cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Talked to danny in g-ville he was gonna talk to collins didn't know if you had heard any thing?

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

All I can tell you is the sportsman advisory all voted in favor of allowing hand brake/secondary systems and for some reason unknown we are still not allowed to have them. These people that make the rules just don't understand how much safer this is, they insist we are scrubing ET off with the hand brake which really should not matter if you use your hand or foot. Safer with your hand and less chance of locking up tires they do not get it go figure!

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

I have a question. In a emergency situation, when your foot brake fails and you have to use your emergency hand brake. How do you pull your chute? It seems to me, if this is a back up system, you would not be required to have a chute. Did they make Allen Johnson get rid of his hand brake in his Pro Stock car? I seen him pulling his brake before he use to stage. Just wondering.

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Do they not think we are not doing it with the foot????????
Chip Johnson

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

I got a couple of more questions. :D I think the sportsman advisory council or committee, recommended that the index needed changed for the super classes and NHRA polled some of the racers and counted the votes for a change or not. I wonder why, they don't take a vote on the hand brake issue, and if the racers vote for it, fine. One last question, is the hand brake only the back wheels? I hope I can get a answer, cause I don't have a clue. Just feel like there is more to it, than I know.
Steve Willie Williams Super gas 351N Doing my best with what I got and I am not even close.

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

I have not heard a word on it but I will send a note to Mike Rice to get the question brought up again.

This is not something that we should let go. It's just wrong that it is not allowed.

Like Steve said, we voted all in favor of allowing a handbrake. Not 1 person voted against it. WTF...

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

I asked for another review of the rule......I will post when they answer me...hopefully this week....


Rock

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Thanks rock the good thing is danny was in agreement with cohen and I hope they see the light?

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

I believe he is the one holding it up....so maybe he has changed his tune....Cohen can get to you like that.....lol

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

I was told that some chassis builders as well as some others were going to write letters to NHRA Tech urging them to allow the seperate hand brake. They would stress the added safety feature as that is why they installed them in the first place. That was a month or more ago....

This past Sunday......I raced my car for the first time and had my throttle stick on my last run.......Brakes were useless.......Fortunately I just switched to a Ron's Terminator and pulled the fuel shutoff and stopped easily......using both my foot and hand brakes as I usually do.....

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Boy, I just can't believe NHRA would not see this as a safety problem, After reading about how the throttle stuck open on the previous, and how the hand brake saved the day, it would probably be in the best interest to make a secondary braking system, mandatory on all cars. I know a Mustang in division 3 super gas that pulls the chute at the end of the run, to help out his braking. This way he would not have to pull the chute and use the hand brake to help stop. I guess I would not be able to race cause I can't turn the steering wheel with one hand, and if I am braking hard I like to have both hands on the wheel. I am starting to realize that the class I am in the wrong class, And I liked the class.

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Gota take care of people

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Come on CBS, any word yet?

Thanks, BB

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

I've sent 2 notes.....waiting on a response....

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Ok, thanks.

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

I see the SRAC has a lot of pull these days. Did they even have the regular meeting in Gainesville like they have in years past? I don't remember reading anything about it...

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Depends on what your pulling on.

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

One things for sure, they are not pulling on a hand brake. But realy guys, you can use a dual master cylinder, with 2 resivours and get the same redundant system your after without the drama of "I want a hand brake". Unless your left foot does not work. Otherwise I tend to agree that the temptation to use the hand brake as a finish line enhacing tool does exist.

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Jeff, could you explain how you can use a dual resivor master cylinder and it only work one set of calipers at a time but will work the second set when the first set goes out?

We are not wanting 4 calipers working at the same time, that will kill people! We are trying to make our cars safer in the case of a failure of the first set of normal brakes....like I had a BG last year and luckily the tech guy saved my life or at least my car by letting me keep the second brake handle in the car.

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

it works them both, how would that kill you?

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Most if not all can slide the back tires with 2 calipers. Now put 4 calipers on at once and it only takes half the force of your foot and the back tires lock up.

It's kinda like helmets, 99% of the time we don't need them. However if the brakes go out the second set would have saved at least 5 crashes that I know of.

Why don't you come over at Indy and I can show you what I am talking about, most people even that own dragsters don't know the benifits, myself included til I got them.

