Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Looks like the new Mustangs and all Mopars and GM Stockers are the only ones to get to run the aluminum 3d member cases. If you have an older Ford car you can't run an aluminum 3d member, regardless of what is said in the rule book of the last several years. It was legal in 2008 to present, now its illegal. If you have a 2008 Mustang and up Stocker you are ok, but not 2007 and down. If you have a Mopar new or old you are ok as is the 12 bolt aluminum cover for GM.

NHRA in all their infinite wisdom has decided that a 4 year old rule is now not legal if you have an older Ford Stocker.

Really makes sense don't you think?

RJ

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Not sure why anybody would bother with an alunium cover on a 12 bolt GM rear. The factory steel cover doesn't weigh a pound. It's just stamped steel.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Ed

Its for support and strength, not weight loss. Hope you have your problem fixed

RJ

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

RJ,

If you have an old Mopar, you can not use an aluminum center section. I guess you can't call it a new rule because they have not added an amendment or change the rule book. They just say that's what the rule means.

From what I have read on NHRA, the Racer Update section, its not legal in anything expect special production cars.

The rules still does not make any sense to me. We are allowed to replace the rear with a same manufacture. What happens if the aluminum is the only one available.

Is it legal if I replace the center section with aftermarket steel? How about if it is made of Titanium.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Ken

I had gotten incorrect info on the Mopars, my bad.
Did you receive any feedback from NHRA on your letter?? I still can't understand how a rule that was over 3 years old now is out the window. What was their thinking on this? Really makes you wonder what is going on, really makes no sense.

RJ

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

This is true. I have made all the phone calls and have gotten the same answer. Not legal in older MoPar, never has been. This is ridiculous, NOTHING is consistent with these rules anymore! Jim

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

I did not receive a response, but I do know Glen Gray read the letter. At first I thought they were going to let us use it. When they posted the interpretation of what the rule means, well lets just say I was disappointed.

It makes no sense, I can run a C6 with 904 internals, I can run a aluminum spool, but I can not use something that has no performance advantage.

I will have to to invest a $1000 plus to replace the aluminum center sections that i have been using for the past three years. I don't think NHRA realizes how many racers this will affect.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Just paint the aluminum carrier cast iron or black in color. It has been said here before many times that stock is an illusion. So use your illusion as Axl Rose says.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

No Ken they are clueless. this is getting so "business as usual" for them to make a non-thinking decision like this. The aluminum 8 3/4 center section is Chrysler produced and was a commonly installed production vehicle part! Jim

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Good for manufacturers, isn't it? :rolleyes:

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Sorry R J. Didn't get that. I don't have enough power to need one. LOL
I can see a stick needing that.

Won't know if it's fixed until Friday.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Well, lets see. I have a magnesium 8 3/4 housing from the 70's, I think that will be legal,LOL. Or maybe the Dana 44 aluminum center from a Jeep will work,. Jack asses!

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

The ONLY reason I can think that they are doing this for is to prevent the Mopar racers from using the V-10 Drag Pak unit in older cars,as it has a production 9" "aftermarket" rear end.Just a thought.

But to me I don't see the advantage of disallowing any aluminum OE style center section in stock,there is no performance gain.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Not sure why we have to keep the HVAC controls in the dash either. Guess they feel like they have to draw lines somewhere.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

I'm no chassis guy, but doesn't using an aluminum center reduce unsprung weight? Seems like a performance gain to me...

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Mark your kidding aren't you? If not, let me enlighten you, back to back there was no difference.

I guess being a traveling pro like yourself, $800 is just a drop in the bucket.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Not hardly Ken. $800 is a fill up of diesel. As a traveling pro, $800 is hard to come by!

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

If there is no performance gain, then what's the beef?? Run the iron one, it's cheaper. As for Ken buying the aluminum pieces and there is no performance gain, why do it? The aluminum housings are more hassle and more expensive.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Anytime you can move weight around there is an advantage somewhere. The closer the car/suspension is to optimum the more the little things matter. I can move 5 pounds from side to side and tell a slight difference in the leave. That really surprised me back about 15 years ago when a chassis builder told me to buy a good set of scales and taught me how to monitor the car's shocks, springs, etc. and keep records.
With that said, it may be more important in a 4 link car than a stocker chassis but some allowments in stock chassis bars are pretty advanced these days. It also brings up the point of "why did it take this many years to clarify a rule (and make it available in easy to understand terms) that many have taken advantage of and set records, won races, went thru indy tech with"? I wouldn't have thought twice about Ken's center section legal or not after reading the wording in the rule book. And I have personally seen MUCH greater infractions get told "have it fixed by next race".
Some would be shocked to see the many uses of stellite and titanium in some race cars. Remember the term "stronger than steal....lighter than aluminum.

And with what is being allowed as stock in todays factory produced "race cars", i really don't think the new clearer ruling is exactly right. But thats just my opinion.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

All I am going to say on the matter is, "It's crap like this that is ruining what is left of Stock.............

The InterNet is no friend of stability...just hit enter and the world is your stationary.......

