How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Just wondering how these new engine combos run in regular SS classes and not GT. I don't think the 2010 Mustang came from the Ford store with a 428 or 352 crate motors?

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Well they must have! They can run Stock!

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

They run B/SA (428) and E/SA (352) in Stock also. Welcome to modern 2011 Class Racing. A far cry from the good old days, sadly.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

They're in the Stock Car Classification Guide. Welcome to the "new" class racing from NHRA. :rolleyes:

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Jeff I'm more impressed with your performance than a new car. No computer, turbo, blower, EFI, etc.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

You may recall Calvert's Mustang is the 428....the one his son ran at Pomona. I agree with Ed's assessment though...Jeff's car is very impressive.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Give John Calvert a call and he can give you all the details because he has one.
661-728-9600
calvert@calvertracing.com

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

If you are wondering how this can happen, just look at which vehicle is the official vehicle of the NHRA?

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

If you are wondering how this can happen, just look at which vehicle is the official vehicle of the NHRA?

X2

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Thanks ED, If I could just keep a tranny in it for more than four runs in a row I might be able to race. I belive now I do remember a posting from NHRA about those combos a year or so ago. Senior moment I guess. Still thought they had to produce so many in a year to be legal. Can't keep up with all this new stuff.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Nhra changed the rules, no more certain amt built. At the discretion of nhra.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

WAAAAH, WAAAAH, WAAAAH!!!
YOU WOULDN'T BE CRYING SO LOUD IF IT WAS GM THOUGH WOULD YOU!

I agree if it doesn't come from the factory, it shouldn't be in regular SuperStock. But to take pot shots at nhra and blame ford when nhra did the same things when gm was the flavour of the week (year after year) and there was no bitching is not only bias but blatently obvious favouritism.
I get it, lots on here are anti-ford. Fine.
This should be a "this isn't right"
Not a "waaah, I hate ford, they get special treatment"

The obvious question is, how does a crate motor fit into a SuperStocker?
Answer, in Modified or GT...actually, how does it fit in GT either when GT is regular SS motors in a newer/different body? This isn't a regular SS motor that has been moved to a different body, it was never a SS motor in the first place...hmmmm

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

B.S., no one is crying, they're stating plain facts. The cars are bogus, the factors are bogus, and the basic character and structure of the class was completely altered in order to make it happen, something that was NEVER done for GM. That ain't all that was done, either, several people who were friends of the Stock and Super Stock racers were run over by NHRA in order to make it happen.

When you can show us a GM car, and engine, that was NEVER produced for street use, and factored over 100 HP soft, then come back with your tired lame B.S. about everyone being upset just because it is Ford and Chrysler, instead of GM. That line of crap is a complete joke, not to mention a total farce and a fabrication.

For example, the ZL-1 Camaro, 69 units built, sold, and certified legal for street use, was removed from the guide, only in the past few years was it returned to the guide. The 67 Corvette L-88, 36 units sold and certified for street use, and several others produced and sent out the back door of GM as complete vehicles, was removed from the guide, and still has not been returned to the guide. Yeah, GM discouraged buyers from driving both of them on the street, but they were real, legal, federally certified vehicles, delivered from the factory, and legal to license and drive on the street as delivered. There hasn't been a Drag Pack Challenger yet certified for street use by Chrysler, never mind 36 of them. The fact is, a 67 L-88 Corvette is far closer to street legal and the original intent and character of NHRA Stock Eliminator than ANY of the new factory cars.

Yeah, go ahead, trot out the same lame tired tripe about the 98 LT-1 cars while you're at it. The fact is, the 98 F body cars were certified street legal, and so was the LT-1 engine. GM even had the LT-1 in the owner's manual of the 98 F body cars showing intent to produce. There's no competitive advantage to a 98 F body with an LT-1, they aren't a bit faster than a 97 F body with an LT-1. Try making that statement about the new factory bogus crate motor cars without lying. Good luck.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Thanks Alan, you beat me to it!

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

x2

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

A most excellent post.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Well, you commented on the first two lines of the post, what about the remainder?

I agree it isn't right.

I was also directly replying to the post about "look who's the official veh"
THAT is crying, plain and simple. Making excuses about why you can't compete. It's not that it's FORD, it's that it is something that shouldn't be allowed.

You can debate the merits of something, that's fine, but when somebody throws in the gratuitous "that's because it's a XXX" it takes away from the real message or point.

