Another low car count?
 

Vegas has been down to 1 grade point for a week. and only 33 stockers and 29 superstockers, comp only has 9 cars. But the .90 cars are full.
If it was just the cost of traveling the .90 classes would be down.
Maybe it's the enhancements? Thanks nhra

Re: Another low car count?
 

You make an EXCELLENT point... in S/SS/Comp, it's not just about the expenses... there's a lot more going on, and those issues need to be researched and addressed. These are some of NHRA's most loyal supporters, and the feeding ground for many for the move up to the Pro classes.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Art, this is not a good thing either. If we continue low car counts that will be another reason for NHRA to replace us. They have already added Pro Mod and they had the race of champions at Gainsville. At the divisonals they already added top sportsman and top dragster. 10, 11, 12 index classes, motorcycle classes and who knows they may add the vintage funny cars. We can only do what we can do and afford.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Chuck, it's like the chicken or the egg, which comes first. The more we get enhanced the less we go. I could have afforded to go to Belle Rose, South Georgia and the Gators. In fact I had planned to if NHRA had put the new cars in their own class. They chose to do nothing and I chose to stay home. Instead I went to Notre Dame this weekend to see Andrew and watched ND play three hockey games. Had a great time and got to spend some quality time with my son.

There are more than a few of us that are staying home because of the way NHRA has treated us over the last few years. In 2008 when fuel prices were sky high I went to 6 Nationals, 8 divisionals, and 3 opens. There is a whole lot more going on than the economy or high fuel.

Re: Another low car count?
 

The .90 cars will always fill up the fields. Its probably what NHRA is wishing for. When enough of you stop going then they will ad the S/ST guys to national events AND/OR the new unleashed index classes. They are less trouble for them. There is always someone waiting to fill your shoes.

Re: Another low car count?
 

NitroJam in Tucson the same weekend. Bring them class cars down and have some fun.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Is IHRA running class cars at Tuscon?

This is from the IHRA website: "The inaugural Arizona Nitro Jam will feature a full ET and Junior Dragster program customized for the racers, with additional classes currently being discussed. While not on the agenda for the inaugural event, a full Nitro Jam event with all IHRA sportsman classes is the goal for the future."

Re: Another low car count?
 

Nope !

Re: Another low car count?
 

You can't compare super class car count to stk and ss. Super cars are cheap to build, very easy to maintain. Most have tug boat motors, alot of them use pump gas and still cover their index by atleast one second.. I believe that 1/3 of the super racers have 2 cars, (1 S/G and 1 S/C) and enter 2 classes. They get more bang for buck at a national.
Not to mention there are 10 or more times the super racers in the USA than stk and or ss racers. Super classes will always fill up fast, nature of the beast.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Why enter now when you can wait until the last minute?


-Toby

Re: Another low car count?
 

I tried to generate interest in a class car show in tucson. I got extra purse money. i got hem to structure the event so we did not have to jump through extra hoops to put it on. STILL NO INTEREST!!!!! I got 11 responses. & only 1 super stock. Every one was either going to Vegas for the double header or not going anywhere. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Toby I could not agree more. Why does NHRA need my money two months before it has to be there.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Charlie,
You are absolutely CLUELESS what it cost to build a competitive.90 car.

That being said the reason .90 classes keep filling up is new blood. So many people are tired of the crap going on at Bracket races they have migrated to the .90 races as an alternative.

S/SS on the other hand gets very little new blood because the bracket racers cars can't crossover.
Thats my opinion.
Chip Johnson

Re: Another low car count?
 

You better stop what you're sniffing,drinking or shooting up.I've never raced a super category car but know many of them here in Div 1.There is a ton of work and science in these cars,especially the S/G door cars.Go out and build one and race it and come back here and see if your statement holds water.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Clueless, thats funny!! I owned and raced a competitive S/G, SST car for 18 years and compared to fast stk ss car, they are dirt cheap to build and maintain.

