I've been thinkin'.....delayed a bit.
 

This delay box in S/S deal, well, when the post first came up I wondered on here that NHRA doesn't bring this stuff up unless they're seeing it too much. So....I'm a wonderin', if'n EVERYONE is allowed a box, will we see a dramatic change in the winners circle attendees?

I'm playing the devils advocate here.....if we all have delay boxes...

You can't let your emotions control your feelings on the subject.

I did at first. "Ain't the good old days damnit." Well, it AIN'T the good old days. It's "I wanna win on Sunday days."

After talking with a few racers, and thinking about it more, what're you gonna do if your competitor is using stuff that you aren't? Lose.

Folks, I don't see no way going back. You can whine. But I don't see it changing. Too much sophistication.

I'm changing my vote. JIM SKELLY - vote me as a YES to delay boxes.

b.





I miss my tranny brake....

At the SportsNats this past weekend I got it from a rather high source that the current vote was approximatly 80% against and 20% for the box. Long and short of it....ain't gunna happen!

Jim Wahl
6 Time National record Holder
2239 BF/S
I miss Buster Couch also! 'cause Div.2 will always be "Buster's Rebels"

It could have been brought up because Tech is tired of hunting for the hidden delay devices. When you have limited manpower wouldn't it be better spending their time looking at more technical issues? That would be my guess as to what promped Jim Skelly to ask for input.
My .02 is: even the spec button won't help. The request was worded wrong. The way I read it if you voted against the box you were for the spec button. did you guys catch that... ??

Adger Smith

I didn't read it that way. I can't see NHRA putting their butt on the line issuing spec buttons. They woudln't want the liability.

I miss my tranny brake....

Adger:

I talked to Len at Belle Rose. They want what we want.
The cat was out of the bag and they need a little help
putting it back.
If we vote for no delay boxes we will have no delay boxes.
If we vote for no adjustable buttons we will have that also.
What we have to make sure of is the solution is a good
solution not a bandaid.
The only button that needs to be allowed (personally I
think stock should be all foot brake with no 2-step for leaving
except sticks)
is an instant on/off button. No possibility of adjustment.

SEB

Edit:

The new hydraulic buttons that are now allowed in Stock are nothing more than delay devices. The NHRA high tech guy left the building some time ago and now they want to give up looking. Each year there is some new gizmo to deal with. And I'm not sure how these new gizmos keep finding their way into Super Stock and Stock. But it must stop!

what about stick shift cars. i say no .. why dont we all go bracket racing then the playing field will be level.. thats what your saying right..level the field..

Yep. pretty much. With the exception of heads-up Class elims.

Look - dudes - (and dudettes)

if NHRA feels a few are using items that are not allowed, and they can't or won't police them properly, WHAT in the heck do you think is going to happen?

If it's true - the same people will be winning, and you won't. All I'm saying is when NHRA puts out something like this to me it's a wake up call.

Vote no and nothing changes. Level the playing field and you'll feel better. (I bet.) Whether you like the transition or not.

Again, if there's NO change then the people that posses the advantages won't be............


you.











I miss my tranny brake....

total thread failure right here....

-A/FIA 1981-

If you think someone has a box the rules are already in place to PROTEST THEM(Yeah I'm yelling).All you need is the balls to put up the money and have someone available who knows what he's doing to find it.I know in Div. 1 there are alot of guys who could sniff it out.But most of you are just a bunch of whinnrs and are content to bang on the keys instead.
When was the last time someone protested because of a box in S/SS??????????????????????????????

Ed F.
15 T/SA

Bowtie when was the last time you raced? Nothing personal just curious. I think NHRA should ban all automatics. Everyone should have a clutch and a manual trans, no air shifters or electronic shifters.

A bad day racing is better than a good day at work except for Div 7. Real men shift for them selves. 06/07 G/S record holder

ok, now that the last three guys have gone a wee bit emotional - here's my respone:

No one PROTESTS!! Should they protest? Yes. Will they? No. Why? who cares - the bottom line is if no one is protesting then we're in the same boat next year that we're in today.

I believe NHRA is offering up a chance for parity - ASAP.

Rod........unless you've forgotten who I am, tsk, tsk. Stay on topic a bit ok?





I miss my '58 New Yorker and its 392 Hemi.......

I do know who you are and I have not seen you at the races since your unfortunate accident.