I just grabbed an old rulebook for reference, SS/GT is "any production v-8 of the same make" OK, 428w would fit there.
Interestingly enough, for SS it doesn't specify engine, it only says "only those cars listed in the guide are eligible" and "all cars factory production assembled"
Well, if it was never "factory production assembled" (in other words, the 428W was never factory assembled in a car, technically it shouldn't be allowed)

It comes down to manufacturers asking and getting something for a better ROI. No more, no less. Of course any factory that did this is doing it their own best interest.(in other words can't fault mopar or ford)
The blame falls directly at the feet of NHRA for allowing this.

An example;
Like nascar, toyota want's to play in S/SS. So, they spend huge $$ building v-8 rwd corolla's just to stick in the guide. They are twin turbo/blah/blah/blah rated at 200hp.
Now, who's fault is it when bogus toyota's start cleaning house?

Toyota because they gave free ****box imports to everybody in the nhra?

Or NHRA because they whored themselves out to the highest bidder?

Think about it, THAT'S what I mean by crying and placing blame on the wrong party because they don't like said party.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Shouldn't the question be more about the underfactored part than anything? There aren't going to be many more high HP cars released from factory in a high rate of production so I think it would be senseless for us to argue that. With the gas consumption phenomena, its just not going to happen unless its a very low HP combo. Special order cars are probably the closest we will get to any of the muscle cars of yesteryear. I think the focus should remain with getting car factored more correctly.

On a side note, I see that none of the new ford guys wanted to show their full potential but it was obvious they knew how to use the brakes lol.



Oh yeah I've got a solution for fixing the fords and dodges. Somebody who passionately believes that the cars need be refactored should by a DP and a CJ. Tune them all the way up, go to a race and run them all the way out. After 3 or 4 events of that, things will be adjusted and you could sell the cars, problem solved lol! This way, you don't have to wait on NHRA to change it, you could just change it yourself lol! Now, you guys just need to pool the money and decide on a driver. Haha, this would make alot of people happy and alot of people mad but I would love to see it happen.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Actually, I was making an observation-I might be wrong in my observation, but I wasn't crying. The motor in my comp car is out of a Colorado pick-up truck, but some of my closest friends in comp are sponsored by Varsity Ford and that dealership is sponsoring some of the new CJs. I love what the Bollmans do in comp with their Fords and oh yeah, I love the new CJ Erich has. Another one of my friends, Rich Rodgers, has a CJ. I like these new cars, and I know I'm going to get shot for saying this, the DP's too. I can't wait to see the new Camaros out there racing.

Again, I was making an observation-not complaining. That observation may be wrong and perhaps all NHRA is trying to do is get new cars into stock and help Ford and Chrysler sell some new cars. Heaven forbid that anyone should try to help the American car companies sell cars.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

I personally agree that the ratings on these cars are BS, NHRA should be able to control this. That has not happened. It shows what happens when you let someone else run your organization. The auto companies left us for many years and now they have returned. They have proven they can build a comparable car to the old muscle cars. They didn't need to lie about it.

I feel the big issue of the streetability lies in our "sue" happy society. They cannot afford to put one of these rockets onto the streets today or they will be in court in 24 hours for something. They do not want to hear the environmentalists start crawling down their throats either.

They have given us a taste of the old, I just wish it was on the up and up.

My .02

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Jeff, are you running a Jerico or a G-force currently?

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Jerico

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

um there's a 556hp caddy, a 556hp camaro next year, a 660hp mustang, and a 638 hp vette ( plus a 505hp Z06). What the hell are you talking about?

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Point taken but I guess I should have been more clear in my comment. I don't think racers should expect for race ready cars like the CJ's and DP's to be street available cars. The times we live in will not allow for cars such as the "Thunderbolt or Hemi Darts/Cudas" to be manufactured as street available cars or in high production numbers in my opinion. Thats why I think it is a mute point to argue these days. I think the focus should be on getting the factor correct. Sorry about that, I didn't think my thoughts out clearly enough.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

The cars you speak of were put in Super stock, not Stock Eliminator. You've illustrated perfectly the point I've been making for about 3 years now. Thanks. The basic premise of Stock Eliminator is, or actually, was, that the cars legal for the class were originally street legal production cars. That was the entire point of the class, NOT having one off trick purpose built race cars in the class. That's why they put those Hemi Darts and Cudas in Super Stock from day one, and why the rest of these factory race cars belong in Super Stock.

