How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

This is a reprint from post 85, page 9 from Mark's (A56)post

LOTS TO DIGEST FOR SOME PEOPLE !!!!!!!! Some can't even follow along at all, it seems! Thomas, Ken, Dave and others get it.

I want to post a lot but don't have the time right now, I'm outta town at the frigg'in dyno trying to make more power.

Please understand the biggest point here, This is NOT an NHRA plan, there exists a committee that consists of manufactures and NHRA that sits down to figure out how they spend their money with US, the racers, so that when we do well with their products they can spread the word of success. It's costly and a hard concept to believe that it actually works and they've been meeting for years!!!! They are the ones that actually PAY YOU for winning Class, NOT NHRA, they are the fine manufacturers that posted your awards for using their product, PERIOD............................

Current Class Racing has been diluted over the years and, frankly has no significance to the past, you know, the glory days. Lack of payments to us by the manufacturers has been dwindling for years now ( 10 -15 ) and I'm not surprised to see this new deal in this economy.

It was gonna be THIS or NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!! It may even bring in some more manufacturers because it builds more excitement back to them and their products. Send in ya comments because they do need our feed back, elbeit, (sp) sensible and not self preserving!

REMEMBER ONE THING, follow the money!!!!!
__________________



Now, if you had the job of drumming up financial support for Class racing, how would you present it to the 'cash cows', aka the manufacturers that would like to spend their money to pay US, the racers ??????????????

I'm back home and would love to hear some suggestions as I'm sure Charlie at NHRA would as well. He came up with the plan and it could use a few tweaks, no doubt, but he's open to suggestions.

Trust me, from an informed observer, Charlie and the manufactures are doing their best to SAVE CLASS RACING !!! So should we.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Thanks, Bernie.

Yes,I'll make a suggestion:
Don't use a stick of dynamite to kill a fly.

If the singles are a problem to the manufacturers, then just put them in the four groups and run them off for a lil' wally and the cash.
Easy enough, right?

Now what's with all the 4 races, eight races, 12 , points ,Nat'l champ, whatever?
That deal has a big imbalance built into it that just favors Dan and a few others that go to a lot of races. They should just try the singles combo at first.

It will do nothing else but discourage several more racers that just like to go out a few times a year to a race near them,win class, pay for their entry, and take a shot at the eliminator.
After they're gone ,NHRA will just raise the entries and fees some more on the ones who haven't gone wobbly yet.

This does nothing to save class racing, the way I see it. It just runs off a few more budget racers.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

If you mean contingency and class eliminations.....

There should and could be a better way to tie the marketing success and sales of products to the class racers. I don't think that the measure of the sales of a particular brand or component can be measured with the class runoffs alone.

If the manufacturers actually were ever satisfied with the number of cars that ran for class as their "sales" figures to class racers as a market share, they were not looking at the right thing.

It might have been difficult to give the manufacturers real data that supported this in the past.

I would say that it is not really important to a manufacturer how many cars show up for class, it is more important to know how many bought their stuff and advertised that they bought their stuff. They should not really care how many show up for class, but rather how many widgets they sold because of the class program.

With the ability to have data bases tied to web sites, etc. I think a smart marketing plan from NHRA and for the Manufacturers would include a web site that we could and should register our proof of purchase, class and maybe a picture or bio.

It should include a press release agreement. That way the manufactureres could easily track their sales success and tie it to a class. They could also have access as contingent sponsors to the racer pictures and bios to use on their own web sites. It would drive more sales I think. If a prospective racer was building a car for example, they could click on a category for example and then all the race cars and bios would come up. It would let a racer see the most popular brands or the what the racers that win or have faster cars run.

That in my opinion would help justify their $$$ spent. From that, they could decide if the total spend on a contingency program would be justified. Especially in the eyes of the bean counters. It is real data that could support a good business case.

I think also it would keep the racers accountable to claiming only parts that they bought and could prove that they bought. Whatever the guidelines were.

It would be a more solid structure that NHRA could sell and I think whomever ran it in NHRA would be able to then hold contingent sponsors accountable for payout more easily. It could have feedback tabs from racers and sponsors alike.

I do think NHRA has to allow more flexability to sponsors that want to particpate at a lower level as well. There are not as many big fish out there.

I agree that the system is not going well for us or the sponsors and something had or still has to be done. I just don't think that the new proposal attacks the real issue. It just slows down the death spiral. We need a difubulator for it, not a cough drop.

The good news is that I think it CAN work if we really get the right people with new ideas to try.

