Could Super Modified been different if?
 

Looking back at the Car Craft concept of Super Modified. Could things really have been different if certain rules would have been enforced or never changed? When did it go really down the slippery slope of money/ technology? To me it started with the SRD Chevy II's and eventually by the Arlen Fadely FoMoCo/Super Stock Magazine backed Maverick. The class started out to be somewhere between super stock and modified and today has morphed into a "junior pro stock" class. Was the original intent of the class shear genius on Rick Voegelin's part........or just a pipedream for a doorslammer's panacea?

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

I really don't think, back in the day, that it was ever the intent for Super Modified to be what it is today.. BUT.. with Comp Eliminator being the most innovative class on the planet, and chassis builders being what they are today, the evolution of Super Mod took place..

I don't consider Super Mod to be Junior Pro Stock, as that spot has already been taken by the full bodied altered classes.. but I would definitely agree that the cost of putting together a Super Mod car has become ridiculous.. and unfortunately, because of index adjustments, Super Mod racers will have to spend even more to be competitive..

I feel that eventually, and with today's economy, the cost will bring Super Mod, and Comp itself, to a grinding halt.. just my opinion

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

The "original intent" of Super Mod was to provide an entry level set of classes to compete in Modified Eliminator without the cost of Tunnel rams/multiple trick carbs or ported heads-extensive engine/body modifications etc

These were the basic rules as I remember them

There were 3 classes of V8 engines

A--big blocks only
B-canted valve head engines-basically small block Ford
C-inline valve head engines-all other V8 engines

Following were the basic rules

All had carb restrictions

tire size restrictions

limited to a fiberglass hood no other liteweight body parts unless originally OEM factory equipped

Full interior/exterior in all cars

Tires(rear) basically had to fit in the wheelwells 10.0 or 10.5 if I remember

Engines had to fit in the engine compartment without extensive massaging of sheetmetal-Factory engine had to match body used (ford/ford) etc

Stock valve jobs NO porting/polishing of heads

Minimum weight per class restrictions

No Vegas/Pintos little cars basically ChevyII/Nova--Firebird--Camaro--Mustang---Maverick--Aspen--Volare --cudas/darts etc. type cars


That was it!!!!

Worked great until Rickie Smith, MikeEdwards and Arlen Fadely showed up with the Mavericks next thing ya know they allowed port matching then milled air horns 5 speeds etc. and ya know the rest of the story there was no more ECONO in super Modified.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

They could still do it today with spec heads policed by the manufacturer, but it would take the money out of it. A sort of econo-mod installed in comp. Someday, they will have to look at it or it too, will pass like mod. eliminator.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

Maybe some of us need to refresh our memories
http://www.competitionplus.com/2006_...rmodified.html

Maybe the biggest mistake was dividing it into 3 categories(A,B,&C).

Another mistake was not limiting it to "pony cars"

Another mistake was not making it more of a spec 302 type (3 "x4") motor with an "accepted" list of OEM casting number heads,etc.

Another mistake was probably lifting the 10.5 tire rule too.

The people with big money to spend went after that class like white on rice.......while Jon Kaase, Ron Hutter, Roush, and others just smiled.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

No, milled air horns are not accepted. The 4+1 Doug Nash trannys were 4 speeds .........but essentially you are right. The econo intent lasted 1 season.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

Sounds like, if they had left it alone, it would have survived.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

Some of the rules listed are wrong.
A, B & C were lbs/cubic inch.
Seems like a was 8.5 lbs, B was 9.5 lbs and C was 10.5 lbs.

A/SM did not have to be a big block. I took a shot at it with a 400" sbc.

B/SM did not have to be canted valve engines, still lbs/cubic inch. Lots of 331" sbc there.

C/SM was allowed canted valves one year. Fadley won C/SM at Indy that year but was bounced due to a displacement error. His crank was not what he ordered and he failed to measure it. Something like one cubic inch big at tear down. Voglen should have won. Fadley took him out early. I was dead late in the class semis, and an eleven second car ended up winner when Fadley was tossed. Rick Voglin was robbed. Next year C/SM was inline valves only. Seemed like C/SM had like 30 or so cars at Indy that year?

IHRA had Super Mod as a heads up eliminator at 10 lbs. Looser head rules, 11.5" tires and 850 carbs instead of NHRA's 750 cfm, 10.5" tire rules. Any GM head castings allowed. Rickey Smith pretty much ruled there.

NHRA allowed certain number 750 cfm carbs, pretty much same as SS rules there, but the choke butterfly & shaft could be removed.