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Lynn is right dual calipers are a receipe for a barrel roll the handbrake would just be a backup system I think the chassis builders should get on nhra's *** and get the ball rolling, i was told they are still legal in ihra??

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

They are legal Mickey

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

I am just wondering, what was the cause of the brake failure for the foot brake not to work on the car, and the cause of the other five cars that had the failures. I talked to the potato digger driver after he ran off the end of the track and the brake line between the calipers was replaced and was rubbing the wheel. Is it a master cylinders failure? caliper failure? Line failure? I had a master cylinder go away on me, but I caught it before I went to the track. Just asking and wondering. Steve Willie Williams

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Maverick, so far I have shaken the resivor off once and still had brakes, go figure. But when I completely lost the foot brake the line shook loose at the master cyl. TD tire shake does lots of wierd stuff!

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

I am sorry, but that is scary. I had a JFZ master cylinder go away on me and I put a 1 1/16 mopar type master cylinder with the plastic reservoir on it, and had issues with the stroke not being long enough for what I do, so I spent twice as much to get a 7/8 inch all aluminum Wilwood master cylinder, Never has a issue yet, but it is big and bulky.

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

That's what we have.

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Let me answer for Jeff. You would plumb one set to the front half of the cylinder and the second set to the back half of the cylinder. The dual master IS for safety that is why it is federally mandated on all US vehicles since the mid 1960's. If you have hydraulic failure, the pedal will drop some, but a rod inside the piston assembly will manually push the other pistion in the cylinder to apply the brakes on the other line. I guess I agree with Jeff, that the hand brake is more of a finish line enhancement than safety. If we are going to go the safety route, then that means every car needs a hand brake.

If you only have one set of rear calipers and no front brakes, then even a handbrake isn't going to help you, so where is the safety again?

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

The handbrakes we are talking about does have 2 seperate sets of rear calipers.

Can anyone tell me anyone who drives the finish line with the hand brake? I have yet to find anyone.

It is a great safty feature that SHOULD be mandatory on all cars over 150...in my opinion.
And it is an awesome addition to getting the car out of the trailer easily by yourself, lol.

Don't forget to bring your tux to Indy, Royal Wedding Friday morning!

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

The second or hand brake system is independent of the foot system. the only common pieces between them are the brake rotor and the plate from the rear end that holds the dual calipers. The safety comes from if there is a failure of any brake part other than those, you still have brakes. If you break a line or fitting, pedal/rod falls off or other M/C failure or a pad or the caliper fails, you still have a complete braking system to stop the car. Ten years ago I broke a simple fitting on the only brake line at LVD and crashed, the brakes were fine when I staged but at the stripe the pedal went right to floor with nothing. My new dragster has 2 independent sets so that a simple failure wont wreck me again. The failure would have to be very severe to disable both sets at the same time.
I was told by D-1 Tech Director Ryck Campbell during chassis cert that the rule book states if they work together having the 2nd brake is legal, meaning if you pull the hand brake and the pedal moves and vise-versa its legal. I am now fashioning an adjustable morse cable between them to comply with the rule without taking the handle out. I have no intention of doubling my single motion brake capacity, either system individually will easily lock the brakes up at any speed. Just comply the one of the more poorly thought out rules to come along in a while.

Bill Krug
T/D 1531
S/C 1531
S/G 153K

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Sorry Guys, I should have phrased my comment more as a question. I too am building a Top Dragster and have dual brakes set up on it, and want to ad them to our Super Comp car. Ron's answer for me is correct, that is my understanding and thinking. I do believe that NHRA does fear the use of hand brakes as a finish line/crash opportunity. Also JFR using it as a traction control activator is where the rule came from, how that effects Sportsman safety is beyond me. No I do not know anyone who uses the hand brake at the finish line, but if it is in the car, I know people and someone by human nature just wont be able to resist, I dont want to be in the other lane. I like the morse cable for rule compliance, but I am trying to figure out a second pedal, our maybe I am just trying to reinvent the wheel. Anyhow, I am not trying to show off my ignorance or stir the pot, but sometimes we (racers) are easy to rile up.