Bob

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Don't forget that before you hit the "post reply" button, you have to mention the "safety factor" at least 3x!

I thought the aluminum rear end issue was made pretty clear several years ago with the same slip up & publicity by Evan Smith.
Performance advantage with aluminum drop out? Maybe not, but that's another 15# or more that can be shifted to the weight box. Now traction is that much better and the greasy track is not such an issue as some of the competitors. And some may ad that 15#'s to the front to better control the launch for improved ET's.
So yes, there could be significant ET reductions with this part.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

SS engine guy that is incredible that you can actually feel the 5 lbs difference when you leave. How much does 5 lbs affect your 60 ft??

Jeff you need to get your car out of moth balls and go but 15 lbs in your trunk and tell us what a "significant ET improvement" you obtain. Probalby a tenth, huh??

RJ

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

. The +/- 5lbs. can be the difference of whether I launch straight and stay in the groove. I have lost a couple thou. on a good track with a narrow groove to as much as .05 on a greasy hot track with bald spots. Placement of the car on the line is always important and i want to look at all the first 60 ft. The reason I was eager to learn about weight bias and scales was because some starting lines change from round to round so bad I was loosing races due to traction. Not a complete spin but not a perfect hook either. By the way, all the data logging and add on stuff is hung as high and far back in the car as possible. I wouldn't have thought it possible either until it was proven to me. I have been able in the past 10 years to use all the torque on the starting line that i can make where in the past I was detuning to make the launch better and possibly a little straighter.
I am in agreement with you guys. I read the rule same as most i guess and figured that aluminum was legal in the old cars. I also don't think that the reduced weight from an aluminum housing in most cars would mean anything et wise but in some cars a little can mean alot when races are won by thousanths. Especially in a heads up. I also don't think that using 3 quarts of zero weight picks up everything but i see that done alot. If the engine is built to utilize the reduced windage and stay together I see a tenth.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Jeff, you say maybe not, then you say its possible, and then you say significant. I do think you have any real knowledge if it does or does not help performance, I do.

My car weighs 3200 pounds and runs 9.80's, that is very light for my class AA, most are 3400 plus. If anyone is going to have an issue with spinning the tires it will be me. I have tested and there is no advantage what so ever. Oh yes, the difference in weight was 11 pounds for me. I would like to see data on how much performance is gained by moving 11 pounds in cars that weigh 3400 plus.

When I asked NHRA if it was a performance advantage, they told me it was not. So if NHRA does not think it is a performance advantage, this argument is mute.

Bob, maybe you should be the one not hitting enter.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

My statement indicates I do not believe there is an ET improvement in replacing the part, I do believe there can be an ET improvement in moving the reduced weight fore or aft in the car. And yes, I think that could be significant. "Significant" being of course a relative term. To me, and others like SS Engine Guy, .02 +/- would be considered significant. Some can't find or care about finding lost .200's in their car so as I said, it is a relative term. I can tell you running 10.50's in D/S 6+ years ago wasn't easy and wasn't by poo-poo'ing a hundredth here and there.

And I have to believe this is not a "Ken Miele's Mustang" rule proposal. It would apply to all that have a commercially available aluminum drop out center section. It could even open up the door to custom made aluminum 12 bolt and Dana 60 center sections if applied.
So while Ken Miele's Mustang may not garner .001 ET in moving weight around, the guy with the front-heavy low torque lower class car might experience a greater gain in ET. Or, as I stated previously, ET reduction could be realized on adding the lost weight to the front end. Just like SS Engine Guy, I've always made use of four corner scales.

As I also stated, I thought this issue was put to rest with the much publicized error of Evan Smith in his interpretation of the rule book. I guess if everybody swept that under the carpet then the argument would hold more weight.

And NHRA may have their eye on a bigger issue. If every OEM outsourced part was allowed in Stock, that would open the floodgates on any / all OEM referenced (Mopar Performance / Ford Racing Parts catalogs) parts inclusion in Stock. That's back to the old "be careful what you wish for" issue.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Jeff, You kind of beat me to a couple points here.

First of all , I always knew aluminum center sections weren't legal in Stock,...way before Evan's article.It had been asked for several times ,and declined in the past.

Next question: Would a tech guy be able to tell if a 12 bolt R&P were being used, at a glance?

Now we have a new situation brought on by NHRA. If the factory built new cars are acceptable in small quantity, then why not the rear end components ??

OEM, Ford in Ford, etc?

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Mark, you always new it was illegal in stock? Please tell me how you always new this. Explain to me where it says in the rule for replacing a rear with an aluminum center section is illegal. Below is the rule, point out were it says it is illegal.

REAR END

Original rear end may be replaced with another from the same
automobile manufacturer; truck rear end prohibited. Distance
between backing plates may not be changed. Any gear ratio that
fits third-member case or housing permitted. Limited-slip or
ratchet-type rear ends permitted. Reinforcement of spring perch
permitted. Spools permitted only with aftermarket axles.
Aftermarket axles not required for front-wheel-drive vehicles.
Larger brakes may be used. Replacement rear end may be
narrowed or widened to obtain original rear-end width. Bracing
or beefing up the rear-end housing permitted. Swing axle
differential may be replaced with conventional housing; stock
trailing arms must be retained, may be beefed up and adapted
to housing, must retain transverse spring. Must install Panhard bar.
Frame may be notched for driveshaft clearance. Distance between
OEM backing plates and OEM wheelbase must be maintained.
Coil-over shock or four-link adaptations prohibited.