I love class racing and the heads up class runs. I want to see it work for all. It is not going to happen unless we can justify it in the eyes of the manufacturers and only if NHRA can commit some real resources to figure it out. I would have thought that with all this so called "marketing talent" they brought in, we could get some ideas going. Maybe as sportsman we are so far off their radar screen that they aren't looking at us as part of the solution.

I myself as a sportman think we carry more weight than we are given credit for in this area. If NHRA would realize it is "drive for show, putt for dough", they might decide to do something about it. There are a lot of racers buying parts that hardly ever show up to run class. That is a big market.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

I agree with Mark! If the main issue is singles, don't take away from the rest of the class by not paying them! Who wants to go to a class race, have 8 cars in your class, and not get any contingency for winning that class runoff? Not me!!!

I do like the idea for grouping the singles! It will make things real interesting!! But how do you pair them up????

I really feel sorry for the stock guys! You're going to have to have a Drag Pack or a Mustang to compete for the money!!!

I can also guarantee that the SS Hemis will not stand for this and will have their own program!

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

If you could do away with NHRA's slush fund from the sponsors, that would change the sponsor's attitude a lot. The fact that they pay for singles is one thing, but posting money that does not get paid to a racer and ends up in NHRA's pocket is another. NHRA claims it the extra money covers the administration of the program and it does, plus a lot more. If this is an area that was and is planned to be a profit center for them (non-profit??) then make it known. Accountability is important and is part of what Jim is talking about. If there really is validity to the ROI for posting contingency that can be proved for the sponsors, then let it be clearly shown. There are no records of what happens in the sponsorship program, but we see NHRA's bottom line and behavior in other areas and that makes us suspect. One benefit of their position as a privately held non-profit entity is that they do not have to disclose such details. If they were true to their "association" title, then those details would be available to the supporting membership. Anytime men can hide their activity from scrutiny by peers, an opportunity for corruption exists. And when an opportunity for corruption exists, someone will come along to take advantage of it.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

What Dwight said is how I feel. If NHRA wants to make things better ask and LISTEN to the racers and the sponsors. I know for a fact that one of NHRA and IHRA's longest running cont. sponsor Turbo Action was not asked why they would not return as a sponsor. I have spoken to Paul and he made a point when he said that he happily put up money for the racers who run his product. But, NHRA wanted more and more money up front and then would cut some classes from the program that would represent his largest group of racers? That made no sence. etc etc. There are companies all over the country who support racers but NHRA and all there red tape will not let the companies put up financial money in such a way that will not be beneficial to both the racers and the sponsors. I think what James said could and should be implemented. There are marketing programs out there to determing all the data that is needed to show the companies where there $ is going and the rate of return FROM THE RACERS....We will see.

Robert

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

I wont make a suggestion again because to many on here have self serving attitudes and I will most likely catch hell for this posting but the point is....the manufactures just can NOT afford to keep paying for the large number of classes combined with the number of NHRA (and other events and other eliminators .....there are more than NHRA races out there being contested for sponsor pay outs) races during a season. Single class runs or not. The problem is in the numbers of seperate pay outs with little or no return for the sponsor. The manufactures post for other eliminators besides stock and S/S. That plus the cost of the "Slush Fund" as one suggested NHRA charges for admin. fee's. WHY would any company want to be in on this bleeding of funds? Its almost the same deal as the Govt spending and the teachers unions. It has to be cut back or its over. The good times are over for awhile. No more freebies ! I know you still dont like the suggestion of less classes but what is the alternitive? Combine some of the classes, get the HP factors corrected ( a biggie), eliminate a few of the less populated and unpopular classes but try to combine the ones dropped to give the racers in those classes a place to play so the manufacturers can afford to become a profitable company again while being part of the family of NHRA and IHRA racng. I doubt NHRA will pay anymore out of their pockets to support our/your habbits. If anything they have made it harder for the little guy to compete with all of the so called "Enhancements". My 2 1/2 cents !

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Dwight you are right on the money with this. The sponsors have been enhanced over the years just like the racers. Back in the early 90's I got $5-600 for a class win. The Ford and Chrysler guys got quite a bit more. The fact that NHRA keeps what money that doesn't go to the racers makes it unlikely to attract more sponsors. I have to think if a sponsor posts money they want it to go to racers and not to NHRA.

Another important thing in your post is the lack of transparency. They don't want anyone to know where the money is going. A non profit like NHRA should be transparent. Why are they being secretive?

