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-   -   NHRA letter on AHFS.... (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=34380)

Wade_Owens 06-29-2011 09:22 PM

NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Dear NHRA and Tech Dept,

I’m writing you this letter in hopes of getting you to reconsider some of the policies concerning AHFS and the 1.00 under trigger at all races.

I have always loved Stock and Super Stock racing. I would go every week to our local track, hoping that SS/K car would be there or some other class guy who had to test before a “big race”. Then, when I raced my own car in SS during the mid 1990’s, it was a dream come true. I still believe these are the coolest race cars ever. But, I feel NHRA has lost touch with what some of its racers wants.

As you are well aware, the AHFS was modified over the winter, due largely in part to the Drag Packs and Cobra Jets. I feel like when Indy qualifying was over, it left a big black mark on the low horsepower factors, necessitating the change. But, the system was and is flawed because it still can be manipulated. Take a look at how many guys have slowed their car down because of this. Many are now in protect mode, to save their factor. Most believe a heads up may come some day, and want to be ready for the challenge. In classes where performance is supposed to shine, it has been dulled significantly by the trigger and AHFS. To me, it IS still a performance based eliminator, otherwise, why do we qualify? Why not just go to an all run and random pairings with no heads ups? You know as well as I do this
would be the end of Class racing.

NHRA told us that you, along with the manufacturers had to restructure the payouts to save class racing. But, it really goes deeper than that. With the current damper on showing your cars potential, why would I call my converter guy and spend $1000 to gain a few more hundreths? Why call the cam guy and spend $900 on that updated cam and lifters? Why spend the $200 extra bucks on axles for the real light stuff? All of the above support class winners. As far as it goes, why work to do ANYTHING to improve the car. Don’t you think the class sponsors want us spending our money with them? Why would they want to consider continuing support if they thought we weren’t going to buy anything, possibly for years? Come on guys, this is what would really upset the manufacturers and maybe cause them to pull their sponsorship money. 75% off the time, I had to race someone in class. I do realize how much the companies were spending and often wondered how they could do it. Some of them raised prices to offset cost of class winners, some put a time limit on your product purchase, still others require the proof of purchase. All are fine with me, as long as they pay as promised and I always look at who supports us before I buy any item for the car. But what if we didn’t buy anything?

I’m not saying for a second that there shouldn’t be some attempt at parity. What I am saying is there should be a way to keep the performance aspect going, too. Someone mentioned about giving bonus points to the top 3 or 5 qualifiers of each event. This would definitely be interesting towards the end of the year. I can see guys taking hits for the much needed points. Also noted was giving bonus points for setting the record. Same deal, could make for some interesting scenarios come fall.

I would like to see you guys lift the trigger and eliminate AHFS data for the SportsNationals races. (Its only 3 races a year) Why? This is supposed to be for the backbone sportsman. With no Alcohol cars present, the show becomes the Stock and Super Stock class runoffs. Wouldn’t you want it to showcase how fast these cars can go and how hard some of the owners have worked to get them there? All of the “old timers” talk about beating so and so or how bad so and so beat me one time. NONE of them say “he lifted at 1000’”. You would still have all of the other races, Nationals, Divisionals and Opens to calculate your data. But, this would give the performance oriented guys a place to stretch their legs, show off or stroke their egos, or whatever, depending on who is telling the story.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I really do enjoy class racing and want to see it around for many years to come. Please look out for our best interest along with the manufacturers and yours.

See you at the races,
Wade Owens

Above is a copy of a letter I sent to NHRA Tech. I would like some feedback on what you guys think too. I would hope this will stay a positive discussion, but, I'm also a realist.

CBS 06-29-2011 09:34 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Nice letter Wade....there has to be somewhere that we can go fast.....and it's only 3 races a year.....guys would go just because of that.....I know our car seems to be running about the same as last year (120 pounds lighter) not sure why....lol

Rock
SS/CA

Michael Beard 06-29-2011 09:44 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
If cars were factored properly to begin with, we wouldn't need the AHFS, and people could run it all out. :rolleyes:

Jim Wahl 06-29-2011 09:49 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
A little off subject but....... Len Imbrogno told me several years ago after the NHRA saw how successful the Cajun SportsNationals Race was that the goal was to put one Sportsman SportsNational Race in every Division. I guess that went out the window when they ran Len off. Jim

