2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Does anyone have any insight as to if and or when NHRA will come out with a HP factor for the new Boss 302's ? I have seen a couple of these click off some high 11's right off the showroom floor with only slicks, or drag radials. I am thinking with a upgraded transmission, and soft-lok style clutch it wouldn't be long before this could be a 10:90 or better set-up.

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

it won't be. there is a cobra jet version already in the guides

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

X 2.

It won't be listed because it is a production car and generally available to the public. :rolleyes:

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

It won't be listed because it is a production car and generally available to the public.


NOW THAT'S FUNNY

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Sad, one of the most bitchin' cars ever built and anybody can buy one yet there is no way it will ever make it as a class car. I think it's safe to say, anybody here would be impressed if the Boss made it to the books. Seing one of these run mid 10's would be far more impressive than a crate motor paper tiger running low tens.

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Sorry for my ignorance, but what exactly is a Cobra Jet version of the Boss 302 ? Is this an identical engine to the Boss 302 that comes in Crate Motor fashion ???

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

You don't see regular production cars from Chevy, Dodge or Ford, because they would be terrible combinations. Old cars were rated differently (gross hp) from the factory with no engine accessories and free-flowing exhaust—new engines are rated with everything in place, including emission controls.

The real problem is that it is much harder to get 200-250 hp out of (non-supercharged) new cars once built for Stock. The new Boss 302 is rated at 444 hp and I have seen about 390-400 rwhp on a Dynojet chassis dyno. These cars will run 12.0s at 113 mph with sticky rear tires. We tested a 1970 454 LS-6 Chevelle (auto), factory rated at 450, and it was a good-running example, not a turd. It made 296 rwhp (I would guess it would have made 330-350 rwhp with a stick). I don't remember the torque numbers, but the BBC did make loads of torque.

Once modified for Stock Eliminator, you now have equal (or close to equal) drivetrain, suspension, the same advantages in regards to head mods (valve job), and camshaft, exhaust, etc. You can use all new parts for the 454, just like the 302 (or Chevy LS or Dodge equivalent). They are essentially rated the same, yet the Boss gives up 152 cubic inches!

I would guess that a properly built 454 LS-6 or ZL-1 427 Chevy (or 426 Hemi) makes upwards of 680-700 hp. Could a 302 equal that? Remember, this engine is already making 1.47 hp per cube! This is not a Ford thing, as I'm sure same holds true for the 426 hp Camaro and the 425 hp Dodge.

At 700 hp a 454 is making 1.54 hp per cube
At 700 hp a 302 is making 2.31 hp per cube

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Just a guess, but you don't see regular production cars from the Big Three because they don't submit them to NHRA for classification. It doesn't matter what's out there, if it's not in the guide, it's not legal for Stock Eliminator. That's why I still believe you can't build a Cobra Jet out of a regular production Mustang, because there are too many unique parts and modifications to make the conversion. The only 2012 Ford in the Guide is the Cobra Jet, a limited production vehicle

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Just my opinion but putting the 302 in the CJ body amounts to being a crate motor car, nhra has said that will not run crate motor classes than how do they explain this.

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Evan, i KINDA see your point. The new engines are way more efficient than that older stuff, for various reasons. That makes it harder to get the large gains out of them, in theory. But the LS-1 cars and even Womack's new C6 disprove your thought that they don't make good stockers. I think the bloated weight of the new cars is a much bigger reason that they don't make good stockers ( hence why the new vette is a good car, its not a pig). Of course none of them are good combos when you have factory ringers that are so far under rated its a crime.

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

There are Cobra Jets out there that started life as 6 cylinder mustangs.

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

If that is the case, I stand corrected! I had thought that the "Cobra Jet" was a unique model of the Mustang for 2012, and that just adding a Cobra Jet engine to a regular production Mustang wouldn't make that car a Cobra Jet.

Lew

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Evan is right. Take a 1970 ford/chev/dodge at it's factory rating (.65...maybe.75) and build it to make 1.5 hp per cube and you got a runner.
Take a 2011 ford/chev/dodge that is factory rated at 1.3 for example, what do you have to do make 2.5-2.8 to be equal?

Weight is also an issue, a lot more **** can come out of a new car compared to old ones so that helps and the chassis are more rigid than ever.

I don't neccessarily agree with .65 factor on new engines as they are inherantly more efficient, BUT, you can't start a car out at 1.3 or 1.5 hp per cube or no one will build it.

