Car classification ?
 

I am having trouble using the class guide to figure out what class my car would fit using the 1970- 383 (304hp rating) GT motor with OEM heads for fresh air package.The car is a 68 Dart set up for SS with either hood, GTS or hemi.
Thanks

Re: Car classification ?
 

I think the hemi or even a plain jane 318 trim car is a natural D car @ 3055 lbs. and could drop to C weight @ 2905 or add and run E @ 3210. I think the GTS package is natural F @ 3365 can run E @ 3210 or G @ 3520. Might want to get this verified, I think it's right maybe Travis can check it when he gets back from Joliet.

Ernie

Re: Car classification ?
 

I don't see where you got the 304 HP rating? With OEM heads, the GT Rating is 300HP. With replacement heads, the HP is 309. That would put the OEM engine in GT/EA with the fiberglass components, and GT/FA with the GTS body. With the replacement heads, it would fit in GT/DA and GT/FA.

Re: Car classification ?
 

Shoulda stayed away, right Will? LOL

Re: Car classification ?
 

Yep, every since the late 70's when you corrupted me with your SS car then the Super Modified Camaro I have been addicted. Deb is real proud of you and has a few words for you................hahahaha

Re: Car classification ?
 

I thought I read in the 1970 Dodge car classification guide for GT it was 304 for auto and 300 for stick. But all of this is pretty confusing for an old computer illiterate guy. I guess I am not too sure where to be looking. Jim Hale has a motor for me and told me I could run my hemi hood because it was a fresh air package motor. He wasn't exactly sure where it would fall as a GT car. And I think he said it was a 70.

Thanks for the help.

Re: Car classification ?
 

70 383 is 304HP in GT, I'm doing the same motor, which will power my Sport Fury until the Challenger is done.

Re: Car classification ?
 

You are correct, and I was wrong. I now see where the 1970 - 383 is 304 HP with the oem heads, for GT. That would put a 1968 lightweight in GT/DA and a GTS in F.

Re: Car classification ?
 

Thanks for all the info everyone. Now one more question. How did you determine the DA or FA classification. Type slow as I am old!

Re: Car classification ?
 

Will
You can't just run the 68 hemi Hood. You have to claim the 68 hemi body to run the hood and that includes a lot of other things. The fenders, window straps and on the Dart it is a different wheelbase than a stock Dart. This all depends on the job tech does. Your base weight would be 3020. DA would be 304 x 9.5 + 170 = 3058. FA is 10.5 x 304 + 170 = 3362. Think they round down to the closest 5lb. You might check my math but I think its right.

Re: Car classification ?
 

The "lightweight" 1968 wheelbase is one inch less than a GTS. Therefore, the wheelbase needs to be 110". Regarding lightweight components, you do not have to have the acid doors, light windows, fiberglass fenders, or window straps. But you could have them. You would want the hood and the fresh air scoop, and it is legal.

Re: Car classification ?
 

Last time I talked to Bruce Bachelder on this, which was likely at least 2 years ago at the Southerns, I was told in order to run part of a package you has to run it all. If you want the hood scoop, the car has to tech as a SS/AH car with a different engine. At that time the windows could be changed to lexan or stock glass and the doors could be non-dipped. Same with the 64 cars. If you run the alum hood, you need the fenders too. This may have changed so a call to NHRA would be a good idea.

Re: Car classification ?
 

It doesn't make any sense to have to put on fiberglass fenders only to have to add the weight back in somewhere else. Anyway, for what it is worth, a former Super Stock world champion is now running his 68 Dart in GT. Hood only. It is OK.....I am also considering my options with the lightweight hood also.

Re: Car classification ?
 

Thanks guys for some things to consider and check out. At this time I now have an idea of where in GT the car should fall.
This car was originally built to run in the Nostalgia Super Stock classes so it has most of the AH setup, window straps, doors, fenders, lw glass, correct trim, etc but without the latest funny car type cage and rear suspension. Now I am concerned about having to meet roll cage requirements for the AH class specifications.
Stewart, I think we talked about doing this 2 years ago when I was trying to get a 383 rod approved by NHRA.

