Validity
 

Dempsey protest's Paul Boster and made him pull a rod and piston, right before first round, so Paul , after passing, loaded up and won't get to race.

woodro josey


Thanks guys. This is the the post that got it all started. Check the validity of it.
(after passing) ???

"Seems like they made an earlier mistake weighing the assembly and Paul was deemed Illegal, so he was DQ'd. Sorry the Information was passed on to me to quick it seems like and i guess i posted it to soon.
So Paul is not on the Ladder, and Dempsey gets the trophy!"

woodro josey
I miss Buster Couch and Lex Dudas.

I thought it would be fair to say that WJ did correct the information.

Thanks Robert, i thought everyone understood that, but i guess not!

woodro josey
I miss Buster Couch and Lex Dudas.

Posted on: May 5, 2007 - 3:34pm
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Seems like they made an earlier mistake weighing the assembly and Paul was deemed Illegal, so he was DQ'd. Sorry the Information was passed on to me to quick it seems like and i guess i posted it to soon.
So Paul is not on the Ladder, and Dempsey gets the trophy!

woodro josey
I miss Buster Couch and Lex Dudas.

How do you make a mistake using a scale ???
This doesn't say much for the current Tech Crew........

John, i don't know i wasn't there, but i heard ( there again, hearssay) they weighed it first with Rod Brg and they corrected themself later, removing the brg makes a big difference!

woodro josey
I miss Buster Couch and Lex Dudas.

Should it not be weighed WITH the bearing?


Jim Wahl
6 Time National record Holder
2239 BF/S
I miss Buster Couch also! 'cause Div.2 will always be "Buster's Rebels"

It DOES say assembly weight. I would think the bearing was part of the assembly

Chad Rhodes
STK 2113
www.rhodesmotorsports.net

assembly weight......piston + pin + rod + rings = assembly weight........edit, oh yes, includes locks & rod bolts

He who dies last, must pay the bills....
Is that a 'Hemi'?

From the NHRA web site.

"Assembly consists of rod, piston, pin, complete ring package, & locks if used."

Doesn't say anything about bearings.

Somebody screwed up! The bearing is a part of the assembly.

Jim Wahl
6 Time National record Holder
2239 BF/S
I miss Buster Couch also! 'cause Div.2 will always be "Buster's Rebels"

This is also from the NHRA site.

NHRA updates stock replacement piston list and policy
11/29/2006

NHRA has announced an amendment to Section 5A of the 2007 NHRA Rulebook entitled ?Stock Cars.? The amendment relates to the newly released Stock Replacement Piston Acceptance List and reflects a change in enforcement procedure. Along with piston specifications and weight, each engine application on the list will also have a Minimum Assembly Weight that will be used for enforcement. The Minimum Assembly weight is the total of the piston, pin, rings and connecting rod.

Effective Jan. 1, 2007, a competitor's rod and piston assembly will be weighed (without bearings) and checked against the posted Minimum Assembly Weight from the Replacement Piston Acceptance List. The weight of each component will no longer be a factor, as long as the assembly meets the Minimum Assembly Weight as posted on the then-current Stock Replacement Piston Acceptance List. However, the list will also include a connecting rod weight, piston pin weight and piston ring(s) weight showing how NHRA calculates the Minimum Assembly Weight. Competitors need not match each individual component weight provided the Minimum Assembly Weight is met and provided all other applicable rules are met. All other specifications listed, such as compression distance, distance from top ring to flat of piston, etc., will still be enforced.

All values listed as ?minimum? or ?maximum? reflect the absolute minimum or maximum NHRA accepted limits. There is no tolerance on any minimum or maximum value or dimension. As with any other minimum or maximum dimension in the NHRA Rulebook, latitude or tolerance must be provided by the builder to ensure legality in the field. Pistons must still be accepted at NHRA Headquarters in Glendora, Calif. , must still have the correct number and ID, and overall configuration must remain unmodified from the accepted sample. Pistons may be lightened to achieve minimum assembly weight, but ?normal? balance procedures must be used. Therefore, techniques such as cutting the piston skirt, cutting valve reliefs, or otherwise changing the configuration of the piston from its ?as accepted? state, are prohibited. (Milling the underside of the piston head is permitted.) Gas porting of any description is prohibited. Dome height and/or dish depth dimensions are still available in the Engine Blueprint Specifications.