And in allowing those cars in Stock Eliminator, NHRA has completely changed the character and premise of the class, and effectively rendered everything else obsolete. Now they can and will allow any manufacturer that they want to add a new paper combination whenever they want. Because they do not have to produce the cars anymore, they just have to add paper to a catalog. They can create, on paper, a new combination any time they want. It's a completely unsustainable business model that is directly contrary to the best interests of the class.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Exactly they are making some great cars. Just put them in the guide just like before and let people build them if they want. If they want to make light weight versions put them in Superstock just like was done before.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Point taken and understood. My understanding of the class was a little different.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Let's not forget that if you walk into a dealership and buy and new street legal Mustang or Challenger you wont be able to race it in stock. CJ's and DP's only, How does this help the factory's sell more car's?....................


NHRA, Put the real car's in guides with real HP factors.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

EXACTLY!!
Why is NHRA allowing this??? MONEY!

Don't hate the playa, hate the game...or whatever that saying is. If GM shows up with a papercar, some would be happy and figure now their favourite can compete with "them".
The problem is, NONE should be allowed to do this. I certainly wouldn't condemn GM for doing it though, they are just getting the best ROI that THEY can like any other business.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

I am not here to try and rub anyone the wrong way but, If you really think ford is pumping NHRA up with a bunch of money to make these cars dominate in Stk and SS then I have some swamp, uh I mean prime lake front property to sell to you. Ford Corporate does not give a **** if they dominate they care about all the amount of advertisement they get. That is why they are the official vehicle of NHRA. Ford Racing tells the people that talk to NHRA what the HP ratings should be then NHRA puts them in the book. This has been argued about for over a year, and it always just fizzles out and dies without anyone doing anything about it. If everyone that gets on here and bitches spent their time writing letters to NHRA and being proactive then maybe something would change, and if it didn't at least you could say you tried. To me it just seems that ya'll need something to complain about and if these cars weren't around it would be something else.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

If you think there have not been letters sent to NHRA about these new cars, then you have been living under a rock, the point was made perfectly they don't belong in stock, these cars should be in super/stock. There not production cars!!!!!! Next time push your rock aside and pay attention.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

I did question them on how the 4.6L 3V got the HP rating it did. This is the response I got from Bruce.


Let me give you some info on the Ford 281 CID 4.6L 3 valve engine as it relates to the NHRA. NHRA Stock eliminator racers are Limited to Model,engine combinations that are accepted/approved by the Technical Services Dept. This is done via an extensive

TI ( Techincal Information ) form. That is each engine component is evaluated and approved.

Ford 2008 4.6L engines approved for use in the Cobra Jets.

300/281 CJ coupe

325/281 CJ Bullitt

430/281 CJ Roush Stage 3 coupe

510/281 CJ P51 coupe



All of these engnes are pretty much the same: IE 2@57 MM throttle body,dish piston, 2@1.340 and 1@ 1.500 valves,

Same cylinder head # RF3L3E-6040 K.

Ford 2010 4.6L engine approved for use in the Cobra Jet.

235/281 CJ coupe. Same engine except throttle body. 2@62.5MM.

None of the above combinations have been or are currently being used in Stock Eliminator.

Ford has no plans to submit any combination for the 2011 season.

There will be Cobra Jets in 2012, but no 4.6L engines only the 330 and 302.



Bruce Bachelder

The answer I got makes no sense to me Basically he says it is the same as the 300hp version with bigger throttle bodys. Yet it is 65 hp less.
I sent a follow up asking how it could be less with the bigger throttle body but as of yet I did not get a responce to that question.
He has been very prompt in answering question.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

You're as lost as last year's Easter Eggs huh?

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Yes chad. I must be lost. Would you please fill me in on how the world of NHRA works?

P.S. you guys are all lost because this combo was in SS last year! I believe Mr. Wolfe ran it a handful times.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Danny has given him a answer therfre he can not speak, don't forget he's Danny's Parriot (Poly want a cracker)

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

And that is where it belongs in SS or maybe comp.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

x3

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

x2

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

I just don't see the argument that the younger crowd can relate to these cars and therefore have interested in Stock Eliminator. Kid X goes to the Summernationals and sees new Mustangs running crazy fast then goes to his nearest dealer and purchased a Mustang GT 5.0....but wait, the 5.0 isn't an approved car. Sorry kid, call Ford Racing and shell out $85,000 for a car you can't even legally drive down the street. Worst part is, the 5.0 at 412 horsepower would be a very competitive combo but Ford will put a large dome on the piston and bigger cam and rate it at less. So kid X is still screwed because he's building a brand new motor for his new car. There are no "kids" getting into our game with these new cars and the $100,000 price tag they have. Plain and simple.

Re: How does a 428W crate motor run regular SS?
 

Mike,

I think Jeff Teuton is a "big kid", he acts like it, and seems to be enjoying it. Good for him.