Just some numbers of old random combo's;

77 Cad 350 180hp .51 hp per cube
76 chev 305 190hp .62
74 chrysler 400 290 hp .725
70 dodge 318 185hp .58
73 ford 351 240hp .68
72 ford 302 162hp .53

and some random new combo's;
2012 ford 302 325hp 1.07
2010 ford 330 435hp 1.32
2011 dodge 512 450hp .87
2010 dodge 345 305hp .88
2010 chev 376 400hp 1.06

My conclusion would be that the newer engines compared to older engines are starting out higher before any adjustments than the older stuff did. Slight mind you (.8 vs .6) but higher none the less.

This just leaves less "room" for improving. I don't want to build a 2bbl 302 at 300hp to start out with, but at 162? lots of room there. Do I want to start out with a new engine at 1.3hp per cube...to START with? Uh..no. Put it at .8 or so and then hit it as it's improved....like every other engine in the guide has done

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

I appreciate everyones reply's. I never thought about the factory's HP rating, and what this thing would have to weigh when I first thought about this. And Evan's point's about efficiency are spot on. You can look at comparing the valvetrain of a 1968 302 set-up, and then look at the modular 7500 RPM plus set-up. Enough said. Now, just what to build with this 2009 BIW thats sitting in the garage. Thanks fella's

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Send it to MPR and tub it and 4 link it. Put a clutchless 5 speed in it with a 5.4 supercharged motor and go super stock racing. That was an easy question to answer.:D

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Chad,

The LS-1 engine also started somewhere around 325, not 426 like the current LS in the 2012 Camaro. That's a 100 hp difference!

Evan

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Lew,

It is not the responsibility of the manufacturer to send in the specs for all new cars. They have better things to do these days, like figuring out how to keep afloat. If a racer requests that a combination be submitted, then the manufacturer will do it. There are people at Ford, GM, and Dodge who handle this.

Yes, this requires some legwork on the part of the racer.

Evan

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Very well put, Evan!

Looking at the total output of each of the manufacturers, it seems strange that for 2012 there are only 3 platforms that have been approved for Stock Class (Cobra Jet, Drag Pak and Camaro SS). Putting all their eggs in one basket makes sense for the limited resources available, as you mentioned, but being from the old school "race on Sunday - sell on Monday" gang, I wonder how many folks are buying V6 GT's because of the success of the Cobra Jet.

More work for me in finding out how to classify the rest of the pack!

Lew

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Lew,

Thanks, the V-6 Mustang is the base model and is not a GT. The GT has a 5.0 and 412 hp. I would venture that Ford realizes the importance of its Cobra Jet program and the attention is brings to Ford. I believe it does create a buzz for Ford and gets people interested in Ford products. Much in the same way (albeit on a smaller scale) that John Ford does or the Fusion does in NASCAR. The CJs have received lots of ink in the enthusiast magazines, and that helps, drive people to buy cars and parts from Ford Racing, too.

"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday," is a phrase from the old days and it is not the old days any more. But the idea of being out there on track and involved in racing does spike the interest in racers and enthusiasts and that is what Ford and the other involved manufacturers are after.

Evan

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Evan this is incorrect as far as how Ford did it!!!

Old cars were rated differently (gross hp) from the factory with no engine accessories and free-flowing exhaust—new engines are rated with everything in place, including emission controls.

The way Ford did it was there were 3 Horsepower ratings.

A curve was no accessorys (fan, alt, water pump and open exhaust)
B curve was some accessorys (somewhere in between A curve and C curve)
C curve was with Fan, waterpump, alt and exhaust back pressure as installed in vehicle. This was the factory published rating.
all the above were corrected to SAE J 607 which was ans is 29.92 baro, 60 degrees carb air.

Mose Noland could give you more of the details if he remebers

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Fuuny you should say that. I spent approximately 30 minutes on the phone with Mike on Wednesday :D

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

That is true of pre 1972 cars Ralph, but after that they were "net" with everything installed as today. I used mostly mid 70's cars for that reason.

Regardless of how, or who done what, potential is what a class racers is after.
If eng A is rated at 99% of it's potential, who going to try it? Nobody.
If eng B is rated at 50% of it's potential, everybody will consider it....unless it's hidden, then only Billy Nees or Bob Shaw will find/try it! LOL!