A bad day racing is better than a good day at work except for Div 7. Real men shift for them selves. 06/07 G/S record holder

Rod:
Don't know when I'll be back out. Won't be soon enough.
I burn c12 in the living room instead of incense just to get my fix.









I miss my '58 New Yorker and its 392 Hemi.......

Adger:

You up? Can you call me right now?
909-844-1081


I miss my '58 New Yorker and its 392 Hemi.......

SE,
I'm glad that you got the Low down on it. I was glad to read your post. I don't like the spec button or the 2 steps in stock or the new ax delay device. I can't say anything about the .500 button. It made me be able to adjust better. Makes up for my advancing age & limited eye sight. I guess the next thing I will have to buy is the adjstable option for my Pro flite.
Goes on & on doesn't it!!!

Adger Smith

The more crap they allow, the more crap can be added on, legal or illegal and hidden.



Locomotion Racing
http://www.geocities.com/locomotionracing

Protest? You won't find the good stuff unless you bring a cutting torch and a transmission teardown tech. Go to the RC (radio controled) races and look at the stuff that is available by remote. If you are going to vote yes for delay boxes then you better get them to change the wording to enclude kelvin temp light sensors also or you will still be behind the curve. Even with a delay box leaving on the first light or crossing over you still have to hit the tree at some point. A killer light and a dead on pass costs less than a set of the latest trick of the week heads in SS.

Its either all or none if anything is to change. Racers policing themselves is a good thought but it all boils down to ethics. The other factor is the penalty for violation.

I am somewhat encouraged by the post from SEB about his conversation with Len. I race a stick. I have raced an automatic in several classes over the years too. I was a SS racer back when the delay boxes were allowed. I didn't think much of it then. I just bought one and put it in the car. It was a huge BF electronics box with a 9 volt battery and coax cable everywhere. I think it got HBO too. Anyway, I left off of the top bulb and it was really shocking to me how easy it was to dial in. I ran it at the Div 5 race in Cedar Falls and went a few rounds before breaking a rocker arm and losing. Sold it not long after that with the rule change and was glad that someone wanted it . Anyway. it wasn't as much fun as actually staging and shooting for a light. I don't know, call me sentimental, but I have more fun feeling like I am actually driving. The more of a driving experience I have, the more fun I have. Maybe that is why I drive a stick now. I have more fun doing it.
I don't like rule changes that loosen things up more. So far, most of the rule changes in the last years have cost racers much more money .disc brakes, pistons, etc. Some of the folks post on here every time there is a rule change that this or that should be allowed. I think we need to be careful what we wish for. Remember, if we allow something, it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
As far as rule changes go, I think those folks that think that NHRA cannot enforce the rules, should ask first that they do. It is clear that when NHRA chooses to act, they can. (oildown rule for example) They just have to have the desire to do it.Imagine if NHRA policed entry fees like they look for delay devices. There would be an unattended basket at the gate with a note to leave your entry fee at the gate! They don't really have a good process to follow up on the rules that they have. This is a reflection of the decision making at the very top of the tech department, not the lower levels. If they are truly advocates for a level playing field, I would not support any action to turn this into another expensive form of superstreet, but to enforce what we have and perhaps clarify what the delay devices are, even if it outlaws a few existing buttons out there. It would not take a tremendous amount of manpower to spot check in the lanes or on the return road if they deputized some folks regionally. They can also make the penalty much more severe for the alleged kelvin scanners too. Imagine if you were caught with Nitrous or stealing horses, whatever. That would be a hangin offense. Well the delay device should be as well. As far as the high tech guy that left? I guess. That is a pure employment issue. NHRA may have to pay enough to attract and keep that kind of person. Maybe they can cut a Vice President or two and free up some cash.

Don't get me started on the stockers. I think no matter how it is done. The stockers should leave with some kind of FOOT action, end of story. I Barf every time I see those Whussy 3 inch buttons on dashboards and steering wheels.

>> When was the last time someone protested because of a box in S/SS??????????????????????????????

Ron Muncy, Stock Eliminator I believe in 2001. He was caught, and banned. Pretty simple.
Robert Staton, IHRA Modified eliminator, around the same time, caught and banned. (and that one wasn't even a delay box! It was a homemade thing designed to create a delay less than what the AX button does today! Pretty impressive that Mike Baker caught it...)



