Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

As I read the threads on the new Mustangs and Challengers. I see that the cars are factory built as a race car. Then taken to a chassis shop, then a body/paint shop, then an engine is purchased from a builder, etc,etc and then in some cases someone else drives it! If you take that senario and win with it, Do you feel like a winner? If you do, I'm happy for you and to each his own. I guess I'm just old school, but I see that as a fan with a check book or a sugar daddy. It tickles me to watch sports on TV and see the fans screaming for their team to win. They feel, that they are a winner if their team wins! When they did'nt throw the ball, catch the ball, hit the ball, etc, nothing, notta, no effort at all, just watch! How can you be a winner, if all you do is watch what somebody else did to win! "The glory belongs to the man in the arena". Now I know there are many out there that would say it's a team thing. I respect that, and agree somewhat, (being a retired career firefighter) and know the importance of the team concept. In the big game, if I'm on the bench or in the dugout all game and the team wins....I'm a winner.....but I sure don't feel like one! (my opinion only) Where has the pride of building your own car gone?

Wade Mahaffey

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

Here we go! :-)

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x 10

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

So I guess Buddy Martin shouldnt be proud of what he did since he owned the cars and never drove them. Or how about almost every NASCAR TEAM there are only 3 owner drivers out there, Or Vinney Barone for spending money to give Biondo a ride in the comp car. I mean my opinion is if you have enough income to do this at that level then let those people do it. Why bitch because someone can afford to do it this way, I cant afford to run a Challenger or Mustang but I dont have a problem for anyone who has WORKED THEIR *** OFF TO MAKE ENOUGH MONEY to be able to buy one. I dont like alot of things in this world but if someone wants to spend 100K to run a stocker then thats their business.

Herb jr

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

Well said Herb

Also some guys choose to have a $300k motor home and trailer.

I am going to tow on a $1500 trailer and race a $100k car.

BTW - I am very proud I have worked and been able to afford it


:-) peace

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

I think some are missing Wades point, I think he's simply pointing out that there seems to be more "check book" racers now than ever before. Maybe it's all the attention these new cars are recieving or just the fact that you can scratch off a check and have a competitive race car right out of the blocks. Most of the racers I know do most if not all of their own work, some because they take pride in doing it themselves, some because they don't have the financial means to have it done for them. Either way is OK with me personally I find a sense of pride in doing most all of my own work, it challenges me and provides an outlet, some folks bowl, golf ect. Don't really care how the other racers do it if they think a 100 large stocker is the ticket than more power to em, I'll just carry on with my junk. Joe

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

Wade, as you know, I have a lot of respect for you as a man and for your fabrication abilities. I grew up in this sport with Dicke Estevez, who build everything from the car to the engine. He fabricated the car, did the body work and painted it. He did minor upholstry work. Even though he was not a transmittion man, he has rebuilt his C6 the night before a race when he couldn't get it fixed but the trans man of the day. He has rebuilt the rear as well. But, having that be said, he also had different engine builders, transmittion men, and rear end men as well. At one point in time, he worked with a can shaft company to help develope FE cams, to the tune of a cam a week. He commisioned a guy in NJ to make a base intake that allowed a 351 Torker to fit a FE motor. As you also know, hin and Alfred did rollbar and tub work to support the "habit". He did most of it because he couldn't affo0rd to pay someone to do it.
I guess what I am driving at is, not everyone can do what you or Dickie, or a lot of other people can do, or they can to up to a point. Most everyone has a fabricator do their suspension, tubes and rollbars. Most have a engine builder, trans man, or get their rear for Strange or Mark Willimans, etc. In alot of ways, these guys that are racing "Factory" car are rebuilding them after they get the car. I know a stock racer that has a competitive older mustang that Ford gave him a body in white, some exterior trim and some interior trim and he still has over $70,000 in the car and it's not finished yet. In hind sight, he wishes he wasn't give the "free" car.
We allo do what we can with what we have, whether it's a Class car, a bracket car, or street rod. Some may look at your roaster and say look at that guy, "guess we all know who has the money". I may know what it took for you to build that car, how much work and time you personlly spend on it, what you sacrificed to afford what you didn't fabricated or all the side work you did to be able to afford it, but the average guy doesn't know that.

Tom Sr.