Ed Fernandez 06-29-2011 09:53 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Nice letter with good points made.Please don't take my points as criticism.I don't think the upper echelon of NHRA is going to change the way things are running as far as the structure of S/SS.The present fan structure at national events are focused on the fuel cars.
Notice the stands empty out as soon as T/F and F/C finish.
Also the structure of the currant AHFS seems to be to their liking.Only recently have some of the new cars started to show the potential they're capable of.
As far as class payouts I think the sponsors are really showing the effects of the economy,the roadblocks put up in front of them by NHRA in the way of fees and over the years the growth in numbers of races they have to be committed to in maying postings available.Remember in the 60s and 70s how many major races did they post contingency for.There were also way less companies out there making race parts,so they got a larger market share.
Lastly you have a different cross section of racers now in S/SS.Now you have diehard
go fast guys,bracket racers,casual (as in attending 2-3 races a year),etc.
I'd love to have things revert back to a simpler racing structure,but I think it's just a natural
progression of progress that we're seeing in all forms of racing.
Remember when NASCAR was all a bunch of good ol' tobacco chewers,with some moonshiners mixed in for good measure?
The preceeding was written with apologies to all that think I'm just whiney old ba$tard.

Jim Wahl 06-29-2011 10:24 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Beard (Post 266478)
If cars were factored properly to begin with, we wouldn't need the AHFS, and people could run it all out. :rolleyes:

The 800 pound gorilla is in the room! Jim:rolleyes:

.

Chuck Norton 06-29-2011 10:44 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fernandez (Post 266484)
The preceeding was written with apologies to all that think I'm just whiney old ba$tard.

To quote that eminent philosopher, Leroy Jethro Gibbs: Rule #6: Never apologize. It's a sign of weakness.

Dennis P Chapman 06-29-2011 10:52 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
[QUOTE=Ed Fernandez;266484]Nice letter with good points made.Please don't take my points as criticism.I don't think the upper echelon of NHRA is going to change the way things are running as far as the structure of S/SS.The present fan structure at national events are focused on the fuel cars.
Notice the stands empty out as soon as T/F and F/C finish.
Also the structure of the currant AHFS seems to be to their liking.Only recently have some of the new cars started to show the potential they're capable of.
As far as class payouts I think the sponsors are really showing the effects of the economy,the roadblocks put up in front of them by NHRA in the way of fees and over the years the growth in numbers of races they have to be committed to in maying postings available.Remember in the 60s and 70s how many major races did they post contingency for.There were also way less companies out there making race parts,so they got a larger market share.
Lastly you have a different cross section of racers now in S/SS.Now you have diehard
go fast guys,bracket racers,casual (as in attending 2-3 races a year),etc.
I'd love to have things revert back to a simpler racing structure,but I think it's just a natural
progression of progress that we're seeing in all forms of racing.
Remember when NASCAR was all a bunch of good ol' tobacco chewers,with some moonshiners mixed in for good measure?
The preceeding was written with apologies to all that think I'm just whiney old ba$tard.
You are old Ed Lol
Very good letter Wade I hope it works.

Alan Roehrich 06-29-2011 11:07 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Norton (Post 266497)
To quote that eminent philosopher, Leroy Jethro Gibbs: Rule #6: Never apologize. It's a sign of weakness.

And he got it from Captain Nathan Brittles.













Played by John Wayne, in the cavalry classic "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon".

Ed Fernandez 06-29-2011 11:42 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
I follow the philosophies of Rufus T. Firefly and Col. Jeffrey T Spaulding.With a bit of
Otis P. Driftwood for good measure.

SS Engine Guy 06-30-2011 12:08 AM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
I'm with Mr. Beard on this one. Factor closer and problem solved. Never happen unless another venue emerges. Also suddenly fast comes to mind.

Phillip marvetz 06-30-2011 04:30 AM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
And the HP factor for the new 5.0 Ford is what?

james schaechter 06-30-2011 05:47 AM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Certainly a well thought out letter. No matter what your opinion, I do think that the approach to send it to NHRA is still a necessary one. Far too many post on line here and elsewhere and yet they never voice their opinion to NHRA officially. I agree, it seems that they don't seem to understand,or at least the people that do respond don't feel that they can make a change even if they wanted to. I would hope if enough people did communicate to them officially and not just on line, under an avatar, there would be a better chance for improvements.

I think that there needs to be some process change that gets people excited about the Division race participation. The Nationals don't seem to be a concern, but the local track operators need the car counts to be able to afford to have us in the show.

If NHRA supported changes that made people WANT to go, maybe the car counts at a Division level would improve.