Michael Beard
<u>Staging Light Graphic Design & Printing</u>
Duck Tape/Loctite Racing
H - I - J/CM '80 Volare 360 Magnum

It's great that the stocker guys are letting their opinions be known, but lets not forget that NHRA has not asked for their vote. So all the S/S & Comp. racers had better vote so we can get this thing stopped. I personally think that stock should have been included. But I do like the fact that only active racers are allowed a vote.

tim w

I hope the NHRA SS and Comp. racers vote properly because it can eventually affect NHRA as well as IHRA Stockers. There are many examples of it throughout racing history - the "trickle down effect"!

Locomotion Racing
http://www.geocities.com/locomotionracing

If I had a vote(and I don't), I would vote against the delay box. Some friends and I are building a superstocker and it will have just a on/off button, no delay, just on or off.
It seems that this just get into the "if you can't beat them, join them" or "if you can't find it, stop looking".
I think in the future the rules going to change so much that we will not have a tech department so NHRA job will be a little easier and we will have to police ourselves. Also if that happens do you think entry fees will go down, I think not.
Thanks,
Armand Keller

Ed,

A couple of years ago some racers had a guy busted in Div 4 for using a delay box. It's not our job to police this sport. It is NHRA's job to keep the game clean. That's why we pay membership dues. NHRA is responsible for this mess. They should dump these damn hydraulic buttons right now!

I agree with the deal about the remote stuff. The tecnology has advanced way past hard wires. There are supposedly trick transmissions with no wires that have delay box type technology and contain their own power source. Technology has advanced to a point that all a clever person has to do is dream-it-up and head over to Radio Shack or similar business for the parts they need.

Any remedy that NHRA comes up with, that is if they are interested, will come through advancements in the tree and use of currently available software. Fight fire with fire. I like the idea of having us use the top bulb (pro tree) but it has issues as well. The top bulb deal would eliminate a lot of the problems, and when you think about it, it's not as radical an idea as hydraulic buttons in Stock.

Don't misunderstand me - I'd love it to be "no electronics" - "good old days," etc., but isn't it obvious, (and sad,) that for whatever reason it appears NHRA is having a hard time policing this stuff - to the point they're asking if you want to join the crowd.

"We need to police the racers." What does that mean?
Asking NHRA to inspect someones vehichle? Now you're back to not trusting them. "They look the other way for the big sponsored guy" or, they're stupid and can't find the piece."

You're certainly not going to strong arm someone into letting you look under their dash or wherever? There might be a couple of rednecks willing to turn our pits into a good ol boy friday night nascar fight fest, but lets be real. That ain't gonna happen in our society.

IF, that's what you mean by "police ourselves."

Maybe hire Mike Baker in NHRA? ok, just saying....

I miss my '58 New Yorker and its 392 Hemi.......

The story I was told goes something like this: Mr. Baker was in the tower & was watching the Modified cars run. He noticed the guy release the trans brake button before the bottom bulb was lit. He called to the end of the track & had the car held for inspection.
So does there need to be a spotter looking for early release?

Adger Smith

There is a simple fix to eliminate leaving off the top bulb with any type of delay device. It requires no NHRA personnel or any extra work by tech officials to enforce. Can anyone figure out what it is? It is so simple and I can't believe NHRA has not adopted it. All racers can use their existing buttons and no rule changes are required.

STAGGER THE TREE..............all delay devices now become ineffective. You only have to stagger the top two bulbs.

Now If some asshole comes here and says (well then all you have to do is leave off the second bulb) It will prove how stupid some racers are.


Ed Brice

When i see da secund yellow cum down,i go.My car be real slow.
I no lik yer idea.I guess i be an asshul.

Slow Joe, or should I call you Daryl, I wont give the rest of your name away. Not sure what your agenda is, but I'm sure there will be some folks out there that think like you. Your poor job pretending to butcher the english language may or may not cover your true feelings.

For anyone that has to leave on the second bulb, it still would be 5 tenths between the second a third bulb.

Okay Daryl, lets have one of your pathetic attempts at being funny answers.



Ed Brice

Ed,

The idea of staggering the bulbs has been around awhile and for some reason it has never gotten any traction with NHRA. Wonder why?

Stagger the tree. Never thought of that. So why doesn't NHRA do that. Thinking out loud and knowing that Compulink and other systems have hard wired "software," it might be complicated to make the switch......