Cylinder heads had to be assembly line available castings, no "Bowtie", "Turbo", etc. Porting allowed was chambers, and 1" below the bottom of the valve seats in the bowls, and 1/2" back from the intake flange for port matching. Any valve size.
There was a difference in heads. I had four sets from big name shops doing Modified heads. Won't name them all, but Lee Shepherd's were nearly a tenth quicker than anybody else's. They showed much better on my flow bench too. Shows how criticle the valve job & seat/bowl area is.

Btw, the Fadley & Mike Edwards car is one and the same.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

Seems to me that it could be done today, with, say, the Brodix spec head, cars 75 and earlier, to give the old cars a showplace. Not much oversight, have a Brodix rep there to say yea, or nay. Check cubes, tire size, and fuel. Also, make the drivers have to clutch between gears, could be checked with rollbar mounted camera. I know Knoxville Ia. does it in 360 sprints, and is 20,000 cheaper, and a bigger turn out then 410. No one would have a head advantage. Is it possible? What you think Ed? At the divisional level.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

Well I had it kinda right hell it was about 30-35 years ago-we pitted next to Vogelin at the Winters first big race for that car---it was basically a car straight from a used car lot with motor/trans/wheels added-only ran Ihra part of one season-we ran M/P anyway and tore down Fadely every chance we got ,more of a harassment kinda thing than actually looking for anything--hell we new he was legal just snooping--we made him take off door upholstery panels /pull a head on one side to check for porting and check the stroke on the other side---

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

Maybe it was the demise of Modified Eliminator itself that made the "wheels come off" the class. Those who chose to run Comp needed upgrades ($$$) to keep up with others running Comp.
If you think the original concept of this class would work today you ARE dreaming.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

The DEMISE of Modified was caused by NHRAs actions just like Pro Stock Truck---Modified always had great participation no matter where a race was !!!!! Comp at the time was somewhat similiar to what ya have now altereds/dragsters/funny cars etc... BUT without the full bodied vehicles---Super mod today would make it IF ya leave out the front wheel drive conversions to rear wheel drive configuration and maybe put a year age limit on those vehicles----also no sheet intake manifolds /restrict cylinder heads to only a few part numbers per OEM manufacturer/tire size restrictions and liteweight body parts like maybe a fiberglass hood only-- either a small or big block with a single un altered 4 bbl carb size determined by class on a cast alum intake manifold/ no fuel injection either OEM or aftermarket / with either an automatic or stick trans and slicks that have to fit in unaltered wheelwells-- might work ???

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

The original rules we ran under after they restricted C/SM to inline valves and before they killed off Modified Eliminator were fine if they had just left them alone.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

You...are CORRECT....Sir!

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

I was with Fadely at 99 % of those races, some peoples memory seem be off as they get older! The only place the door panel ever came off the car was at Edgewater WCS meet in June of 1977 and only ! (ONE) head was ever pulled at ony teardown period and that was at Dave Danish requist, he was filling in for Marty Barrett who was sick at that race. Marty was still Div III tech director. NO ONE EVER PUT UP $$$ FOR ANY TEAR DOWN ON THAT CAR FROM 1975 TO THE END OF 1978 WHEN EDWARDS BOUGHT THE CAR! If you have any questions you should contact Fadely @ affadely@mindspring.com or I can provide his phone #. THERE IS ALOT OF BULL $S on the information bellow!
Ralph
.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

I guess ya dont remember T christain ? I was at Edgewater and remember that teardown Pat Sullivan put up the $$$ and we all stood around laughing about it too!!!

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

and it was Jim Stevens, Fadely, Jim Elean for Div 5 Rickey never ran NHRA S/M only time he came to NHRA was in D/MP with 2 4 barrels at INDY can not remeber if it was 77 or 78!

Heads were ported 1 inch down from valve seat and 1/4 inch intake port match.
Carbs were were never allowed to have Air Horn milled in NHRA
1975 only one 1 class A/SM in 76 it went to 3 A, B & C

In 1976 you could run Canted Valve in C/SM as Fadely Ran Div 3 that way most of the year

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

Tony or Pat never put up any $$$ other wise Fadely would have got It! After the tear down Danish did ask Tony and Sizemore if there was any thing else they wanted to see. If you were were there you should have remeber Tom Rider help Fadely as he went down there with US!!!

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

an eleven second car ended up winner when Fadely was tossed
Mike Urley of Urley Brothers fame who passed away a couple years ago down in Flordia he was from Seymour Ind and a very goog friend of Glidden's

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

Sounds right to me.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

Well, first, I think Ralph is correct. Many of you have your facts wrong.

Ed Wright has most of the rules correct.