Any questions or comments should be directed to the NHRA Tech Department in Glendora.


I would of been just as happy if they had allowed the light stuff to slide, but this is the published rule.

Daren

well there it is, its without bearings. Now I still say 12 grams is a mistake, and unintentional, but light is light. However being torn down 4 hours before first round is wrong

Chad Rhodes
STK 2113
www.rhodesmotorsports.net

I guess the end justifies the means. The guy was illegal.

It is still a petty thing to do - four hours before eliminations. What would all these players look like if he had been legal? I hear the tech guys who had to perform the tear down were not happy about it either. No winners in this one.

>> The bearing is a part of the assembly.

While I'm no mechanic, I would think that if you have to take it apart, it DISassembled. If you need the bearing to put it together, than it would logically be part of the "assembly". But, they did define it by specific components, so...


Michael Beard
<u>Staging Light Graphic Design & Printing</u>
Duck Tape/Loctite Racing
H - I - J/CM '80 Volare 360 Magnum

The debate and disussion around what should or should not be included in the "rotating assembly" is truely not the issue in this situation.

The point is - FOLLOW THE RULE BOOK!!!!!

Again, it's writen and published for a reason. When items need to be clarified, it's done so in writing for a reason.


The teardown should have never happened to begin with.


Randy Running

this is absolutlely none of my business, but I'm just curious should such a situation arise again in the future.

The rulebook states "contestant protests must be filled with the proper officials the day prior to eliminations of that category or as outlined in writing before a protest will be accepted."

I don't read anything about the contestant being given a reasonable and fair amount of time to perform the tear down...I guess one would simply assume that to be the case. Like someone said earlier, we all work at a different pace. Not everyone is the Country Dog and can have the rod and piston out in 50 minutes...LOL.

To me, reasonable is being served with papers on one day and having to race the next. At the very least, being served first thing in the morning and racing late that afternoon. If, in fact, this person only had four hours start to finish, then that - in my humble opinion - wasn't very fair. And frankly, I don't believe NHRA would do that to someone.

Not to involve you Travis, and I'm not asking for any commentary, but could you - without compromising your position - give us some sort of time line on how this unfolded?

I'd just like to know if some form of precedant has been set...

After reading these posts I have been wondering, where was, where is our Director of Sportsman's Racing, Mr Len Imbrogno? Was he on site? Who gave the final OK, Gracia? No intervention from our Sportsman's liason? Overruled?

FWIW, the first thing I do after receiving my yearly Rulebook, is to see if any pictures inside of Sportsman's cars, then throw it away. What a waste of paper and mailing costs!

I've often wondered if a car was built to EXACT Rulebook terminology....oh never mind

Randall Klein

lol....Randall, Grumpy Jenkins said many years ago, "If you build your car and follow the rulebook to a 'T', you got a guaranteed loser".

-------------------------------------
Mike Carr
Buff Daddy Motorsports
Enon Valley PA
IHRA Stock 18 HF/SA
IHRA 1/8 mile and 1/4 mile HF/SA Nat'l Record Holder
NHRA Stock 1302 DF/S
Street ET/Street Automatic/Modified/No-Box/Pro HX18
President, Tri-State Stock/Super Stock Association
Comp Forum Webmaster
http://members3.boardhost.com/CompForum/
dragrace@ccia.com

In this instance, there was one round of qualifying, then eliminations began later the same day. Under these circumstances, there would not be a way to file a protest a day prior to eliminations.