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

Racers havent done their own work for a long time. When is the last time a racers built his own Super Stock car. And I mean build it not buy a roller and finish it. The days of racers doing all their own work is over unless they are in the business to build cars or motors. How many class racers that are fast build their own motors from TOP TO BOTTOM. Even some of the top engine BUILDERS(haha) in this country are engine assemblers. The days of doing all the work in house is gone due to specialist who do only heads, custom pistons etc. Its all about the money anymore and has been for a long time.

Herb Jr

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

How many racers can say they do not try to buy "going faster" in some form or another.

You know "trick of the week" stuff - or stuff that has evolved (been allowed)

It all a matter of perspective

I look on this as a piece of history not just a car

We will definitely not be the fastest V10 - others will be able to build a real motor


:-) peace

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

Wade,
I understand what you are saying and I do agree there is a certain amount of pride in being a "DYI" type guy. I've been fortunate enough to have God given talents to be a DYI guy in the automotive arena. (some other areas, No) I have found that just because a guy opens his check book and says build it fast and damn the expenses doesn't mean he doesn't have pride in what he is doing. I've seen it with customers for many years. Their pride is based upon ownership, accomplishment or other forms of gratification that they seek. They all feel they have accomplished something and I think they have. First they got off the porch and are running with the big dogs. There are so many people that don't even make an effort to be involved. Second they realize they need to pay their way. It is just like I pay the Heating and Air guy and Plumber and Doctor. I dare not do my own Brain surgery. Looking at it the other way I don't consider myself less of a person than them just because one of my buddies owns a getaway home in Florida or one of my engine customers invites me to his get away Villa in Mexico. They enjoy the fact that my talents give their rides power. I'm going to enjoy the path God has given me through life, use my talents and live with the Joneses as my neighbors. (Jones family with the pool) !!

P.S. I'm sure glad my Heating and Air guy put in that new unit, correctly, 2 years ago so I can type this while being warm and cozy in this 17 degree weather. let's see : what did i pay him for it??

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

herb...dead on with a zero!

1970 is long gone, it's the year 2011.

Count me amongst those that have professionals build their car as well engines and transmissions and I'm in good company with the majority of serious sportsman racers

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

Wow, eveyone was typing at almost the same time!!!

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

Wally Zalak in D1 built his own corvette in 2010 in his garage, welded the cage, installed the rear, suspension,brakes etc..., put his own motor together, the thing is a beauty, may not be the fastest but he built it!! Im sure he takes pride in his car but im sure he wants to win races as well.

Let me ask you guys this, where is your pride that all you do is bitch and complain. You want pride, go out and win the race, money means crap unless your the last one standing.

How many racers whether circle track, road racing or drag racing jump into cars and go out and kick ***!!! Thats pride, get in the car and win. You complain about these factory stockers, how many heads up runs have you had with them, how many are racing in their class?

I built my own stocker a few years back, yeah it was fun but you know what, it was also a bitch, pride for me was trying to go rounds and beat the guys you all whine about. Instead of stock or super stock they should call it whiners and super cry babies because their are more cry babie in this game then racers.

life is not fair, not everyone is dealt the same cards, I wonder sometimes how you guys function in life! May be their should be a mamby pamby forum sponsored by kleenex for you guys.

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

Ready Ed? Stock and SS racing (and pretty much all of Drag Racing) has stopped being a sport in which the participants get their "personal satisfaction" out of "creating and doing" and become a sport of participants who "buy someone elses creations and do".
I am going to guess that (as Andys Dad says) it has just all become a matter of time and you can make more money but not time.
I truely don't care how other people spend their money, it's their money, they made it let them spend it as they see fit. Maybe they get their "personal satisfaction" fix by making their money. I enjoy building things, I like to eat and stay warm and dry too. As long as I can make enough money to stay fed and warm I'm good with having time to build more things to go get my "personal satisfaction" fix with but I'll admit that I'm a throwback.
There have always been "doers and buyers" in racing but money has gotten easier to come by (not for me) in recent years (apparently) and there are just more participants with the ability to "buy" what the "doers" are willing to do.
That being said, if NHRA would make a Class Win count for something again, make winning Class count as a guarantee of a qualifing spot again, grow a set and come up with an immediate horsepower fix for all of the new combos and make the purses something less of a joke, maybe more of us could find less to bitch about.

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

i highly doubt that

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

All these type of threads are really about is those that ain't going rounds and ain't winning races using the excuse that they were outspent.:rolleyes:

What we do ain't cheap nor is easy to be on top. It requires MONEY, lots of it along with dedication, driving skill and some luck!