Re: Car classification ?
 

Yes we did Will. As for the cage you only need to meet the safety requirements for the class you run. You will need a 8.50-9.99 cage in GT/A thru GT/G. 25.4 or 5 cage is only needed if you run 8.49 or quicker.

Yea, I saw the Dart at Vegas I think it was. Saw the front fenders had side lights but thought they still could have been glass. Guess not. As for it not making sense ( NHRA rules don't always "make sense") to have the glass fenders and have to add weight somewhere else, I thought thats why most people put lightweight componants on the front of a car, so the could "add the weight back in somewhere else". Thats why they are on my car, plus I was told they had to be.

Re: Car classification ?
 

Gentlemen,

SS/GT is a little different than SS in that there is no "natural" class for a GT car. You take the heaviest model of your choosing (in this case the heaviest GTS is the 440 @ 3229; there was no Hemi in a 1969 Dart according to the class guide).

You divide the shipping weight of the car chosen and divide that number by the horsepower of your engine. In this case it's the 1970 383 - 330/335 rerated to 304 with OEM heads. That number is 9.80. Since GT/DA is a 9.50 weight break, you would be running at a .30 per horsepower disadvantage in GT/DA @ 3145 instead of at the top of the class at 3055. This car can also run GT/EA @ 3210, GT/FA @ 3360 or GT/GA @ 3510.

I hope this clarifies the way to calculate SS/GT weights.

Re: Car classification ?
 

Ryck
The car in question is a 68, not a 69.
3 questions.
First, since the rulebook says you can adjust the weight a maximum of 250 lbs can't you remove 90 lbs to get to the 9.5 break? You could also run C at 9.0 or 2906 since it is less than 250 lbs from the natural 9.80 break. Not that you could get the car that light with a 383/440. Also, using your example, how can you run GT/GA at 3510 since that is 285 greater than the 3225 weight at 9.8?
Second question. Since we are talking 68, would you not use the Hemi weight of 3020 because the rule book says "by using the power to weight factor of the vehicle with the heaviest gasoline engine"? The Hemi is the heavieat gasoline engine. The rule book doesn't say use the "heaviest model", it says "vehicle with the heaviest gasoline engine".
Third. Almost hate to ask this one. If question #2 answer is use the Hemi factor for a 68, then would you not have to use the body equipment required on that car? Meaning you need the glass fenders as well as the hood. If the answer to 2 is "heaviest model', how can we add the glass hood (and fenders) since they were never on the 440?
Thanks for weighing in.

Re: Car classification ?
 

The Hemi is the heavieat gasoline engine. The rule book doesn't say use the "heaviest model", it says "vehicle with the heaviest gasoline engine".

Your verbiage may be off...but if not, then NHRA would have to know the weight of all engines and then you run into the issue of how to weigh them (exhaust manifolds, accessories, etc.). NHRA would need to know the weight of a slant-six and everything in between it and the Hemi.
I believe the accepted method of calculating is you use the heaviest shipping weight and if a 440 Dart is heavier than a Hemi Dart, then 440 weight is what you use.
I've communicated with NHRA on verbiage and they have changed the rule as a result. I'd suggest you do the same on this.

Re: Car classification ?
 

Jeff
My verbiage isn't off. I don't have any verbiage. I'm just reading what NHRA has in its rulebook. But deep down inside I know your right on how they figure the weight. I messed up when I built my car. I built it to AH specs and used the 3020 weight and planned on running GT/D but with the heavier minimum looks like its a GT/F car and 305 lbs heavier.

Re: Car classification ?
 

So the 383 2x4 using an old Wiend tunnel ram didn't pencil out?

Re: Car classification ?
 