See General Regulations 2:11.

Jeff, I think that argument is mute. According to NHRA is is not a performance advantage. Anyway I have data and you don't. As far as opening up a door to custom parts. First, it would have to be from the same manufacture. Second, you mean parts like aluminum cases that replace the cast iron cases on toploader's? Would you like me to run through the list of parts that are legal that will open up the door? The parts are not out sourced, Ford and Mopar offer aluminum center sections and they have for many years.

There is nothing stock about stock eliminator. Anyone who believes that is living in the past.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

[QUOTE=There is nothing stock about stock eliminator. Anyone who believes that is living in the past. [/QUOTE]

That is sad but very true.
Ken you got a raw deal, They should have just told you not to come back with the centersection. But then you would have had letters go to all the division techs telling them that you were "cheating" and to watch out for you.
That's what happened to me last year with my louvered fenders.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Kenny, Like I said , asked and answered, many times.

I don't see where it's allowed, either. It seems clear to me.

You and I know they can't list every item not legal in the rule book. The book would look like the NYC phone directory.
I'm pretty sure NOS is not allowed , or mentioned in the stock section either.

Look, you've got a good case, with the new cars...Follow that route...

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

What Chuck Nelson and Wesley always told me : "If the rule book does not say you can, you can't."

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

WHEW I'm glad you said NOS is not legal in Stock, You didn't mention Superstock, I guess I dodged a bullet. LOL

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Well Mark it is not clear to me. It says I can replace a rear as long it is from the same manufacture. How you come to the conclusion it says you can't is beyond me. I would love to here from a legal mind when they read that line.

Your assumption that they can't list every item in the rule book is wrong. They sure can, but they don't.

Ed, it does not say I can use an aftermarket shifter, but we all do. When are you going to remove yours?

Art, I'm well prepared for what could happen in the future. I have been there before.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Ken, What year and model 9" came with an aluminum center section from the factory?

Aftermarket shifters ARE mentioned in the stick shift section. The auto section kind of dances all around it. They've been allowed for at least the last 50 years.Common knowledge.
The point is, as I said ,the rule book can't possibly spell out yay or nay on every conceivable item.

Hey, where is the love ( for NHRA) this week?

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

CJ Mustang 2008-2010.

What year was the aluminum spool available in? The rule book says you can use a spool, but it does not say you can use aluminum one. It says we can you aftermarket wheels, it doesn’t say we can use aluminum. So your telling me that every part on a car has to have been available when produced?

I read the rule book, where does it say in a dancing around way you can use an aftermarket shifter with an auto trans. I don't see any dancing around, maybe you have a different rule book then me. So your reasoning for a rule is if it has been used for over fifty years its okay.

I have not said anything derogatory about NHRA, I just want the rule clarified, I don't think it is to much to ask.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

How does the rule apply to the new cars? Can you put a non-aluminum 9" rear in a new Mustang?

Also, the distance between the backing plates mentioned in the rule book. Look at the wheel offset of a lot of the stock eliminator cars. You can see some cars have a lot more wheel offset than another of the same type.

I still have to say, why are these kind of things such a big deal when you know you are racing against electronics such as tree readers and matty boxes.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Kenny , Don't get me wrong. I think you got a bad deal. They should have let you by, pending a new ruling.

A lot of this stuff depends on how you argue it.

" I got it out of a 2008 CJ. I put it in a couple years ago . It's OEM now (good argument)


"It was in the car when I got it. It doesn't say in the rulebook that you CAN'T use it" (bad argument)

BTW, Once the rulebook says you CAN use an aftermarket item, there's no need to spell out every type of material it can be made out of.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Mark, I didn't know you were such expert on on the rule book. I should have consulted with you before I built my car.

And since you are the expert here, can I replace my center section with an aftermarket as long as it is steel, even though there is no mention about aftermarket cases. Remember if it does not say I can, it means I can't.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

Sorry I offended you.

Re: Ford and Mopar Aluminum R/E Cases??
 

There used to be a section in the rule book that said something like..."can not replace parts with lighter versions of parts unless specifically stated"...or words to that effect. I no longer see that but I believe that is the tradition that NHRA follows.
I'm with Mark, a specific rule and possible interpretation to every nut and bolt on a Stocker would take volumes to address.

I once challenged that since the OEM has roller rockers (like an LT4 as an example) that they should be allowed on a 327. Apparently NHRA doesn't see it that way.

And Ken, just because you can't find a performance advantage to running an aluminum center section in Stock doesn't mean it can't be done. The fact I have no experience in this (in Stock) has no bearing. When I raced S/ST I took advantage of putting an aluminum 9" in that car. And my present car has gun-drilled axles, back-cut gears and scalloped spool. So I do put my money on the fact there are improvements.