You could either rule there be no protests of any kind when the schedule gets shuffled like it did, or you allow for protests on the same day.

if they followed thier rulebook randall you would be running a six speed.

this race's timeframe was skewed by weather...
this protest should not have been accepted by nhra in MY OPINION !!!!

therefore dempsey should have had to wait to have the cheater tossed at another race...

captain jack...at least they enforced the rules after ignoring the rules ?

I know I shouldn't get involved .......... but Danny, Jim S. and Jin C. have been in discussion with me about this very thing (time line for protests) not once but twice already this year! Both times there were weather problems and both times the protest HAD to be done the day before elims....... soooo whats up ???? Skelly? Danny? Len? Graham? Tom? Wally? You know what NHRA, it must be me and my old reading glasses because I keep seeing things in the rule book that ain't so. Keith Lynch

P.S. Jim S. remember a few months ago I told you there is still plenty of light assemblies running out there. Nhra is going to have to step up and enforce it or go to the OTHER rule.

Bob

Everybody knows about the scheduling problems. The part that stinks is that someone would want to have a racer torn down under those circumstances. And that NHRA would go along with it. NHRA could, just as eaisly said no because of the weather delayed schedule. But they did catch a guy who was 12 grams light.

Keith,

I had a few communications about this light weight stuff with Skelly too . It doesn't look like NHRA wants to spend the dough to enforce the rule in an equitable fashion.

Jack,

Light weight bottom ends. I know you would never have anything to do with running one. Or would you?

Even though the schedule had been cahnged the protest must still have been turned in on saturday. No matter if it ranning or not, you can tear down, then give them a run sunday morning and its all good. If hes legal he gets plenty of time and still gets the run to make up for what ever he missed. The only problem with this scenerio is if the protest hadnt been turned in on time. Which would make it wrong according to the rule book that also has the assembly weights listed....what a circle!!!

Just to add some bar b que sauce to this grilling. Why protest a guy when they were involved in a shoe polish race for the finals anyway. OR were they in the same class and have to run heads up?

Peace, Rev.

Bruce,

Without commenting on whether or not the protest being discussed was in the spirit of sportsmanship, I think there needs to be a way to file a protest, even when the schedule is shuffled. Such a situation may well be covered in the policies and procedures manual (or what ever it's called). ...or if it wasn't, I'd bet it is now.

Just going by the time stamps on the DRC results posts, it looks like there was about 8 hours between the time Stock Qualifying ended and Stock Eliminations began. Knowing there would be ample time could have been a factor in the decisions made.

Is there a "DRC timestamp" on what time the protest was filed ????
Don't think so.......

It really is sad to read some of the post here. There are plenty of opinions with virtually no information about the circumstances. I spent the better part of the day trying to help with this mess and the result of it unfortunately will hurt all of us. It is not my place to give any details, and I am not sure that it is necessary to do so in any case. I have refrained from dignifying so many of the unfounded statements, and I will depart by saying only that many of you know that it could happen tou you!

John,

To answer your rhetorical question, no. The final qualifying list, showing the DQ, was posted 5 hours after the first qualifying list.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm just thinking out loud (so to speak) as to why the protest was allowed.

Hope you to see you in Rusk next weekend. Lemme know if you need a place to stay.

keith lynch... when you get a chance call me please 502-558-3450

bruce...nope im plenty heavy, especially my bottom end (big ***) LOL

anyone have any decent suggestions for weather screwed races ??

jack

Looks like that says it all.

I miss step.

While I was there at Gateway on the day in question, I was unaware of any of this going on.

Several of you elude to the fact you might have some details that would answer a lot of the questions, shame on you. Don't even waste our time here. Lets get it all out. Facts especially, and come up with a suggestion to NHRA. Then, as said previously, they need to have another course of action in the event that the race schedule has to change.

NHRA is making those changes for the pro's and the tv scheduling, well this is a by-product that THEY must deal with.

Cyclone FE

Jack,

Good for you! I heard you gained some much-needed weight over the winter!

Bruce Witherspoon,

Please give us some information about the time line. I don't think anybody has come up with accurate numbers yet.