I also think that offering a class runoff as an extra optional race in some fashion at the Division races could be successful for the operators and fun for the racers too. The AHFS process would likely need to be adjusted there in order for that to happen.

ron mattson 06-30-2011 09:32 AM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Good letter Wade, i think that is a very good point of view for us classracers. I would
love to see a Sportsnational type race in every division as we are kinda in no mans land
up here in siberia/minnesota. Giving our idea's to NHRA is the only way they may change
as they are not mindreaders, all we can do is ask!!!!

Bob Bender 06-30-2011 09:34 AM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Wade, great letter. I agree 100%.

Another Friendly Racer 06-30-2011 11:19 AM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
I agree that it is a well thought out letter that Wade wrote with many excellent points. If we get rid of the AHFS, where do we go? Back to the days of a committee determining horsepower? I remember certain guys with unique cars qualifying -.30 under all year just to get 10 horsepower taken off their combo that in actuality already had #1 qualifier potential. The next year they would dominate qualifying/ class eliminations. There are enough politics involved already with the factory race cars being allowed to destroy the actual stockers. I dont want to go back to those days of more politics.

I have to believe that 95% percent of stock/super stock cars out there do not have the capability of going -1.00 under. With that being said, 95% of us keep looking for ways to go faster and keep purchasing performance parts to keep up with guys like Wade, Rock, and the other 5%.

Here might be a crazy solution: You can not dial more than 2 tenths faster than your qualifying time. You can also not run more than 2 tenths faster than your qualifying time in a heads up race. This should very much discourage sandbagging and make the AHFS greatly more effective.

Greg Hill 06-30-2011 11:21 AM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Wade, that is an excellent thought. The biggest problem I see is the bogus factoring of these new combinations. If you raise the trigger or make it more difficult to get horsepower it just takes longer for these obviously under factored cars to get hit. We need a horsepower committee made up of racers, engine builders, and tech people with some brains to get the hp closer on these new combinations. If that were done I would agree whole heartedly with you.

The problem is that NHRA is never going to give up any control on this because they have been bought and paid for by Chrysler and Ford. There are some older combinations that may be a little soft 10-20 hp but a lot of the new carts are still as much as 100 soft. As long as this is in place there really is no good way to regulate hp. One of these new cars gets hit like the 5.7 hemi to the tune of 99hp it's still #1 qualifier at Norwalk.

Doug McCue 06-30-2011 01:01 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
one thing that will bring more sportman racers out is a bigger payback similar to the stock/superstock advertised elsewhere in this forum.

04GTOMan 06-30-2011 07:00 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
I don't know whats going on with the NHRA. I raced a max wedge 415 hp back in the 70s d/sa and you had to have the right engine, trans ,ect,ect. I'm just now getting back into it and i'm dissapointed about the new rules. I was hoping to run stock eliminater, but after reading and hearing the forums I 'll just run brackets.

Joe DeMarzo 06-30-2011 08:22 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Great letter Wade and I agree something needs to be done. There are a lot, more than most think that are "old style cars" that can run 1.0 under the new index. Most are focused with the new cars becasue they can do it so easy. The current system is better than the old ways and better than nothing until something better comes along. It is and always will be moving forward a game to protect ones combination. It would be nice to see stock/super stockers unload somewhere without getting HP, it was and is a performance class with bracket features. A looming heads up is what makes it so cool in my opinion..

Todd Hoven 06-30-2011 08:29 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Have fun they are a great place to race


Quote:

Originally Posted by 04GTOMan (Post 266682)
I don't know whats going on with the NHRA. I raced a max wedge 415 hp back in the 70s d/sa and you had to have the right engine, trans ,ect,ect. I'm just now getting back into it and i'm dissapointed about the new rules. I was hoping to run stock eliminater, but after reading and hearing the forums I 'll just run brackets.


Ed Carpenter 07-01-2011 08:05 AM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Put Wesley Robertson in charge of HP ratings and everything would take care of itself.

Tony Janes 07-01-2011 09:16 AM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
That would be to much power to one person.

CBS 07-01-2011 04:28 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
How about taking it off for Indy......in class elims.....maybe just the 1.20 or 1.30 auto hit...in place...now that would be fun to watch....lol

tim worner 07-01-2011 06:34 PM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Go to M.I.R. next weekend for the Sportsman Spectacular. No AHFS there to worry about.

Bryan Worner 07-02-2011 08:27 AM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Wade, I agree with most of your letter. However, we do need the AHFS! Maybe a few additions/corrections are needed to refine it, but it is needed!

As for the Sportsnational races, the only trigger is the 1.25 over permanent hit (old 1.40 under). The AHFS rules for Sportsnationals are the same as National Opens. No 1 second under runs count towards AHFS. Only runs of 1.25 under, which are instant adjustments, count. I feel that if a combo can go 1.25 under the new indexes, it needs a horsepower adjustment!

