S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Just made my first attempt rebuilding an 833 4 speed. All new parts except for shifter fork. Shifts great, however while cruising around town in 3rd and if you let off the gas, the trans pops into "N". Using offset dowel pins, the Lakewood bellhousing is within .002". Quadrupled check the linkage and everything is fine. Need help.

Need help. Thanks in advance,

Jerry

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Bell housing was going to be first suggestion, may make sure it's fully engaged in gear,also could be thrust issue that pops it out when letting off gas.
mike Taylor 3601

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Not familiar with this particular trans , however I'll assume it has a detent system for the shift rails? If so is it possible for some reason rail is not moving enough for detent to sit in rail groove? That is what basically holds it in gear along with any back cut on the shift sleeve. Take the linkage off and by hand move the shift arm you should be able to feel the detent drop into the shift shaft rail. Joe

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

i would check the adjustment on the shifter to insure it is all the way in 3rd, as well as the stops on the shifter.

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Ditto on the stops/alignment of the shifter---also check the bushings on the trans shifter arms might be a cracked one----I think it also could be a shifter fork or a slider might be worn--- is it only third???? Do you have to "hold" it in gear to keep it from popping outa gear???

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Yes, it only does it in 3rd and no, I don't have to hold it in gear as long as its under a very slight load. When puttin around town in 3rd and as long as my foot is on the gas its fine. It's only when I let off the gas is when it pops out of gear. I put the transmission in 3rd and pulled the linkage rod off. 3rd gear was fully engaged. I even pulled the shifter stop out and it did the same thing. I'm replacing the side cover and shifter fork since those are the only items that were reused. I'll look into the shifter itself tomorrow.

Thanks

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

thinking more about this the 3rd gear synchro is MOST likely bad-- this is a classic symptom of a worn synchro---same symptoms in any make of trans if the synchro is bad when either decelerating or just coasting it will jump out of gear what ever gear it is in at that time ---comp

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Yes, your correct. However every part in this transmission is brand new with the exception of the shifter fork and side cover.

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Well try the fork and side cover see if that works if not look at the 3rd gear synchro next--about the cover look at the hole the shifter fork goes thru see if it is wallowed out from use and check the fork to for excessive wear---are both forks the same if so reverse their positions swap one for the other see if that cures it--I'm still saying synchro is messed up some way

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

I'll try all your sugestion's tomorrow. Thanks a ton.

Jerry

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

It's most likely the fork, Driving around with your hand on the shifter wears them out.

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

When you have the cover off , by hand engage 3rd gear synchro, to see if it goes fully onto the speed gear could have a thrust washer or some other issue preventing full engagement. I agree a worn fork can cause this should be easy to see, measure the fork pad area then the synchro slot width,should be maybe .060-.100 clearence would be my guess. Also how is the fork attached to rail, could be a sheared pin or set bolt. All guesses but hope you find it. Joe

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Jerry,

Check the 3-4 slider, when you look at the splines, they need to be straight not hour glass shaped. Could be the syncro but remember its purpose is to slow the gear just enough to make the gear change. Also take a look at the pilot bushing, a worn one will allow the imput to walk around, although this usally a high gear issue.

Dirk Olson
5036 B/S

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Had a T-10 that did the same thing (popped out of 3rd) and it turned out to be the syncros.

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Before you pull the unit check the 3rd and 4th gear engagement by hand with the side cover off. The slider should feel like it positively clicks into each gear. If 3rd feels different than the other gears you probably are at the root of the problem.Take a look at the 3-4 synchro. Make sure the hub, dog keys and expansion springs are OK and installed properly. Do a quick check on the rollers inside the rear of the input shaft, the front bearing surface of the mainshaft, and the mainshaft endplay and rear bearing. You didn't mention which (18 or 23 spline) trans you have and the 18 spline can be normally pretty noisy and cover up an early bearing problem.

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

18 spline and this thing is giving me headaches.

Got rid of the Lakewood bellhousing, tried the wider brass vs steel shifter forks with different cover plates, installed a brand new shifter, put the older, thicker syncro's in and gained .015" and still had the same problem. Bearing's are fine.

Found out the new expansion rings we were sent were the wrong ones and caused the dog keys to be cocked. Thought the problem was solved. Wrong!

Also tried a new slider, compliments of Brewer, and still have the same problem.

From our local 833 expert's that have stopped by the shop to verify the trans was assembled correctly, all the way to asking Arlan Vandkee's advise, the dog gone transmission is still kicking out of 3rd.

Every part in this transmission is brand spanking new with the exception of the cover plate (tried 3) and tail shaft.

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Is this a trans repair on an existing past functioning trans/engine combo? I'm asking because if it's a conversion you need to check the crankshaft for a pilot bearing. (bushing)
OE production line automatic mopar cranks may not be machined to accept a pilot bushing and putting a 4 speed behind it without a bushing leaves the input shaft without front support. That usually results in a vibration but I'm thinking maybe on a fresh rebuild the "wobble" is covered up for a while until the front bearing/input rollers wear a bit. You have checked all the synchro assembly and side cover detent areas that I would have been sure was the problem area. Since back in the day the 3-4 synchro hub/sleeve/dogs/springs was serviced as an assembly I never had to check for mismatched components. I don't remember if it was possible but I assume someone verified the hub is not installed backwards or has excessive end play and the correct snap ring is installed. I assume you have good detent action (sleeve/balls/spring) in the side cover when off the trans.

I remember the 18 spline trans having a coarser pitch on the gear teeth than the 23 spline unit but I don't think the wrong gear will mesh with the cluster gear.
You aren't going find a more experienced person than Arlen on these units so unless I am missing something I'd have to compare the new parts with the originals to try to find a bogus piece.

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Jerry, I have a hurst vertigate that shifts awsome, don't think it will pop out of third on you....don't know about downshifting one of these.....if you want me ship it up to you for free testing, just PM or call me on my cell.

Eric

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

as noted : end play in the counter shaft and mainshaft but pull the cover and check the detent ,if you can shim up the detent spring for more tension (small washers) if it gets better you know what the issue is gmonde

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Thanks for the offer Eric, but I took Alan's advice and swapped out the ball and detent cover for the later version. Problem solved. Thank you everyone. Giddy up!

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Glad you solved the problem. Wanted to share this 833 4speed story but not until your problem was solved.
Had a 4speed 68 dart that worked fine, then it started not going into 2nd above 4000. Normal cruising it was fine. I pulled it and looked it over and couldn't see anything. Put it back in the car with no change. Pulled it again, this tore it all the way down, found nothing, put it together and back in and still didn't work. This was 40+ years ago when I thought you could get lucky and just by taking it apart and putting it back magic would fix it. I've lost that belief. Tore it apart again and just happened to pull on the brass syncro ring and it spread. It was split thru in one spot and above 4000 it would open up enough not to fit as it should.

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

PM me your phone number, Ill have Herb McCandless Sr call you, he probably knows more about a Chrysler 4 speed that anyone around.

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Thank's. I had to chuckle about your comment.... "get lucky and just by taking it apart and putting it back magic would fix it".....It took 6 fruitless tries, but got her done. Thanks to everyone on board or I'd still be knocking my head up agaisnt the wall.

Re: S.O.S. 833 pops out of 3rd without load.
 

Thanks for the offer. Are you Herb's son? I just built a motor using Herb's new set of spare 440 .060" over Venolia piston's from his 69 Bee. I plan on asking Herb to signature the box at this year's Mopars in the Park in MN.