So the only real question is then, what is the true potential of the new motors?
Then, can they be factored the way the old motors were?
In other words;
A is 400hp@ 80% = 500hp 100%
B is 400hp@40% = 1000hp 100%

If both engines start out at .58 factor, one will obviously cause a ruckus.(as we have seen with turbo or supercharged engines)
So, do you rate older or N/A engines at .58 to start and pressurised eng 1.1 to start?
What is a fair place to start pressure engines? Maybe starting them at 1.3hp/cu.in IS fair?

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Andy, like we talked about, SS/CS!!

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

This was still going on in the early 1980 as I was involved with a program that they called Stock Engines, Ford would buy cars from GM, Chrysler and other manufactures run Performance, Fuel Econmy, NVH and Emission Tests then pull engines out of vehicles run them on Dynod then send to Engine Build-Up dissamble and measure them. Then puld a report on each vehicle.

That is true of pre 1972 cars Ralph, but after that they were "net" with everything installed as today. I used mostly mid 70's cars for that reason.

Regardless of how, or who done what, potential is what a class racers is after.
If eng A is rated at 99% of it's potential, who going to try it? Nobody.
If eng B is rated at 50% of it's potential, everybody will consider it....unless it's hidden, then only Billy Nees or Bob Shaw will find/try it! LOL!

So the only real question is then, what is the true potential of the new motors?
Then, can they be factored the way the old motors were?
In other words;
A is 400hp@ 80% = 500hp 100%
B is 400hp@40% = 1000hp 100%

If both engines start out at .58 factor, one will obviously cause a ruckus.(as we have seen with turbo or supercharged engines)
So, do you rate older or N/A engines at .58 to start and pressurised eng 1.1 to start?
What is a fair place to start pressure engines? Maybe starting them at 1.3hp/cu.in IS fair?[/QUOTE]

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

The new Boss 302 is about the same as the Cobra Jet 302 except the Cobra Jet has more compression. The Boss is rated at 444 hp from the factory and the Cobra Jet is 325. I just watched a test on Motorweek of the Boss 302 and it went !2.4 seconds in the quarter at 124 with street tires and full exhaust. Evan you can forget the weak BS all these cars are bogus and way under rated.

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

IF the Cobra Jet 302 is underrated like you say then why didn't it outrun your boys underrated D/SA camaro in the Class final at Columbus last weekend? Could it be that your boys D/sa combination is in fact softer yet?

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

It's probably because the motor in the mustang has zero drag racing development done to it and ours has over 20 years worth. I guess the reason there is only one other car in the country with our combo is that it's so under rated. We'll be hard pressed to out run it once it's got the right converter and cam and all the other things you have to have to run fast.

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Probably because I was .08 faster in the first 60 feet, and also it has had virtually nothing done to the motor. Oh yeah, and he was going over 1.5 mph faster than me at the 1/8th even with very little work done to it. Go ahead and build a car like mine if you think it's so soft.

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Don't want to get into any discussions of who works harder,because your cars obviously run very well,but I am just curious Greg and Andrew.....did I read the weight sticker right on Andrew's car?

It is rated from the factory at 360 and NHRA rates it at 325?

How did you get NHRA to take 35 horsepower off of the factory rating or was it always like that?

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

It has been 325 for quite some time.

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Better yet if you think the Mustang is so soft why not build one of them? Did you know that most of the same people that put the D/SA mustang together also built Chartlie Downings #1 qualifer? If you really beleive nothing was done to the motor then build one and find out.

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

I just built my car a couple years ago. I'm not going to turn around and build a new one just because it has a bogus factor. Charlie's motor has had some work done to it, but he also shifts the thing at 7000 rpm when it makes max power at over 8000. He will admit it, and you can see in the in car video I posted from his 1.31 under run this past weekend.

And yes, my car has been rated at 325 for a long time

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Greg don’t talk if you don’t know what you are talking about.
How do you know what has been done to these new motors. If you and Andrew believe everything I say about these motors you are both fools.
Jimmy’s combo and mine have good race pistons and rings just like your combo. Good stocker cams from comp cams, countless hours on a dyno with The BEST tuner in the county, Good race springs, professional race prepped transmissions and some of the best race parts money can buy.
Where do you get you info that these motors have ZERO drag racing development done. Truth be told this combo has more race development in it then your car will ever have.

Andrew your combo is soft.

