They say you can't go back....but...??
 

With all the discussions over the past 10, 20, maybe more years about how Class Racing is but a shadow of what it was supposed to be (ESPECIALLY modern Stock Eliminator), and how you can't go back, it's not 1975 anymore, etc, but how would the purists and long-time racers (or any racers) feel about this scenario?

Re-alignment of NHRA and IHRA Class Racing

1) Re-name Super Stock "Modified". Because, let's face it, modern S/S is closer to Modified Eliminator than S/S.
Class realignment"
S/S classes = Production classes
SS/A-SS/AA = A/P and A/PA, A/P is 5.5 pound class
and so forth down to P/PA
SS/AH=A/HP; retain Hemi Shootouts
SS/AM = A/MP, and so forth
SS/AS = A/MS, and so forth
SS/AX = A/MX, and so forth
SS/TA = A/PT and so forth
GT classes remain the same; GT/AA = GT/AA, and Trucks also; GT/TA = GT/TA
-For IHRA, SS/Production renamed. IP/AA-1 and 2 down to IP/JA-1 and 2. Change Modified Compact to mirror NHRA Mod Stock rules as are now.
-Keep current rules, weight breaks, Indexes per 2012 rules

2) Re-name Stock "Super Stock". Because, let's face it, modern Stockers are closer to what S/S was but a short time ago
Start at 6 pound class for A/S-A/SA, renamed SS/A-SS/AA
1/2 pound classes, down to SS/W or whatever (current W/S)
FWD Classes, AA/FS = SS/AF, down to EF/S = SS/FF
-For IHRA:
Crate Motor class designations remain; A/CM = A/CM
Stock/GT designations renamed, SS/GTA down to SS/GTG
Pure Stock re-named SS/AP down to SS/IP
EFI and truck classes combined into traditional Stock classes and re-named; FT/SA = SS/MA; A/FIA = SS/EA, etc.
-All cars permitted 10.5" slicks
-All other rules, weight breaks and Indexes per 2012 rules

3)Create new Stock Eliminator, in the spirit of what Stock Eliminator SHOULD be.
-mirroring current IHRA Pure Stock rules, with the following exceptions
All 1950 and newer cars, trucks and sports car eligible
All cars MUTS have been factory assembled, showroom-available, and in the hands of the general public.
*If you could not buy it, as is, from a dealer, license, register, insure it, and drive it home, it is NOT LEGAL for Stock*
Minimum number of units, as is, produced to be elgible. Probably 200, maybe more. Possible exceptions granted to rarer, but street legal, cars (L-88 Corvette, ZL-1 Camaro, etc)
Camshaft must check on lift, duration and overlap per OEM
OEM valve spring pressure madatory
OEM transmission ONLY. No metric 200, Jerico, etc. If car ONLY came with a TH-350, Torqueflite 727, etc, it must keep that trans. NO corporate upgrade (i.e. no TH-400 if combination did not come equppied as such)
30"x9" slick, or 10.5 D.O.T tires only. Minimum tread depth required. Transmission loop required on all RWD cars/trucks with slicks.
Factory or OEM replacement radiator permitted.
No trunk-mounted batteries unless OEM equipped.
No open exhaust, unless with factory exhaust manifolds. Headers require approved mufflers.
Unleaded gasoline permitted.
All other current (2011) IHRA Pure Stock rules apply.

Classes start at 7.00-7.49 pounds, for A/S-A/SA, down to Z/S and Z/SA
FWD classes mirror weight breaks for current IHRA FWD, with possible class/weight break adjustments for a new AA or A, Down to HF/SA at 27.50 pounds per hp.
Naturally aspirated combinations only. No turbocharged or supercharged cars permitted.

Just something I cam up with a week or so ago. What ya' think?

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

I'd be game for that, my car with my Lunati cam might have to run Super Stock, but I still have my factory exhaust manifolds on it (and it's essentially all stock otherwise), so it would take very little for my car to qualify for your version of Stock. I just hope that the powers that be in Glendora, and Norwalk like this idea of yours too???

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

What would we do with the thousnds of dollars we have already spent,for those parts.? Jim Hanig

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

You wouldn't have to do a thing. Other than change the letters on your windows. Did you read what I wrote?