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

Herb, it's funny that you say that, Sox and Martin were my favorites when I was a kid. They were great pioneers, they learned how to do it, I don't think they just bought it! And Mr. Barone races, drives himself and does very well. I'm sure he paid his dues working on his stuff. I just think that we all would enjoy a win (more), driving a car that we built and/or had alot of hard work in. Having said that, however much you spend and however much you do, it will be my pleasure to sit beside you and compete. We are all competitors, just at different levels and different view points. Sorry if you were offended

Wade Mahaffey

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

HerbJ: You have hit a point that alot of people seem to miss, but there are still some of us out there who still answer the question " Who is your engine builder?" , you are talking to him. Granted, personaly I can't be as competitive as the check writers, but that $5. bottle of shoe polish makes up for that in a big way. It's disapointing that people don't do as much of there own work as it used to be, but time moves on, along with the sport. It's the same as our country, it's service oriented versus manufacturing based now.

Has anyone esle do the math on the Mopar's V-10, it can be as big as 532 cubic inches in stock rules. Rated 450 HP, yah hoo!

Casey Miles
248H Stock?

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

The problem i see with guys building their own cars is the rules have gotten so that most folks can't build their own legal roll cages. You can build motors and trans and rears all day long but cage work can be tricky. As far as someone owing the car and not driving it, in some cases the owner can't drive his car due to medical reasons but still want's to enjoy the sport as an owner. my .02

Chris

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

Wade I'm with you on this. No way could I have a race car or street rod built by some one else. To me it's just as much if not more fun to build them as drive them. I think some people think it hard to do by how high shop rates are but it's really not. I think theres more home built cars out there than people think. Way more bang for your buck.

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

x 2!

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

Herb Jr has the right idea. Do what you can do and stop worrying about the other guys. I have a new DP and no, I can't afford to have everyone in the country work on it and paint it, etc. I would rather do it myself anyway. I built my current car even painted it the first time. I've always built my own motors but have a shop do the machine work. After 10 years I had some extra money so I paid a body shop to replace the quarter fenders and do a nice paint job. My Dp has been to a chassis shop for the cage and rearend because I want it done right and I don't have all the fab tools needed. I will assemble the motor, wire the car, install a trans, gauges, etc myself. I'm also painting the cage, trunk and underside of my car to save money and again because I like doing it myself. Don't put everyone with a DP or Mustang in the big checkbook catagory, I race because I like the sport and I have the ability to do it. I wanted a new DP and to get one and put it together I sold 3 cars I owned, one of them a Super Bee I've had since 1985. I'm not a checkbook racer but I love cars and drag racing so I sometimes give up something to move on to another. Everyone has a different needs and ideas but we are all racers, not enemies.

Dennis

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

I doubt anyone would bitch and complain about how much money is being spent or who built what or if you bought it or not IF NHRA would just put the HP factors where they belong on all of the combos racing today. The new combos are the worst offenders but there are a lot of older combos that need factoring also. It will never catch up due to the the joke called the AHFS and the games the racers themselves play to avoid the factoring.

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

Wade, to answer your question..yes I feel like a winner and I am proud of our accomplishments. I sleep good at night (for an old geezer). Chris and David put a lot of work, sweat and tears in this TEAM effort. David put a lot of money into this project as would anyone building a newer competitive race car. I have build both motors, changed suspension , converters , engine management systems and much more with Davids help. Are David,Chris and I proud of what we have done as a TEAM ? YES ( I said Chris because I know he is looking down saying "Hell yes I'm proud and I knew we could do it")

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

I guess our group is somewhere in this group. Depends on the year. 1958, 1968, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012. What if you got pride and a checkbook? I'm sure proud of yall. It was getting a little slow out here.

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

I am not sure what a "check book racer" is?

I am blessed to be able to spend what I need to to keep up with the guys who have the skills and tools to do it themselves.

I can flop a trans and R+R a motor and even change a 12 bolt. Hell, I use to build my own motors too.

But today I would be foolish to try to compete with top notch engine builders - I do not have the tools, garage space or knowlesdge to build one of todays motors.

I could never build a PRO_TRANS

I use my check book to buy what I can't build and am dam proud of it

I do not go on here and put down those who can do it themselves

I think they have a right to be proud of their accomplishments but so do I. I work my tail off so I can spend what it takes to keep up.