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

If this is the way that it is going to be what can we do about it? Nothing. What NHRA could do is at least make it where some of us don't have to pull over a thousand miles to get to a race that we could hope to maybe make enough money to pay for the fuel to get there. How about at least 1 sportsnationals per division? We could always go back to the days when only the winners of class got to race. But that would be going backwards I quess. Just my thoughts. Jerry

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Hmm let me take a shot at this..

1. NHRA stop ***ing the sponsors who want to help the racers and promote their products. Give them an enticing "recession" offer to bring them back and keep the class and eliminator contingency money alive.

2. How about not letting competitors change classes anymore during the year? We all know people do that to get single passes and avoid heads up races or in some cases if they know they can be the fastest car in a given class they will enter that class (you know the case of the ant-eater hoodscoop at indy who was gifted 3 heads-up runs during eliminations). Pick one at the beginning of the year and must stay with it unless you have a second car handy.

3. Maybe make class eliminations a calcutta, if you want to participate you pay $305 entry fee, if you choose not to participate then its only $270 and watch from the sidelines? If you paid and you are the only car in your class on the monday registration closes, NHRA gives you a $35 refund/rebate.

4. If you don't like #3, let the single cars make their passes (together to save time) and instead of giving them the coveted wally, give them the cash. I saw on here they were valued at 200 bucks? Give us $150 and NHRA saves $50. Contingency sponsors can abstain from paying the singles that way but at least the singles can get some financial relief for their efforts. Again let that be racer choice, I know some people love to put Wally's in their trophy room.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

4. If you don't like #3, let the single cars make their passes (together to save time) and instead of giving them the coveted wally, give them the cash. I saw on here they were valued at 200 bucks? Give us $150 and NHRA saves $50. Contingency sponsors can abstain from paying the singles that way but at least the singles can get some financial relief for their efforts. Again let that be racer choice, I know some people love to put Wally's in their trophy room.


Bob,they charge us $190 for an extra one.I'm sure their wholesale price is less than half that.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Schaechter is dead-on.

All sides should be trying to figure out how they increase the value of the contingency sponsor. You'd think they could at least list the contingency claims along with the Class winners, so people would actually know who's using what products. At least in IHRA, you can look that stuff up on the website. Yes, cars have the requisite decals on them, but realistically, most Class winners in NHRA don't get photos in the magazine. (All of them do in IHRA, albeit small) A sponsor should get that recognition without having to take out a "congrats" ad in the magazine. It is in the sanctioning body's interest to do whatever it can for the sponsor, since the sponsor is paying for one of the biggest carrots for Nat'l/Div'l level racing. If no sponsors posted contingency, car counts would drop off a cliff.

That being said, I'm afraid Terry's right, too -- there are too many classes to make Class financial viable (particularly with the lack of coverage the sponsors get for it). But, we're back to the majority of racers not wanting to consolidate classes in any way shape or form ('course they just did it anyway for the FWD cars)... so instead of getting something you didn't want that might make sense (even if we don't like it), you're going to get blindsided by something that you also don't like.

While I understand they had to do something, one of my issues with the new Class system is that you have half the field running Comp-style, and half the field running "regular" Class Eliminations against people in their own class, which should theoretically be more apples to apples. In my opinion, either run everybody in their regular Class, or run all class Comp-style. One thing's for sure: we're likely to see disparities in ratings and indexes a lot easier than with just Qualifying. Don't want to become Comp? Then perhaps some more consideration needs to be given to combining of classes in a thoughtful and reasonable manner.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Less classes?Go to 1lb breaks?

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

To many classes for sure. That figures out to a lot of single runs which the manufactures don't like, and I can't blame them. Why not pay the top 32 qualifiers? That will help the contingency payers with use of product, the horsepower situation and eliminate single runs. May be the manufactures will return to the midway. The way things are now you have a hard time finding racing parts at the track. Someone related to the 90's class winnings. We used to see who is paying go buy what we needed so that we could claim for the year. I was getting $2000 a class win in the 90"s. Certainly made racing a lot better money wise. One of those years I was lucky enough to win class 10 times. Those days are long gone probably not to return. My concern now would be why can't we have better round money? $300 3rd round loser is terrible! 2nd round loser should get his entrance money back and payout per round increased. It is done for Indy. Why not all? Some will say we are not racing for the money. Well with that outlook maybe soon we will be racing for nothing but a trophy.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Various ideas were discussed at length earlier this winter, and summarily rejected. So instead, we're discussing bandaid fixes for a brand new issue.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

So what's wrong with 1lb breaks to cut down the classes?Those cheap ba$tards can pay out less and give out fewer Wallys.
Speakingof Wallys,notice how in the last few years they're giving them out like they're going out of style.First round losers will wind out getting them if they keep up giving them out for any reason.I believe they were giving them out to fans who won contests at Nats.
WTF.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Bernie you can pass these ideas along to Charlie and others,

It would be nice to give the manufactures every possible way to participate. I run a business and am starting a mopar performance parts business, and can clearly see where contigency may not provide the return on investment many must have;

Suggestions;

Class only postings, without the elimins, etc.

small class postings....for example Mark or another small business wants to pay $10 per class win using his headers....