If you have, say, a current A/SA (8.00-8.49 pound Stock class) 427/425 '69 Camaro, you would be, under my proposed idea, a SS/EA (8 pound S/S class with the same rules as current 2011 A/SA engine/car rules.).

The only thing you would change is the letters on the windows and have the option of a 10.5" slick. Nothing else would change. 8 pound class, 11.00 Index.

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Sounds like a good start, Mike! I have been saying for a while that the current Stock Car Classification Guide should be either up-dated or thrown out! Start with the manufacturer's published horsepower and shipping weight and adjust from there, pretty much what they do now! A cam/valve spring change and a set of mufflers and I'm ready to go!

If I had one complaint, it would be to allow turbo's in the FWD classes, at factory HP, with maybe some ruling on using a factory non-adjustable waste-gate.

Looking forward to next year!

Lew

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Mike you have way to much time on your hands

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Mike - You're trying to re-invent the wheel ........nice try but you haven't a clue how bad your idea is .Remember - I have raced when Stock was Pure Stock - and you're right again as you can't go back ............

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

what jack said
and your pure stock is NOT pure stock

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

S/SS rule change requests must be submitted to the NHRA S/SS committee before July 1, 2012 in order to be considered for the 2013 season.

Travis Miller

(Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.)

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

What Jack said....

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

I love it, other than the muffler part. i say headers, but other than that i think its great. They are right we cant go back the people that suport the class any more have spent more money than any one should, pro teams of the 70, and early 80s, would love to have the rigs, and budget of most stockers this day of age. i would love to see it go back to basicley who could put the best tune up on there car. The cost, and e.t.s are a joke any more, we need some grass roots action back, but im afraid it will never happen. just my opinion.
Mike Dean
3870

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

"Classes start at 7.00-7.49 pounds, for A/S-A/SA, down to Z/S and Z/SA
FWD classes mirror weight breaks for current IHRA FWD, with possible class/weight break adjustments for a new AA or A, Down to HF/SA at 27.50 pounds per hp.
Naturally aspirated combinations only. No turbocharged or supercharged cars permitted."

That's one way to remove all Chrysler combos from FWD isn't it! Not that many people here care. Jim


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Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Jim, no supercharged or turbocharged cars allowed in IHRA Pure Stock which is the model for Mikes rules.

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Simple, just join these guys:

http://www.purestockdrags.com/index....d=48&Itemid=53

Or these guys:

http://www.fastraces.org/

Problem solved.

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Using my 'dream world' class racing rules, turbo'd cars could be permitted in new FWD Stock, maybe with rules regarding boost limits.

Maybe some of the opposition to my proposed rule changes (and it's really just a 'what-if' type deal) is that racers think their car would be obsoleted and require a ton of $$$ and changes. That is not the case. You would be able to run your current, 2011 car, as is, with no changes whatsoever. Same engine, chassis rules, same weight break, same horsepower, same minimum weight, same Index. The only thing that would change is the letters on your window.


2011 Stock to proposed new S/S chart
Weight break Current Class New Class
6.00 SS/AA
6.50 SS/BA
7.00 SS/CA
7.50 AA/SA SS/DA
8.00 A/SA SS/EA
8.50 B/SA SS/FA
9.00 C/SA SS/GA
9.50 D/SA SS/HA
10.00 E/SA SS/IA
10.50 F/SA SS/JA
11.00 G/SA SS/KA
11.50 H/SA SS/LA
12.00 I/SA SS/MA
12.50 J/SA SS/NA
13.00 K/SA SS/OA
13.50 L/SA SS/PA
14.00 M/SA SS/QA
14.50 N/SA SS/RA
15.00 O/SA SS/SA
16.00 P/SA SS/TA
17.00 Q/SA SS/UA
18.00 R/SA SS/VA
19.00 T/SA SS/WA
20.00 U/SA SS/XA
22.00 V/SA SS/YA
24.00 W/SA SS/ZA

For 2011 Stock racers, your current weight break and class are in the first two columns. Your new class is in the last column. Your horsepower, minimum weight, Index, etc all remain the same. A current E/SA '67 Camaro 396/325 would now be a SS/IA. Still 11.70 Index. Still 3,420 pounds. Same rules per 2011 going forward. Just the letter(s) on your window(s) changes. The exception is alowing a 10.5" slick in your new eliminator (re-named Super Stock). The S/S-to-Modified deal, same thing. Same rules, Index, weight, engine/chassis rules, everything is the same--just the Class on the window changes.