325hp vs 325hp
350ci vs 302ci
acid ported head vs NON cic ported heads
acid ported intake vs stock plastic intake

But so is the 302 CJ

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Greg,

We all know they are underrated, so is a 350 at 325 hp. My point was to show that it is a shame that there are no regular production cars in the mix and this is totally due to the fact that new cars make far more power with smaller displacement. There are, and always will be underrated and overrated combos. I'm not saying it is right, but is the reality. Even without the CJ's and DP's how can you tell me NHRA can keep the playing field fair for the thousands of possible combinations? It is impossible. Someone will always be bitching and complaining that their combo is weak and another is soft.

You are also misinformed about the Boss. The Boss intake on the production car far exceeds the performance of the stock 5.0 GT intake (which is the one used on the 5.0 CJ) and there is no way on this Earth that a stock or mildly modified 2012 Boss 302 went 124 mph. You better watch that TV show again. During our magazine test we ran 12.07/114 in the heat of the summer with full-on powershifts and good tires. We all know what good air vs bad air is worth, so you can figure out what it may run in better conditions.

You can go to musclemustangfastfords.com and go to the video section and look for 2012 Boss 302 track test to watch for yourself.

Evan

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Charley we all know there is a ton left in the 302 combination and yours. Jimmy even said so in the staging lanes when we were getting ready to run. That being said it's not quite as bogus as the 352 which is not even based on a production motor. As far as Andrew's motor being soft I guess that's why there are so many of them out there. These cars need to be in there own classes. I like the new cars and i think you were very deserving of best appearing at Columbus, but there were no older cars in Columbus capable of going 1.31 under.

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Not taking any side here, but a friend of mine has a 2011 Mustang 5.0 rated at the 412 hp figure from Ford and is not as good a combo as the NHRA factored 2012 325 hp 5.0. He has a set of D.O.T. drag radials on the car, 6 speed manual factory gears, leaves at idle and does not hammer the gears changes and runs 11.90's 12.00's all nite long and weighs 3670 across the scales. Now it doesn't take much of an imagination to see that the car could run some 10.50's with just a few add ons. I don't care what the Magazine tests showed, a 2012 325 hp rated 5.0 at 3220 lbs is a great combo, even without all the tweaks most Stock racers have done on their older combos.

Just my opinion .

RJ

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

RJ, I don't have a dog in this fight but I find it hard to believe a '11 GT is going 11.90's by just adding drag radials and granny shifing it. I would bet it at least has a tune and a cold air intake. I'm not saying a GT won't do it but it takes a bit more than drag radials to get there.

I have one and have been around these cars a good bit lately. They make great power but 11.90s is a bit of a stretch stock...

I still like my FE too though.....:D

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

A local kid got his into the 11.90s recently. Drag radials and an air box. He asked to use my lift to put exaust on it. No tuning either. They are fast.

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

He should go here and post. He would be king of the hill....

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...ack-times.html

Re: 2012 Boss 302 in NHRA Stock Eliminator
 

Jody

Yeah, I had a car like that once.....showroom stock 390 Mustang, 3.25 R/E with equa-loc, It was a dog, ran some 15.50 at Carlsbad Raceway in California in late 1966. I realize not all the 5.0's cars have the same performance, just like my 15.50 390 Mustang. All I am saying is what he told me, he could have had a air box (what the hell is that?), I looked under his hood and it all looked original to me.

What I am saying is this, the 5.0 is a 10.50 and better car running D/S or D/SA at 3220 lbs with about 10 or 12 items changed, gears, headers, camshafts, springs, suspension mods for Stock Elim, transmission and convertor/clutch and take out 400 to 500 lbs . You don't need to go any deeper into the engine than the cams and springs, etc. and you could have a car that will out run 98% of the Stock D/S and D/SA cars out there. They have a cast type piston in the 2011 factory version and 11-1 compression, smaller camshaft and Ford rates that motor at 412, while the NHRA version rated at 325 hp has 12.5-1 compression and a bit more lift and any valve spring. In other words, they will make an honest 550 hp with just simple add ons and that adds up to 10.50's or better running D at 3220.

I am a Ford person, but these New cars that are so underrated is pure BS, and I am talking about all makes and models. This is the problem with Stock as the majority see it, and if it contiunes it will spell the end for a lot of competitors. You would think that NHRA realizes it and does not see it as a problem.

RJ