Not real sure about that new blood going .90 racing because of "crap" at the bracket races. I believe they migrate to the .90 class because they can keep their button and their box and still go fast for cheap $.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Wow, no challenge getting you on the chip, uh Ed?
If ya don't speak from experience, don't speak............................
I ran a s/g sst car for 18 years, and yes, my statement holds alot of water.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Ah maybe it's the smog.

Re: Another low car count?
 

I've run Brackets, S/ST, Stock & Super Stock & I would say that order ranks cost lowest to highest.
I personally think Super classes are so popular is that is the easiest ticket into a national event venue.
You could probably increase participation in S/SS if Super classes weren't allowed in national events.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Yep , just like in the late 70's .
Of course, there WAS Modified Eliminator,but IT had a spectator following too.

Re: Another low car count?
 

You can take a $10,000 bracket car and run SST with it maybe even SG.
You can also build a stocker for less than 10k also.
Both cars can be raced but are they competitive probly not.

A used S/C dragster will go for 20k plus
A new one 50K plus

How many of you have that much in building a stocker not counting CJ,DP, not many.

My 10.90 camaro in it's condition would go for $20,000plus(other similar cars have sold for more in the off season)
To build that car new would cost much more.

My dragster I won it oh well I guess it would fall in the under 10k argument.LOL
After initial investment some ss cars are costly to maintain, but I would think rebuilds are comparable.

The comment about brackets and .90 another clueless statement. You can use buttons and boxes in both. In the East double entries, 2 rounds of buybacks, and having to go 5 rds to get paid are why people are migrating to the .90,td,ts events.

I guess things are different out west.
Chip Johnson

Re: Another low car count?
 

Charlie
I reread your posts.
Things were very different 18 years ago. I think you r bucket of water has holes in it. You got guys out here going to Saturday night bracket races with 50k dragsters

Re: Another low car count?
 

The Super classes fill up because they attract a wide variety of cars, a lot like Stock used to 30 years ago. Today, Stock and Super Stock are very narrow classes focused on a few high dollar purpose built cars which mostly can't cross over from other types of racing. And I'm not even talking about the new "checkbook #1 qualifier" classes from Ford and Dodge.

Interestingly, about 20% of the 10-11-12 Index cars at the new Division 2 format are crossover Stockers, and the word I've heard in the pits is that the Stock diehards find it surprisingly fun with a lot less hassle. Here's my latest idea you probably don't want to hear to get more crossover racers at Lucas Oil Div. 2 events:

Outlaw Super Comp: 7.50 heads up, .4 pro tree, dragsters OK, nitrous OK. Allows S/C dragsters to race index and equalizes slow/fast combinations.

Outlaw Super Gas: 8.50 heads up, .4 pro tree, left steer, nitrous OK. Same thing for S/G cars looking for something new as well as the true "outlaw 8.50" racers from Unleashed.

Outlaw Super Street: 10.00 heads up, .4 pro tree, no boxes/stops, exactly the same rules as the current 10.0 class (just give it a name for marketing).

Keep the 11-12 classes the way they are now and give them cool names.

Re: Another low car count?
 

They hear Biondo's are coming.
;-)

Re: Another low car count?
 