Michael Beard 07-02-2011 09:08 AM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
That's only -1.55 under the "old" indexes... why do you hate people who like to work on their cars? ;) :p :rolleyes:

Jeff Lee 07-02-2011 09:28 AM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wade_Owens (Post 266468)
Dear NHRA and Tech Dept,

I’m writing you this letter in hopes of getting you to reconsider some of the policies concerning AHFS and the 1.00 under trigger at all races.

I have always loved Stock and Super Stock racing. I would go every week to our local track, hoping that SS/K car would be there or some other class guy who had to test before a “big race”. Then, when I raced my own car in SS during the mid 1990’s, it was a dream come true. I still believe these are the coolest race cars ever. But, I feel NHRA has lost touch with what some of its racers wants.

As you are well aware, the AHFS was modified over the winter, due largely in part to the Drag Packs and Cobra Jets. I feel like when Indy qualifying was over, it left a big black mark on the low horsepower factors, necessitating the change. But, the system was and is flawed because it still can be manipulated. Take a look at how many guys have slowed their car down because of this. Many are now in protect mode, to save their factor. Most believe a heads up may come some day, and want to be ready for the challenge. In classes where performance is supposed to shine, it has been dulled significantly by the trigger and AHFS. To me, it IS still a performance based eliminator, otherwise, why do we qualify? Why not just go to an all run and random pairings with no heads ups? You know as well as I do this
would be the end of Class racing.

NHRA told us that you, along with the manufacturers had to restructure the payouts to save class racing. But, it really goes deeper than that. With the current damper on showing your cars potential, why would I call my converter guy and spend $1000 to gain a few more hundreths? Why call the cam guy and spend $900 on that updated cam and lifters? Why spend the $200 extra bucks on axles for the real light stuff? All of the above support class winners. As far as it goes, why work to do ANYTHING to improve the car. Don’t you think the class sponsors want us spending our money with them? Why would they want to consider continuing support if they thought we weren’t going to buy anything, possibly for years? Come on guys, this is what would really upset the manufacturers and maybe cause them to pull their sponsorship money. 75% off the time, I had to race someone in class. I do realize how much the companies were spending and often wondered how they could do it. Some of them raised prices to offset cost of class winners, some put a time limit on your product purchase, still others require the proof of purchase. All are fine with me, as long as they pay as promised and I always look at who supports us before I buy any item for the car. But what if we didn’t buy anything?

I’m not saying for a second that there shouldn’t be some attempt at parity. What I am saying is there should be a way to keep the performance aspect going, too. Someone mentioned about giving bonus points to the top 3 or 5 qualifiers of each event. This would definitely be interesting towards the end of the year. I can see guys taking hits for the much needed points. Also noted was giving bonus points for setting the record. Same deal, could make for some interesting scenarios come fall.

I would like to see you guys lift the trigger and eliminate AHFS data for the SportsNationals races. (Its only 3 races a year) Why? This is supposed to be for the backbone sportsman. With no Alcohol cars present, the show becomes the Stock and Super Stock class runoffs. Wouldn’t you want it to showcase how fast these cars can go and how hard some of the owners have worked to get them there? All of the “old timers” talk about beating so and so or how bad so and so beat me one time. NONE of them say “he lifted at 1000’”. You would still have all of the other races, Nationals, Divisionals and Opens to calculate your data. But, this would give the performance oriented guys a place to stretch their legs, show off or stroke their egos, or whatever, depending on who is telling the story.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I really do enjoy class racing and want to see it around for many years to come. Please look out for our best interest along with the manufacturers and yours.

See you at the races,
Wade Owens

Above is a copy of a letter I sent to NHRA Tech. I would like some feedback on what you guys think too. I would hope this will stay a positive discussion, but, I'm also a realist, also.

I would suggest taking this letter, modifying it to a degree, and forward to the companies which support our racing. You should be able to cut/paste and make appropriate recommendations based on their products and impact they have on class racing. Don't limit the letter to just their products.
Other racers could do the same. Try not to make it look like a form letter.

Ed Wright 07-02-2011 11:15 AM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Janes (Post 266785)
That would be to much power to one person.

Did you feel like Farmer did a good job?

I think Wesley would be great, but can't imagine him wanting the head aches.

Ed Wright 07-02-2011 11:17 AM

Re: NHRA letter on AHFS....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Beard (Post 267023)
That's only -1.55 under the "old" indexes... why do you hate people who like to work on their cars? ;) :p :rolleyes:

That was a joke, right? lol


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