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Jeff
When I spoke to our D-1 guys, I was also told of the traction control by the pros and even some cheating at the sportsman level. Instead of aggressive tech inspection and finish line monitoring, Glendora's answer was this rule. Having wrecked a car from a .99 cent part failing at the worst time, I am sensitive to this issue. There is no worse feeling in the world than knowing you are going to crash, and having a while to think about it before you hit. My use for it is strictly for a safety/backup. We even plumbed each system down opposite sides of the car, it would take a significant failure of the rotor or the caliper mounting plate to completely disable the brakes. I use Strange parts and G/Y 2200 pro-stock tires and a stab of the foot brake will easily lock them up at any speed.

You could place the 2nd pedal and M/C deeper in the center of the cockpit. If you lose your brakes, as long as you don't panic, you have a while to think about what to do.

Bill

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

The question was raised do you know anyone who drives the finish line with the hand brake. I was not in the car with him at the time, but I talked to the west coast champ, with the roadster, with the surf boards, that was racing everywhere that year. I believe 2009. And he stated that what he does, and I was just amazed that anyone would pull the brake that hard. He stated it won't lock the brakes up, but he felt it was safe effective method, if you can't catch the guy. That was the first time I heard of it, and I believe the group was five or six racers, that were waiting for the time to move there trailers at the US Nationals. There is one, and I believe that he was not the only one in the group, but I got to know talk to the guy a few times and that is what he stated. Steve Willie Williams Super gas 351N

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

I am finishing up our SC/TD car and decided to put on a dual rear brake system. Using Wilwood's dual MC system, two separate lines to the rear and dual calipers. My thinking being that 3/4ths of the system is redundant. Protects against several common failure scenarios: leaking fitting, line rupture, FOD or failure at the caliper, etc. Yes, you can envision another set of failures that it still doesn't help: pedal disconnect, catastrophic MC failure, bracket failure, and since the lines run down the same frame rail, frame tube destruction. But it still seems worth the expense/effort.

As for the "too easy to lock it up", I'm just baffled. With sufficient pressure, you can lock up any brake system and get in trouble. The trick is to not push that hard... like you always do? In short, I'm at a loss as to where in the book of life it says "there's such a thing as too much brake capability". Especially at 180+.

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

My theory is if you're going to use a dual caliper system use a dual master cylinder and connect both calipers on one side to the same brake line. I broke a hat and fortunately the rotor stayed in place enough so the pistons stayed in the caliper, if the rotor had come out of the caliper I would have had zero brakes, single or dual calipers!
I've also seen the ring gear come off and saw off the lower right frame rail a couple of times so both lbrakes lines should run down the left side.

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Chris, your are 100% right, you can lock up any brakes. With your brake system you don't have to push as hard to do it...around here it's really in "vouge" to dump hard, I am guilty sometimes too and after driving a car with brakes like yours before, I would have trouble with it.

I am not saying you can't have your system, even though I feel they are not as safe as a foot brake, hand brake set up. I know my car is not as safe as it was when I had to take the hand brake out before tech at Charlotte, and a helluva lot harder to get out of the trailer.

Bottom line, and something I think everyone will agree with, if they would enforce the excessive braking rule this would not be an issue.

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

I agree again 100% with all the reasons a seperate handbrake operated system is safer.

Enforce the rules....unsafe braking gets DQ'ed on the spot......Event director makes the decision.....end of story......Spotters are at the 1000' mark.....They call it...your out.....Don't care who you are, what number is on your car......you skid the back end or put smoke out on a door car and your out.....

Look at the numbers some guys are running vs a red.....and there are more and more people singing the praises of holding rediculous amounts of ET.....This tactic is being promoted in schools conducted by xxxxxx ........Well you can fill that in for yourself....and if you don't know who I am not going to say.....


If everybody holds a tenth.....what the hell do you think happens....

I have used the left pedal to win many, many rounds.....never once got out of control and never was holding the amount thats being done in todays racing.....rediculous...

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Problem is that most MCs are not identical side to side. Even the Wilwood dual system designed for drag racing applications has different size fittings for the two outlets. I worry that if you were to run both calipers one side to one outlet, I'd always have more braking on one side than the other. Now there's a recipe for disaster...

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

Do you run an open rear or a posi-trac?
With a spool?

Re: cbs latest on handbrakes?
 

M&M built a redundant system in our Jr. just like they build in the big cars. Had a tech official tell us we had to remove it. I told him no problem, then ask him to spell his name for me, so I made sure to have it correct in the lawsuit, god forbid my daughter had a brake fail and got hurt because she had to remove a safety device. He said on second thought he didn't see an issue with it....