We finished up running our 1 round of qualifying and class around 10:30. The protest came up around 11:00. We were scheduled to run 1st round at 3:30. We didn't run 1st round until 5:30 or so, but this still would not have given Paul time to get his engine back together had he been legal.
The protest should not have been allowed to happen in the 1st place. That was not enough time to get reassembled.

Good luck to all you points leaders later in the season when your opponent wants to keep you out of competition for the race. Just protest---on the day of eliminations and your competitor won't be able to get back together in time to race.

And this is supposed to be FUN!!!

Patsy

Larry

If the one round of qualifying wasn't also class eliminations, class contingency money wouldn't be a consideration, and it'd be easier to say no protests. I'm just asking here -- would you all be in favor of no protests, knowing that everyone knows the night before you make a qualifying pass that it is also a class eliminations winner or loser pass? If someone running in your class runs best-of-class, a number better than they ever have before, would you point to the rulebook and say I'm not going to think about protesting because the rulebook says I can't because of the one-day prior stipulation? Again, I'm just asking. A class win can be much more than just a small Wally. Should there be a provision in the rulebook to cover such a situation, or should it be, no same-day protests, no matter what?

The time line Larry posted is accurate. The only thing I can add is after the engine was pulled and disassembled, we weighed the piston at about 1:45. Had it have been correct we would have handed it back and the thrash would have began to make 1st round. With the enthusiasm of the group working on the car I feel that although it may have been tight timewise, they would have made it to the lanes on time.

For those questioning the accuracy of the scales used to weigh the piston rod assembly, anyone who has a gram scale also has a set of gram weights that assures their scale is correct. NHRA is no exception and the scale is always checked at each use.

Here is a tip for anyone racing the LT1 or LS1. The reason some can remove a piston rod so quickly is the engine does not have to be removed from the car. Those individuals have fabricated a tool similar to the one used to support the engine when removing the transmission from a FWD car. It is a bar that goes from shock tower to shock tower and lifts the engine high enough to remove the oilpan.

I was not involved in the decision to accept or decline the protest. I will say that it was a unique situation given the timeline the weather had thrown the event schedule into. One run Saturday morning became qualifying and more importantly class runoff. I will stand behind my boss's decision to accept the protest. If I had been asked my opinion at the time I would have voted to accept the protest as I feel there was sufficient time to teardown and reassemble the engine. All this being said I will post no more on the subject.


(Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions. I may be repremanded for making this post but I feel some things needed to be stated.)

Travis, with all due respect, and thank you for posting your opinion, but the cost of building an LS1 is outragous. No way would I have rushed putting this motor back together in that short period of time and risk overlooking something to make first round.

The rule book states very clearly the procedure for protests. Weather, track or any other circumstance is not defined. The rule book is black and white and if you don't abide by it, then what good is it? The correct thing to do was to allow the racer to race, then when the racer got beat, that would have been the time to take him apart. Only if the racer had a heads up would anyone have anything to say about being 8 grams light, but the fact of the matter is that no way this would enhance performance.

If the protest procedure was allowed to be altered then the assembly weight of the rod and piston should have been altered too .... rules are rules .....

so from what i read 4 1/2 hrs is enough time to pull a rod and piston and put back together as this was the timeline given to race time!

there you go guys if any racers has a problem with an individual or as larry or patsy stated to try to take out a points leader, just pool the money between 10 or 20 of your buddys and take someone down ( JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN) ! give them 4 1/2 hrs to do it and let them go to town.

as much as i respect you travis i think you ars wrong on this one!

just my 2 cents worth

It's been years since I've run S/SS but shouldn't you get a shakedown run after a teardown to make sure everything is OK.

Greg

It appears the new rule is that you get to do the shakedown at the next race since you did not have the time to finish the car.[:-veryangry-:]

Travis with all do respect to you and knowing you have to support your employer and boss even if they make a bad decision; the call was wrong and contrary to the rule book....or...is this rule in the Competition Procedures book you guys carry around that the racers do not have access to?