Why can stock be really stock?
 

Ok, I know I'm going to get blasted for this, but here goes. Why can stock eliminator be really all stock components. Stock should be stock and if and when your budget allows you to, you can move to super stock if this is what you want. As far as I'm concern building a stocker(I'm presently doing) is more like building a super stocker. Maybe NHRA should introduce Pure Stock back to allow some new blood back in our sport. Motor, transmission,suspension and everything else are putting a drag on the build. I love the ingenuity that stock racer bring with their many types of combo's(one of the reasons I enjoy Indy so much) from PT Cruisers to Cadillacs all have found a place to race in Stock eliminator and I hope that it never stops but we have to stop the bleeding and return to our roots. NHRA Bring Back Pure Stock! Claude Ruel

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

IHRA has Pure Stock so why not NHRA. Maybe that's why "N" won't do it - "I" has it. I think it's a great idea. Likely at least somewhat cheaper than Stock Eliminator as it is today.

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

IHRA already has this but IHRA isnt all over the country for everyone. The so called pure stock class' IHRA has is very similar to the old Jr. stock. When stock was really stock as in 1972 in NHRA it was a joke. Guys still cheated like crazy and tear down was a major pain in the butt. Thats the reason the way stock is what it is today. The tech guys who really know/knew this stuff are long gone except for maybe good people like Travis,Dave Ley and Westly. Its labor intensive to have tear downs like we used to have back befor 1985 or so before the cam and valve spring rules changed. They might as well combine stock and S/S these days as todays stockers are more radical than my old SS/IA Camaro was in 1977/78.

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

This sounds like an interesting idea - after all, "everything old is new again!"

Case in point - Roy Hill is building a Mustang Cobra Jet Super Stock for "Match Racing"! The idea being (I guess!) is to get others to build DP's and Mustang's (and Camaro's?) to race each other around the country. Is this 1964 again???

Who builds the first "altered wheelbase" DP? My head's still spinning! :eek:

Lew

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

I doubt it will fly. About 11 years ago we tried to set up best out of 3 or 5 match races with some of the better known IHRA top stockers (NHRA racers also and before the crate engine joke that GM rammed down our throats). Guys like Mike Keener, Jim Morgan, and some others in 9 second and 10 flat REAL A/S and B/s cars. Wheel standing gear jamming on a 5 tenths pro tree and all. it was the best show on the planet the first year kind pof like real Pro Stock in 1970 but it went no where.

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

Terry,didn't the threat of "lawyer intervention" help kill Top Stock?????????????

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

The way I see the problem, is simply change the name from stock to jr. super stock. Then we would not have to worry about what is stock and what is not stock.

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

Ed. G.M pulled the plug on sponsorship, so we (the racers) were forced to self sponsor the class and it was expensive and it caused many racers to stop racing or switch class. soon after things fell apart, to this day i miss Top/Stock at the end it was called Pro Top/Stock...Luke SS 311

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

Im not quite sure about the "Lawyer intervention" part of it killing it off but it was the forever expansion of rules and the massive cheating not to mention the "buying off" of a tech official who was supposed to be checking this crap several years after I threw in the towel. The existence of non stock intake manifolds on the now allowed FI cars and ported throttle bodies on LS 1 type engines and so on. The GM engineer (Gary Penn) screwed it all up initionally by shoving the crate motors down our throats. Myself and Mike Keener had our "hands tied". It was a good idea in the beginning but when outside forces who know NOTHING about stock racing try to run the show it turned into a nightmare. Even Keener gave up not long after I quit. When it became a "Self sponsored" race one team in particular bought their way into a Championship. The rules went crazy in the allowed parts and no one was around to police it. It was a circus. Or better yet you could call it a "Monkey F##K". It became like allowing the inmates running the crazy house. If the new cars are allowed in a top stock program as I heard MIGHT be revived (Not in IHRA) then it will be a joke all over again with the bogus HP factors being used. Lets hope they wont be allowed to run with the older cars unless the HP factor are brought up to speed or a new DP or Mustang will be all you see running heads up.

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

Mr Janes, we have super stock exactly for that direction, we still need stock. In a purest form only format. There is so many great combinations such as Ed Fernandez, Billy Nees who are proving that you can do so much with what you have.CR

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

Well said Claude, and I wish that would be true too...look at Michael Beard, he today was just one round win away from creating history this century, with a non-DP/CJ/wheelie barred stocker! I often wonder why can't stock be really stock too???

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

Ego's, money, lack of tech today and being caught cheating are 4 reasons.