With the new program, allow the manufacturer to post in the currently non-paying 8 if they like.....Not everyone will be able to pony up to the double payout races

For the new championship format give manufacturers the option of contributing towards a purse for the 4 winners....Give them advertising space....the NHRA could pitch in too.

Imagine the response that would follow if the following were implemented:

1/2 contingency payout for the 8 qualifying races(something for the racers)(full even better!)

National Class Champions in the 4 classes get 10,000 a piece

And the 4 double contigency races

NOW THAT WOULD GET ATTENTION.

Hopefully these are constructive ideas.

I am certainly effected by the changes, not a bystander, I am finishing a stick car and a GT truck largely off the old class rules this winter.........

Class racing deserves to thrive, not just survive.

Sincerely

Eric Merryfield
Stock 1883, Superstock 1883

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

I am going to stick this thread to the top, and I would hope that all members keep this discussion civil. Constructive ideas are what we need, if you wish to express your displeasure, please use or start another thread.

I will also list the names of any company that wants to support class racing and has interest in this new program for class racing and its future growth. The list will be in a new thread to be stuck to the top of this forum.

I will start on new page and link it on the main forum for all companies that support class racing once these companies let us know they are interested.

For companies that may read this, Class Racer reaches over 42,000 unique visitors each month with over 200,000 visits from these visitors along with over 2,000,000 pageviews. This is a lot of traffic that's targeted to class racers.

I think it would be beneficial for companies to let class racers know you want there business and are willing to support them.

You can contact me at admin@classracer.com.

Ken Miele

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Thanks Ken!

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Another idea: Can't pay for Class at 12 events? What about posting for Class (as it was previously contested) at just 3 Sportsnationals and Indy... make them a "destination", something even more special. Additionally, pay contingency for National Records. Get people to truly chase performance and reward them accordingly.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Michael , I was under the impression that runs of 1.19 under at Divisionals and Opens (including altitude tracks) would get you an instant hit, thereby putting an end to the majority of record setting.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

I just want to make sure everybody sees this again. Although I heard the sponsors have to pay the minimum posting up front and receive a refund after the minimum is paid out. Maybe it works differently on the divisional level though.

From what I've heard almost all, if not all, of the current sponsors met the minimum posting requirement. So NHRA hardly got any of the unclaimed money.

I don't know how many times I've heard people on here and at the track say "NHRA keeps ALL unclaimed postings." Or "They have to pay it all to NHRA anyway, so why not just give it to us instead." Well, as you can see that's not true.

I think it's pretty simple. If you don't think you can pay out the minimum amount, why become a sponsor in the first place?


-Toby

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Lots of discussion of payouts. Most not willing to allow any "change" in rules in exchange for "saving S and SS"?
WHat is important parts of Class racing to save"
Specs on the motors, brands, stick and auto. New and old bodies, GT style cars?
If there could be a set of goals to move toward to save the S and SS with some flexibility to make some adjustments ?

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Consolidate classes, to an extent, (say, 1.0 weight breaks, starting at 7.0 for Stock) pay points and money for top ten qualifying as well as class wins, contest class at every event, but only pay points and money for contested wins, singling for class only gets a trophy, and only if you run 0.500 or more under.

That gives companies an incentive to pay, because they pay people trying to go fast, and those people buy parts from them. It puts performance back in the eliminator, while still leaving some of the "dial under/break out" intact to keep money from becoming totally dominant.

We need a better balance between performance and "bracket mode" in order to make class racing more attractive from a sponsor stand point.

But it won't happen, the very suggestion of consolidating classes (especially merging FWD classes in) will result in vehement protests. As will the suggestion that class wins and qualifying pay points and money.

The other thing that is absolutely necessary is promotion of the class racing itself. That is something that is even more completely out of the hands of the racers. It has been proven that the classes can put on a show, and draw a crowd, but like anything else, it must be properly promoted, instead of ignored because there is some level of difficulty involved.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Alan - GREAT stuff. I've always felt qualifying well deserved something (even though I am a bottom feeder).