I will say it again - some guys choose to have a $300k motor homes and trailers and a $50k car

I choose to have a $1500 trailer and a $100K car


:-) peace

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

And that's your choice. Nothing wrong with that, everyone's different! Sorry to hear about the delay on your car, I know it's frustrating.

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I wasnt offended at all, but if you look at the big picture there are alot of owners that dont drive. I for one own 2 jr dragsters and have quit racing myself so my kids can, so I'm sort of a car owner now and when my kids won IHRA iron men it was a better feeling than any race I have won.

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I don't care what they spend, or who does it. As long as those bogus hp ratings get fixed.

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I kinda like the hp ratings the way they are. I think I had one heads up in eliminations this year. But then yall know how that memory stuff is.

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I always end up having a few more than that with Lloyd.

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In a closed in carport, somewhere up north! Proudly being home built.

http://www3.telus.net/prash

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Looks good.

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We are in the Pride/Satisfaction/Checkbook group.......We buy what we have to and build the rest......

and I kinda like the current HP factor too....lol

Rock Haas

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

I would say it’s unfair to classify 99% of the guys who have work done for them as checkbook racers. This is 2011 not 1970 were talking 9 second cars now not 11-12 second cars. The skill set required to build a new car compared to yester year is very different. Some examples; look at the chassis work on the new cars how many home builders have the skill to properly tig weld chrome moly tube? How many have a $4,000 welder and all the other fabrication equipment at home? How many guys are willing to try and lay down a paint job with $500 per gallon urethane paint? How many guys are fuel injection gurus? Capable of building a fast durable transmission? AND the new engines are extremely sophisticated compared to the old carbureted ones. I think most do what they are comfortable doing and leave the rest to the experts. You need to be extremely proficient in many more areas today to build a new car without compromising safety, performance or the quality of the build. I don’t think for most that it’s a question of the pride of DIY but the fear of DIY.

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I don't know of anyone that actually builds a complete car in super stock. You have to start with a stock body, you didn't build that. What about stock glass? Tires? Wheels? Original front suspension? Brakes? Engine Block? Cylinder Heads? etc. etc. None of us start with a blank sheet and engineer and manufacture an engine. I think Formula One is about the only race cars that are completely engineered, manufactured and built from the ground up, and they even farm stuff out. We are modifiers by nature. We take things that others have engineered and modify for our specific use.
As far as winning, I would gladly take a win any way I could get it. If it was in my car or anyone else's. I would imagine (considering I have no personal experience with this) that when you cross the stripe and your light comes on you aren't thinking about who painted the car or who welded the cage. You won - time to celebrate! Ashton Hudson SS 4373

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I wonder what the out come would be... IF... they sealed your engine at the scale, and you drove it to the barn. Then, after tear down, you reassembled the engine, and it was again sealed, and you drove it back to your pit.... Here's the catch... the only person allowed in the barn was the driver? Just a thought. JB.

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Our 2009 5.7 DP is a team effort as far as the old school way of building it. Don is the driver, Denny's the tuner and crew cheif and Denny and I work the wrenches. We did buy the MPR rear end kit cause we couldn't make the brackets for the labor, materials or the R&D for the price that Mike was selling it for and we only wanted to do it once. Mike's kit fit the bill and was flawless. (Thanks again Peter) Other than that, we're doing the rest from buiding the roll cage, rear end, engine assembly, header's, wiring, EFI tuning, paint, interior, yada yada. We're just 3 broke guy's trying to build a competitive DP. Our DP car is a labor of love. Doesn't cost us nothing for labor, just parts and material. Like Peter and Mack, we know every nut and bolt on this car. We're to the point of needing money for the transmission and suspention. Anyone interested in an oringinal, fresh restored 64 Dodge Polara 426 Max wedge hard top? One of 5 ever built and only one in this color. I just finished up the long block today.

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Who is your engine builder? .....That's usually a question asked just after you kick
a connecting rod right out the side of the block.....

Re: Where is the pride? Is it just a checkbook?
 

A lot of the touring drivers cant change a spark plug. I remeber when A.B. couldnt tear his engine down at the IHRA finals at Bristol after winning Modified elim. in his G/ED (super stock engine in a dragster) many years ago. He didnt know how to even start. Another racer A.B. had beaten in an early round said he would do it for him. The job was done quickly and he passed and he got the win. Not all who race are mechanical wonders.