The fact is there are not near as many class cars out west. Out west we can and do race ALL year long.Our off season is 2 weeks around christmas with the Hangover Nationals starting the season on New years day. With that schedule it is a little time to maintain the up keep or like myself you have a bracket car too. Now you have 2 cars to feed. At a summit series bracket race @ speed world this weekend there were 4 stock eliminator cars racing to get some practice. The sportsman final was Angelo Phillips L/SA vs Rick Unterseh O/SA.With the other cars going to the quarter finals in pro. Yeah we bracket race too for a race that paid $125.00 to win! So is it about the money??? REALLY???No one understands these cars much less want to race one. All i got in the lines was a bunch of bracket racers looking @ me like I had 3 heads.Asking questions like " A thermo quad?? Why dont you use a carb that works?? or I have only heard about these cars..Or You guys are crazy why dont you want to go faster for the money? All that effort in an ASPEN???? WTF? I try to explain the addiction, the fun and our purpose and history...but... it truly depresses me to the point where I just keep to myself and let them ask me what the letters on my window mean.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Actually, I had a number of people admiring the Turismo this weekend (yeah, I said it!), particularly when they find out it's not a turbo car. They understand that it's very fast *for what it is*. It's all relative. This car probably gets more attention than the Volare! I'm sorry that you live in a region where you can't race for decent money and there aren't a lot of people that understand or appreciate S/SS cars. It is not that way everywhere.

How are S/SS and .90 classes even remotely tied together? :confused: Why would you tell 150+ cars to stay home to pick up 10?

Re: Another low car count?
 

Greg Hill, you know that old expression "cut off your nose to spite your face"? Your strategy may just play right into their hands.

'Staying home in protest' might actually backfire on you. When you do decide to go back, you may find that there is no place to go.

At that point, we may all be converting our cars into 10, 11, & 12 sec. cars.

Not saying this in disrespect, but just trying to look at the big picture.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Exempt the guys with Cards, A few years ago you would have never been able to
enter Vegas this late with one Grade point, Soooo something has changed !!!!
And I dont think its for the positive

Re: Another low car count?
 

This is what I was getting to.
You can blame the economy, but the .90 guys have filled the fields.

Re: Another low car count?
 

I'm saying there is a desire for racers to participate on the national event level. Prestige, ego, money. If there were no other way to race such a venue without having a pro class car, you would see more entry level stockers.
However, I know NHRA would never drop the super classes so it's a moot point.

Question: Did IHRA find that crate motor stock brought new blood into S/SS? I'm wondering if the statistics show an increase in car counts for Stock. Do the participants generally favor it?

Re: Another low car count?
 

The cost is not an absolute... or course you can build a 10K stocker... it will either be slow, or uncompetitive. I know there is much science & sophistication in the .90 cars, but getting what you need to do what you want to do is accessible and relatively cheap compared to a lot of what you need to do with S/SS stuff, especially if you are not racing a SM/BB Chevy (or one of the other 3 or 4 mainstream combos). I'm not knocking Chevys, I'm actually a diehard Chevy fan, always had them, owned/raced at least 11 of them. (If I had my ideal Stocker, it would be a 69 396/375 Chevelle) But having built/raced bracket cars for 30 years, the cost for finding performance/consistency compared to S/SS is startling.... I know a 10K ST/SG car is not going to be state of the art, but at least you could be competitive if you're smart about your combo. No dice in Stock. (SG/SC is expensive, period, just due to how fast you have to go... we all know speed costs money, just the same speed costs a lot more in S/SS.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Jeff,
When I started back running IHRA in 2002 it was in a crate motor stocker.
Chip

Re: Another low car count?
 

Marv you are not correct. The car you picked has been beat to death by the racers, You have to keep up with the jones's. $5,000 cyl heads etc.
If you choose a soft factor, less popular class. It does not cost near as much as you think.
I have less than $20,000 in my superstocker, (you can have it for $15,000) and "Trust Me" I can run with the CJ's
If you read the rules and the guides you can run fast without spending a lot of money.
How much do you think Bob Shaw has in his rides?

Re: Another low car count?
 