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Post any and all rule and policy changes at least 6 months before they are changed.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Alan, Class can draw a crowd ONLY if there are multiple cars in any class running. If the class has no cars today chances are it never will unless combined with others. Only with PR from track or NHRA.
It has to be done FIRST then the class money can come back. Without the show there is no attraction for a sponsor to get involved.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Yet another reason to have a real *incentive* to set records. We used to get points for up to 2 records a year in IHRA, but that went away. What's the incentive in NHRA, or is it just the certificate/bragging rights?

To be honest, I don't understand the concern over HP hits. You either build something to go fast or not. If you get hit with HP, running just as fast with more weight is STILL an accomplishment, or you go to another class. Performance is all relative, and it's really power to weight, not the ET/mph on the scoreboard. Hey, don't want the contingency money and bragging rights? -=shrug=- Don't set a record. So... why build a fast car in the first place then?

If HP hits are truly a concern, then why the fuss over Class? Same deal. Go fast, get hit. It should be a badge of honor.

$.02,

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Hence the first part of my post, the part that mentioned consolidating classes, at least to a certain extent.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Mike,
The problem is, if we were to decide to take a hit, it makes us less competitive with the combinations in the class that decide not to take a hit.

If you get hit, and the other combinations don't, guess what happens when you meet them heads up in final eliminations? You got hit, they didn't, now they hold the winning hand. Especially if they are already faster than you. Records don't pay points or money, and they'll never pay nearly as much of either as you can win for winning a race.

So, set a record, get hit, don't get paid anything, or very little, at best, and then get beat heads up during final eliminations by the guy who didn't set the record and get hit.

Sure, the record sounds great, especially from the engine builder/crew chief point of view. But from the owner/driver point of view, winning a race sounds better.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Dick? How would "you" suggest they combine my class with?

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Art, What do you want from S or SS?
The discussion in this post is saving S and SS it might not be saving ALL classes, or ALL cars or ALL bogus HP rates as the goal.
Creating a set of changes to provide a better set of rules, better appeal to sponsors and NHRA and manufacturers should be the discussion points.
If a group set up a sponsor group, a set of rules combining the majority of S and SS cars into a limited set of classes and got backing for prizes and attention by NHRA like Mopar did with SS/AH, would you consider moving to one of those classes even if you needed a different combination?
Thats my interest. Overall betterment of the S and SS condition. If it were re starting today we would buy what it takes not wait for a class to be produced for us to race.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Or limit those with agendas that have nothing to win or lose.
And dick you haven't answered the question of where you would put my combo.
I know where I would like to put it. But I'm trying to be constructive.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Alan instead of consolidating classes. That was done to the FWD classes and half the racers quit.
How about not allowing moving up or down. Just run the natural class for the car.
That would increase competition.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

If NHRA is really interested in what's best for the racer, then why do they take the unused contingency money? What do they do with that "free money"? Why don't they make sure the racer gets paid anymore? Jim

Thanks for your input Mark, no wonder sponsors are pulling out. Just ask Turbo Action.

Performance Welding Racing Headers are the best!:D



.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

It doesn't solve the problem of empty classes or underpopulated classes.

You'd still have the same number of cars and the same number of classes.

You'd just be keeping them from moving. And you'd be preventing some cars from moving to a class they actually fit better, while some cars would be in a class they fit better.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

What about this

consolidate classes for class racing

SS/AH - heads up

SS/Stick - race off index - first to line wins

SS/Auto - race off index - first to line wins

SS/Modified - race off index - first to line wins

Any class that has at least 2 cars - Heads Up

Race on Friday down to 2 cars in each class - first round can count as qualifying

Feature class racing on Saturday Night or later Sunday during the Finals.

That would give racers a chance to be part of the show on Saturday or Sunday when you family/friends are more likely to come out and see you.

More Exposure to bigger fan base

Bring more excitement to class racing again

If it rains go to lowest qualified 2 cars in each category

Ashton Hudson SS/CS 4373

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Alan there were 50 classes in stock in 1978, There are 51 now.
In Superstock there are a lot of classes. And nhra does not seem to think this is a problem, they have added classes every year. For the past few years.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

NHRA doesn't think a lot of things are a problem. Where is that getting us?

You cannot be all things to all people. You cannot have a class for everyone and every combination.

NHRA is just looking to add as many people as they can to pay membership dues, entry fees, license fees, chassis certification fees, etc.

Re: How would you SAVE CLASS RACING ???
 

Alan who is saying we have to many classes?
Dick Butler?????????