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

you can't buy stock parts today
junk yards do not have old cars anymore

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

I know IHRA would like more Pure Stockers to show up,it's not as pure stock as used to be,any converter,slicks9X29.5,rearend upgrades,headers w/mufflers. cam duration,overlap,lift ,valve springs still checked,no elec. water pumps.,mech fuel pump.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

Certain items that are now allowed were almost impossable to check or way to time consuming in tear downs such as a REAL OEM cam. Most were found to be running a regrind anyway like the NHRA deal in 1972. Why do you think NHRA went to rate of lift cams around 1974? They gave up trying to police it. Torque converters were another area. A converter can be made to stall low yet have a higher stall speed when raced. Im not sure about the tires today but when I last worked the tire could be no larger than 29.0. Should have been 28 inch hi max. With the use of the current tires the rear end up grade was a necessity or we would have had broken cars every run PLUS they are supposed to use a posi and not a spool. Do ya think they are checked for that today.....LOL. . The OEM exhaust manifold game became a joke with guys running 383's and 440's in late model 'Cudas and Challengers trying to argue the max wedge manifolds came on their cars.....LOL. Reason for the headers WITH a real non straight thru muffler. No empty beer cans or glass packs. If the cam duration and overlap and valve springs are checked these days (I doubt its being done) then its as close to pre 1972 Jr. stock as one can get. To bad most of the racers are not running the older cars instead of the late model FI stuff. I should have written in a max year rule of pre FI or carb non computer cars when it was done. Hind sight is 20/20 !

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

Terry, you're right about where NHRA is going with it's limited tech support, I know that they have problems giving their tech staff support for stock and super stock, I'm sure that they wouldn't be interested in another class that would need even more scrutiny. Pure stock should be no slick, tire size that that the model came with and so on. NHRA could profit on the long term with new blood bringing their new 5.0 Mustang, don't forget all those 300hp plus v6 out there in the form of Challengers, Mustangs, Camaro's and all new Trucks with the new ecoboost 6 from Ford, I can see many young men and young women involve at that stage. Just my two cents but it's been awhile sine we've seen so many new cars with much horspower available. Claude

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

Vic, you and Terry hit the nails on their heads...I just look at the stockers today, and feel that the addition of things such as Wheelie bars, and inline 4spds, are more Super Stock type of stuff than stock worthy...besides, many of the things the faster cars get to use now aren't available for many slower rollers...Terry are wheelie bars legal for fwd stockers? That would be cool if they were (fair too), and I might have to get one for my car?

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

Stock got messed up when Schubeck lifters where allowed and it was because of people crying that they lifters going bad on camshafts that shouldn't be running the valve spring pressures that they were applying. The valve spring rules should have been kept to what ever pressure you could get away with with the use of a STOCK lifter that you can buy at the local parts store. I asked a tech person one time out at Indy, "if they don't allow any exotic materials in Pro Stock, why is it allowed in Stock?" He replyed to me that he didn't know what I was talking about, so I told him about Schubeck lifters, that they are a very exotic materialed product and that they are not commonly available in any parts store. He just schrugged with no answer. I look at stock eliminator cars now as expense ET with a stock appearance. I personally keep my car in appearance as it did in the 70's, yes, I now have the same lifters and trans ( H patern with original shifter) as everyone else, because you can't run the number now with out going overboard. If NHRA gave back the .3 on the index, I could use at least the stock lifters again. Stock in now a modified production class in stock looking bodies.

Casey Miles
248H Stock?

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

X's 1000,000,0000000000000000000000 on the last staement !

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

Boy ,that makes me feel good about my car since i ain't got none of that tricky stuff.(but i would if i had the funds) I'm right proud of my ole peice running like it does for what i have done....

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

Oh no, They knew exactly what they were doing. It's all about trolling for sponsors that they can shake down for their contingency program. It's just more money that they don't have to pay out themselves. It can then go to high CEO salaries and real estate.

Add it up .Joe Schubeck ,former owner of Lakewood Industries, former big time NHRA sponsor.

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

Danny: My problem is that the '69 Camaro Z/28 is booked the same as the '67 & 68, they are far from the same and I have to carry the weight everytime the other cars hit the hp of the 302, which is still carrying weight from the Jr. Stock times. I've tried to keep mine as close as possible to the way I used to race it in the '70's, I still have mufflers on it so that I can drive it other then at the track. It's licenced and insured for highway use. Got a tanker truck behind it though when I do drive it.
What I don't understand, is when the people that hit your HP, don't carry the weight because they think that it can be rounded down to the lower equal number. Instead of 309 HP, they round it down to 305 HP @ Indy last year.
Casey Miles
248H Stock?

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

I agree Claude.
In my opinion, this is the most exciting time in automotive history for gearheads. Power, safety and comfort are easy now.

Now that Ma Mopar is making a decent power level with their newest V-6, all 3 companies make a cool V-6.

It would be a shame if one or both sanctioning bodies would pass on an oppurtunity to get owners of the V-6 cars involved in class racing.

The 5.0 Mustang is smoking hot right now with the Ford groupies.
Amatuer drivers can get into a new 5.0 Stang and run mid 13's easy.
In IHRA Pure Stock trim I wonder how easy it would be to run 11's ?

Re: Why can stock be really stock?
 

Alan, let me borrow a quote from Julius Ceasar, great minds think a like but fool's seldom differ.lol I think Billy Nees started a thread on some pretty neat combination. Glad to see that a breath of fresh air blowing in the stocker wings. Claude