Jeff, I think you have hit on a key point here... the S/SS fields were HUGE in the days before there were so many index classes. Super gas was a nice addition in the beginning, when most were door cars, then everyone figured out the liteweight/cheap way to go fast with the dragsters/roadsters, leading up to S/C. Indexes gave bracket racers an entry into National level competition, and it was a lot easier to tread those waters than the tech challenge of S/SS. We lost a lot of potential racers to that direction... I think a good solution would be to have a separate series for the index cars, and have them run on different dates. The mentality from brackets to Class racing is totally different, and having therm run on different weekends might be good for all. (No bias here, I've done both, but from the mentality standpoint, the mindset of the S/SS/Comp guys are closer to the pros approach, and the index cars are a different alignment altogether). Who knows?? Having the Pros/S/SS/Comp guys together, and the Alcohol, TS/SC/SG/SST and Pro Mods together might be good for us, spectators and NHRA.

Re: Another low car count?
 

It goes back to crossing over.
I have a dragster I can run SC,TD,QR,and brackets.
I have a 68 camaro I can run SG,SST,SR,HR, and bracket race.

When I had my last stocker I could race stock and bracket that was it.

Don't take this the wrong way I love S/SS, It's all I ever wanted to do but for me now .90 and brackets make more sense.
Chip Johnson

Re: Another low car count?
 

Jeff.....Several years ago (more than 15) IHRA was going to drop stock all together or combine them into S/S. The car count was 8 to 12 cars when no NHRA race was going on within around 500 miles. The S/S count was higher then with close to 100 cars at every event. I fought against it HARD then I develoed the dreaded (to NHRA racers) stock "Crate" motor classes and after about 6 months the stocker count took off after management decided to try it. IHRA began to have 60 to 80+ stocker car counts and several NHRA guys stated to run with IHRA also as the sponsor money went up. IHRA had class run offs then also with the high car counts. It was a much less expensive way to race in the beginning. Parts were easy to come by and we had something to compare heads, etc. to in tear down. As time went on they turned into NHRA style cars with the expensive mods allowed today in NHRA stockers. Bogus cylinder heads, lite trans components, shubeck style lifters with crazy spring pressures, 8000+ RPM shift points, and all the other tricks in the book that guys are doing today. Until I quit approx. 10 years ago I kept a handle on it but now its just as expensive to build and maintain a crate engined class car as it is an NHRA stocker and the car counts had dropped due to the economy, lack of pay outs, and the lack of tear downs by competent tech people. I dont blame the good tech guys that IHRA has left (not many) but the time schedule of their races dosent allow for much in the tear down inspection dept. I can see it happenng to the NHRA even though those with more money than sense continue to play the game. Its only a matter of time before it fails and car counts all drasticly in NHRA to. The "rules creap" has caused a lot of it. It has almost changed my mind about running a stocker again and the cost of gas and diesel hasnt helped either.

Re: Another low car count?
 

You can have my DF/S '85 Turismo 2.2L for $10K right this instant. Won Saturday, was R/U on Sunday, and won two events last year running a limited schedule. I take PayPal.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Only thing is you gonna have to deal with a tire shortage (no pun intended) "NOTTT"
Just funnin Michael, if jr buys mine i may buy yours .....

Re: Another low car count?
 

I haven't got to that point yet but I think as long as you can use a 13" wheel You can get 20" tall tires.

Michael take a look at these wheels. In the 13" size they aren't that heavy

http://www.diamondracingwheels.com/ministock.html

Re: Another low car count?
 

I know alot of racers in both sanctions that just do not race classes anymore, everyone has there personal reasons. I am sure if every racer tried to get just one additional racer
to enter these events the car counts would be up significantly. I am running s/c and ss/modified, and I can tell you I could have bought 2 tk dragsters for what is in the ss motor, but thats just me. I do miss alot of the racers and big parties @ the races.

Re: Another low car count?
 

Bobby,I don't spend my money with people who treat me the way NHRA does. If what we have now is all there is I really don't care if they are around or not. I will not go back to National events until there are some big changes at NHRA. I am having a good time racing our local combo races and will race a couple of NHRA points races and opens and quite a bit more IHRA than I have in the past. In my view the big picture is that unless there is a fundamental shift in the way NHRA does business I don't think they will be around and it will have very little to do with what stock and super stock racers do.