Hold on a second. OK, here is the senerio. You want to put a 1970 - 383 in a 1968 lightweight body. In the classification guide, the "lightweight" body is a Dart 2 door coupe. Not a 270, GT, or a GTS. Therefore, per the classification guide, the heaviest gasoline engine in the "2 door coupe" is the Race Hemi. The weight is 3,020 pounds. So, the 1970 383 is 304 HP. So, the factor is 9.93. That puts the car in GT/D. The minimum weight with the driver (to get to the bottom of the class), is then 3,058, rounded down to 3,055.

The shipping weight can be adusted up to 250 pounds to fit in a class. Using this senerio, the weight adjustment to fit in the class is 132 pounds, and perfectly legal. You could not get this combination into GT/C because that would be a 284 pound adjustment and over the 250 pound limit. This car could move down to GT/E. That is only a 20 pound adjustment.

Regarding lightweight components. The rules state: "Aluminum or other lightweight material may not be used to replace heavier items on car." No mention of replacing lightweight material with something heavier. Therefore, the literal interpretation is that is is legal to claim a 'lightweight' 1968 without having fiberglass fender, acid dipped doors and bumpers, and lightweight glass.

From a realistic perspective, if you want to run this car at the bottom of the class, you will probably need all of the lightweight "stuff". Hope this clears it up.

Re: Car classification ?
 

Your right. I never noticed the SS darts were listed under the 270. Since they were made from GTS 383 cars I was looking at the GTS. Maybe I should have picked a Dart and not a Cuda. There is only one listing as a Cuda fastback and the 383 is the heaviest so I may be stuck with that.

Jeff
I decided to go with the 345/305 Drag Pak Hemi and a Jerico. Thats why I wanted it light. Big difference between 3065 and 3370.
Guess I can get into GT/E at 3225. Not quite so bad.

Re: Car classification ?
 

Good choice Stewart.....That engine is factored at 305 for GT and 401 if in a Challenger. Could have fun with that for a while. Good luck.

Re: Car classification ?
 

Stewart,
My mistake, I thought I read 69. To answer your "First" point. The 250 was already subtracted before I divided by the horsepower. Using the example that I previously used:

heaviest 1969 Dart GTS shipping weight 3229
minus the allowable 250 -250
equals 2979
divided by the factored hp of engine / 304
equals 9.80 this is the lightest the car can be.

So for GT/DA it is 9.80 x 304 + 170 = 3149 or 3145 scale weight.

The car gets to GT/GA 3229 shipping weight plus 250 = 3479 divided by 304 = 11.44 and G is an 11 pound class.

Second: Class is determined by the Classification Guide which contains shipping weights of vehicles; not the weight of an engine. In the case that I used you could not use the Hemi hood. Even if the car was a 1968, if the car did not contain all components necessary to be a "Hemi car" then the hood could not be used either.

Third: If the car has all Hemi car components (obviously less engine) then the 3020 shipping weight would be used but only if all components are there.

Jeff, I think I answered your question above but since we use the Classification Guide ot classify cars then it's the shipping weight that we use.

Re: Car classification ?
 

Ryck
Thanks for the responses. Still think the Verbiage of heaviest vehicle vs heaviest engine needs work in th rulebook.

Will.
Well I'm sure your confused now. My advise is check with your division on what is required on your dart to run the hood. I always thought those who refered to the "West Coast Rulebook" were joking, now I'm not so sure.

Re: Car classification ?
 

I'm very confused now. I called Cali twice and Div 1 once and all times was told that I could run the aluminum hood without fenders in SS or GT but not stock. I was told I could run it with the 70 383 in GT/HA. If the Hemi car has to have the lightweight fenders why doesn't the 63 car.

Re: Car classification ?
 

Stewart,
Great combo for you to run, sounds like it will be a killer in class! Get it done quickly as the HP life of that engine will die a quick death once it makes the GT scene!

Re: Car classification ?
 

All of this sounds like "WHO's ON FIRST" !