Credit for the class has to go to Rick Voegelin and the Magazine coverage and his car as the first Super Mod car. (Still has it too, I've seen it )

My first year was in '76. Was lured into the class (B/SM) exactly as the rules were laid out. A chance to run in Modified with less knowledge and investment.
Was runner-up at the US Nats. for class to Dempsey Hardy.

In '77, was runner-up again to Arlen Fadely, who went on to win the US Nationals. A great accomplishment in a class only around for 3 years at that point.

Finally won the B/SM class at the '78 US Nats.

Remember, in those days, you didn't win class, you went home.

Arlen Fadely and I were very competitive all those years but good friends to this day.
Good times and a great class.
Worked hard and had fun.

FJ Smith

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

Not trying to rock the boat but I'm pretty sure that Rickie was in the final with Ian Landies at Suffolk, either '77 or '78. Can't remember if it was the points race or the Little Guy Nationals.
Bob Rice

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

and Walt Siler won C/SM
There were 21 C/SM cars at Indy that year.....can you imagine that?

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

At one point 77 or 78 he tried to run D?MP with 2 4v carbs and 5 Speed with big tires which ever year it was he also showed up at US Nationals but couldn't win Class

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

Move the current /SM cars back to /MP classes, and I agree with '75 and older, similar rules to the old way....A, B, and C (maybe a D class for V-6). No aftermarket heads, transmissions, or ladder bar/4 link suspension. Sticks would be limited to vintage T-10, M-22, A833, or Tremec 5 spds with single disk, non-tuneable clutches. A weak link like these transmissions, and true 10" tires with stock suspension would keep the big horsepower packages in check. Just my opinion.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

This post shows how stupid people can be, pull a head on one side to check for porting and check the stroke on the other side--- Why would you do some thing like this but if you have the head off one side and were to check the stroke on all four cylinders the other bank would be the same
pass side---------------drivers side
4----------------------------8
3----------------------------7
2----------------------------6
1----------------------------5
the above chart shows which cylinders are on same journal fo crank just this about this if the Tech guys were not smart enough to figure this out???






Originally Posted by FED 387
Well I had it kinda right hell it was about 30-35 years ago-we pitted next to Vogelin at the Winters first big race for that car---it was basically a car straight from a used car lot with motor/trans/wheels added-only ran Ihra part of one season-we ran M/P anyway and tore down Fadely every chance we got ,more of a harassment kinda thing than actually looking for anything--hell we new he was legal just snooping--we made him take off door upholstery panels /pull a head on one side to check for porting and check the stroke on the other side---

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

I agree meant to say Bore not Stroke my apology--Bore sizes could have been different from one side/cylinder to another---ever think of that??? Ive seen and heard of guys that would always P&G the same cylinder never any of the others but ALWAYS the same one---come to find out it was smaller than the other 7-"some" people can figure out very creative ways to get around the rules--big difference in cubes---can make a huge difference in a pounds per cube class---not saying at all that Arlen was cheating NEVER EVER have said that either-- he is a great guy helped lotsa guys while at Oldsmobile---we all knew he was legal they just were messing with him

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

at 4.060 bore on a small block FORD Boss 302 block it would have been to bore it much bigger!

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

what year did mike edwards race the supermod .


pete boslovitch

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

Yes bought Fadely's car at the end of season in 1978 went on to win a couple National events and was the Last Modified Elim World Champ also won Quaker State cup same year

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

do you remenber a race at marion sd . it was a points meet . mike edwards won and lost after teardown . if i remenber right he lost because of another gray area.

pete boslovitch

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

Exhaust port toungues on the gasket between header and head. Rule did not say you couldn't But did not say you could at that time.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

He got by with those for a while. Suprised me.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

i think the reason for being tossed was that the pieces where not gaskets but where what looked like port plates with ears on them at the top of the port must have been a rule it was not desputed by edwards .we all have our moments i had mind ****

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

It was another header flange plate with that piece welded to it that raised the port. They usually just dropped that as they pulled the header back during tear down.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

You are correct on a flange about a 1/8 thick As I remember Scott Man at MPG mstill makes and sells these Items. BTW he bought the car from Mike later

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

You guys are bringing up some good old memories.I lost to Mike in that final at Marion. Didn't get the news we won till we got home. Never did get the Wally for that win. Those were the good old days.Gary Chomiski

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

You still in Amarillo?

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

There is definitely room for a class such as this TODAY. COST cutter. Any S or SS or Mod chassis with a given motor. Same Wt Heads up Tech winner and R/U.
A single engine builder , single cubic inch. One head casting, One carb,
I would think this would be a cheaper way for S and SS to survive than the High Buck open rules as they have progressed.

Re: Could Super Modified been different if?
 

I agree with Dick, easy to police, easy to afford. Make them all actually clutch and shift so the driver has to be a little bit talented also. It could work.