a little slice of Pro Stock for the sportsman racer.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

And that right there is half the reason it worries me to go bracket racing sometimes. There is some serious junk at most local tracks, I'm not saying all are or even 20%, but there are some cars that I flat out wouldn't want in the other lane. I have never, not even once felt that way in Stock or SS.

For me building a bracket car is easy, follow less than a page worth of safety rules and that's it. What's the fun in that??? Class racers get as much enjoyment out of their cars themselves as they do driving them. I'm not saying that bracket racing is easy, just that mechanically, they are easy. No challenge at all. Hell i could have a nice C5 corvette to drive every day, that would be a great bracket car.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

How many of you guys would class race if you had to win class to race on Sunday the way it was back in the good ole days?

I remember those days.

I bet a lot of you don't.

I also bet you would put street tires on those Camaros and Novas and show up at the Local Sonic on Saturday night instead of trying to out run those DP's and CJ's

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Chad,
I agree.
Chip

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

This whole subject can be summed up in one sentence:
Class racing isn't for everyone.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Agreed but the discouraging part is the lenghts some Stock/SS racers go to in order to avoid a heads up confrontation. I've never seen any bracket racer do that.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

That game ends with time trials. Try to pick who your going to run (or avoid) with 75+ cars all changing the order around at random. We qualify and the ladder starts with first round not second. As for class eliminations, I agree with you to a point and NHRA needs to deal with that. A simple general rule on who runs who with previous ET as a determining factor would help cure that problem.

TP

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

You're not serious are you?Some bracket racers are masters at avoiding running certain others.Years ago at Westhampton I won heavy two weeks in a row.I had a habit of being the first one in the lanes.Well the next week I got in the right lane and everyone proceeded to line up behind me.Same thing used to happen at Englishtown when I ran Pro ET.
At least S/SS guys do it in tech when classifying.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

The key is "WHEN", when a class racers puts show polish on his window. Tell me, "WHEN" does a bracket racer take it off his window? I do like your focus, the approach is correct, because as a class racer, it is a matter of "when", because it doesn't happen all the time and there are specific instances when we run a whole race within a race (like class eliminations after qualifying where we don't use it), then later, when it is necessary, we use show polish for those special bracket runs.

Bracket racers are the same to me as guys who race in a heads up only eliminator (pro or sportsman level), they each have a different, SINGLE focus. In S/SS, there is a duality at work and you need both skills (driving and performance) to win (and I'm taking high car count divisions like 1 and 3, no disrespect to the other divisions or those running cars in less populated classes). Sure, you can make it through a race without a heads up run, but it is unlikely a World Champ won't have one or be effected by a heads up run in some manner during a season. (Please don't response that a bracket racer has performance issues/concerns, they have no necessity to get every last ounce of efficiency out of their car within strict limitations that will be verified, and we both have the same consistency issues.)

For me, INDY is the pinnacle for S/SS, you need performance to get in, performance for class, and you also need driving (those bracket skills) for much of the eliminator. Any racer who can put together both the performance and bracket skills together has my attention and respect. When you bracket race, is there a qualified field where some don't make the eliminator? No, oh, must be that performance issue again for class racers....lets just ignore it, it's just a bracket race, right? And, yes, I have been at a divisional with a full field in stock where racers didn't make the field. Yes, we have been to Indy and not had our cars make the eliminator and we don't complain, we work harder on our performance. Why? Because it's not just a bracket race.

I don't look down on a racer who has a single focus (bracket/heads up only), but I do look up to a S/SS racer who can do both with repeated success. Any serious racer/fan has seen what someone like John Shaul (just one example) has done the past two years. Won national events (I think both on the west coast had heads up runs, one with multiple heads up runs), won a divisional event (don't think he had any heads up runs), and many Class wins along the way.

Sorry, but I think it's harder, and I have more respect, for a driver and their team who not only has to complete in a bracket style race, but also must be ready to go from a bracket round to a heads up run and back again. It is hard enough to do one thing well in racing, but S/SS guys have to do two things well and the ability to do both is the challenge in these classes, that's why it isn't "just a bracket race".

I would still show up if only class winners got to race in the eliminator. If that was the case, then I'd give a **** about what NHRA does with the AHFS. It's not, so I'll continue to play that game as well as the ladder game, sometimes avoiding and sometimes seeking, LOL.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

I do, I have, and would certainly do it again.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Another thing.Sometimes we do time shots on Fri,and especially here in Div 1,we sometimes go out Sat right into eliminations.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

Ed,

Chip is referring to fast 1/8 mile bracket cars. I live in the same area as Chip and starting in the mid 80's the cars got too fast for most of the tracks in central and eastern NC as they were built in the late 50's and early 60's, so everything went to half track racing due to lack of shutdown area. Racers started building their cars for 1/8th only and as other new tracks were built or revamped they were designed for 1/8 mile only. Aside from Rockingham I think only Fayetteville has 1/4 mile capability in NC anymore for regular brackets and there are at least 15 tracks I can name in NC alone-all 1/8 mile. One track in Jacksonville tried 1000 ft for a couple of events 10 years ago and car counts were down and racers complained about having to change the gears in their cars, so they went back to the 660. I think one track is only 500 feet or so.

Quite a few rear engine dragsters here locally running 4.20-4.60 and door cars in the 4.70-5.30 et range in the 1/8th.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

BIG difference between class racing and brackets.Bracket racers get to leave with the big check or cash in hand and class racers have to jump thur hoops to get payed.

joe mocci

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

That doesn't happen around here Ed. I don't normally run Pro bracket but last race we were 4 wide in the lanes. They have a formula to mix up the cars. Even as the lanes moved up I had no idea who I'd run as they will pull several from one row then 1 from the next. I know a lot of the "heavy's like to go up last though.

As for S/SS, why do guys try qualify on the opposite side of a ladder than a similar class car they know is faster. Seems like trying to avoid a heads up to me and that is well after tech and classifying.

Re: Class versus brackets winning a round
 

The hiders usually came in near the back of the lanes,at least when I ran Pro,which eventually was called Brk 2,supposedly no electronics.That's when I called it quits,around 1991.Then the electric generation came in.
You're right about guys laying it down in qualifying.How can you stop guys from dumping at 1K feet?
It's a shame that all the game playing goes on,but that's the way of the world now.
Joe,you're right about the cash part.