On the surface it seems like a great idea.

I miss my '58 New Yorker and its 392 Hemi.......

Thinkin' about it some more.....the staggered tree is the better idea as opposed to a five tenths pro tree. You can still use a delay box on a pro tree.....

But, how much stagger?

It seems we're so used to the equal countdown that I think my brain would pop trying to follow an unequal sequence.....


I miss my '58 New Yorker and its 392 Hemi.......

Bruce, It was brought to NHRA's attention many years ago. I do not know why they did not adopt this simple way of defeating delay devices.

Bowtie, Its not rocket science, their system could easily be programmed to stagger the tree. All you need to do is vary the stagger from race to race. Anywhere between .020 to .060. Most racers will never know the difference.

Ed Brice

Sounds very simple. I wonder what the flipside of that debate is.

?





I miss my '58 New Yorker and its 392 Hemi.......

>> A couple of years ago some racers had a guy busted in Div 4 for using a delay box.

That was Ron Muncy.

>> I hope the NHRA SS and Comp. racers vote properly because it can eventually affect NHRA as well as IHRA Stockers.

Myron's dead-on...

>> The top bulb deal would eliminate a lot of the problems

In my opinion, allowing something on that kind of basis would be like allowing ported cylinder heads in Stock. Yeah, it'd "level the playing field", but all it would do it raise the cost for many people.

>> it appears NHRA is having a hard time policing this stuff

They are? Who's using a box? And it's their own fault they legalized the AX button.

>> Mr. Baker was in the tower & was watching the Modified cars run. [...]So does there need to be a spotter looking for early release?

I have frequently seen Baker on the starting line at National events, specifically watching over drivers' shoulders for just that type of thing. IHRA will also throw random inspections after a qualifying run from time to time... one time they checked everyone for loose ballast, one time they were checking tire width, and last year they checked all the Stockers for transbrakes.

>> STAGGER THE TREE..............all delay devices now become ineffective.

...and so do people who count the tree. With enough stagger in the tree to make any kind of a difference, even a bottom-bulber CAN see the stagger, and it WILL effect them, unless they're blocking the tree (which is similar "first flash" driving like using a box in the first place). I raced on a staggered tree before. NHRA Div. 1 used it the first year that they legalized delay boxes in Super Pro. They used it in all the classes, though. It made it look like the tree came down fast sometimes, or come down slow sometimes. It was wierd. I think Chip Johnson has run into it in more recent years.

>> Anywhere between .060 to .120. Most racers will never know the difference.

Holy cow! You'll pick it up if it's more than .02! The stagger is an available option in the Compulink. I think the spec back in the early '90s when we used it was a .001 to .050 variance. Some tracks used the max, some the min.

Stagger wouldn't do anything to guys who block the tree and use an adjustable button to leave off a flash.


Michael Beard
<u>Staging Light Graphic Design & Printing</u>
Duck Tape/Loctite Racing
H - I - J/CM '80 Volare 360 Magnum

I guess I don't get it but if you stagger the top bulb wouldn't you just change the box to leave off the bottom and block the first 2? Sounds like what's going on now. The only way to counter this is to flood the starting line with RF and UV in wide spectrums and see which cars leave on thier own, All you need is to catch a couple of people and it will decrease to a point.

I was wondering how long it would take.....YOUR F*** kidding right mike. Can't you make a post without writing a book.

Staggering the tree is the answer, you don't know what the F*** your talking about. Counting the bulbs down, get real man.

And Mark, I don't no how to answer you, if you can't figure it out, there is no hope that you will ever get it.

My god, are class racers this stupid. How can you all race for so many years and still not figure it out. You all bitch and cry that people are cheating to justify your lack of skill or the understanding of how to bracket race.

Ed Brice

Ed, I raced on a staggered top bulb for many years, and I don't see how it would affect a bottom bulb leaver. Am I missing something?

,

Well, I for one understand that nothing will affect a bottom bulb leaver.

But, if in fact there are more top bulb leavers with advantages it seems NHRA ought to use as many ideas to thwart their efforts.

With the idea being we'd see a change in who's a frequent wiener.....
winner.....

eh?


All I know if Glendora says, "You guys said levae it alone," and they do, not a thing has been accomplished.








I miss my '58 New Yorker and its 392 Hemi.......