The main thought you be to bring an entry level, lower cost eliminator to Class Racing. Something that the younger generation could possibly afford more easily than current, 2011 Stock Eliminator. (And yes, it is a bit like going back to 1972 in a way. Which I have heard about, though it was seven years before I was born). While the last 10-15 years have seen quite a few of the newer generation of racers enter Class Racing, there is also a large number of vetern racers (I hate the term 'old timers', sounds disrespectful) who are at, or approaching the age where perhaps they may not be able to race for much longer, whether due to health, costs, travel, length of race weekends, etc. I have lost several racing friends in the past few years at age 55 and older, and would like to know that in the future, the car counts will still be strong with new(er) blood coming in.

Starting a new eliminator, mirroring Pure Stock rules, could help bring a wave of new blood into the sport. And without them having to spend a large amount of money as they would in current Stock Eliminator. Yes, I know, Class Racing isn't supposed to be cheap or easy. Just pointing out that, unless a younger person (age 16-25) have rich parents, there isn't going to be a large influx of new talent at the rate things are going. This *could*, perhaps, help with that.

Vic, you're right, today's 'Pure Stockers' aren't what many would call 'Pure'. About the only one I can think of off-hand (and I apologize if I am leaving anyone out) is Steve Klacik, who routinely drives his H/PS '88 Mustang to the IHRA, and my S/SS races in PA and Ohio, races, makes no changes, races it, and has won. He drives 200 miles one way to Hagerstown every year, runs 2-3 tenths under (low 14's), races, and drives home. In 2010, he won an IHRA Div'l race, qualified for the T.O.C., and finished fifth in the world. A type of car similar to this is perfect for the class I am proposing. Something affordable, with stricter rules, to allow the average Joe Classracerfan a chance to race.

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

What he said!! but I ain't holding my breath either. Merry Christmas All!!

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Mike
you want pure stock
go back to 73 NHRA rules

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Mike,

I have read your proposal three times, and no where do I see the elimination of shoe polish. So it wouldn't be anyway near going back. It would just be another bracket race with more rules to enforce. Whats the point? This so called performance racing we do needs to get back to performance not more bracket racing. Please understand I"m not bashing bracket racing, they are some great drivers that understand you don"t need a bunch of rules and regulations to have fun. When all the so called performance racers that don't want to spend any money or work on their stuff realize that, the real performance racers will be better off. Just my opinion, I could be wrong!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to ALL!

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Jim, I have had a lot of normally aspirated fwd Chrysler cars through my shop.
They do exist. :-)

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

OK, got confused. Happens more and more lately. Jim

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Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

The big problem is there is now another eliminator. NHRA is not going to have three eliminators for door cars. Second problem is there to much policing. The tear downs of the sixties and seventies are gone for good, they cost to much in time

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

I've gotta agree with Tony, I can even see another eliminator but you're never going to see anything that is going to require MORE tech. That's why Stock is on it's way to becoming a " looks stock, flat hood, 9" tire" eliminator.

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Thats why they make land fills.Throw the junk away.....LOL.

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Mikey, so you are really advocating the NHRA adopt another IHRA class..
Won't be the first time.
I agree on the need for an entry level class, but it's not just the cost of a Stocker that's the issue.
How about the $305 entries? Membership, permanent number fees...I don't even know what they are now,,....$10 a gallon racing fuel ? Diesel fuel or pump gas for towing ,etc, etc?
NO money for a class win! NO money till 3rd round.....
Nobody on the outside, in their right mind, would want to jump in to that.

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

If you wanna go back then you have to run off class records which means rich guys win, just like the "good old days"!

JimR

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ddR4ohPSI this is what i think , listen to this.

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

I can't think of any way NHRA could come up with any kind of "Entry Level" class in this day and age. They tried a few years ago to sell S/ST as "Entry Level" and it just wound up being 632s in old S/G and SS cars. Stockers can still be built reasonably but even with our best intentions (Dime Rocket threads) in hand I don't see any cars being built. I think NHRA has just thrown the whole "Entry Level" deal into the laps of the local tracks and are happy to collect their "Cut".

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Mike I think it's an awesome idea. The few young people who still enjoy muscle cars and actively attend national events would get their chance to shine on a small budget if there was a pure stock class. I think it would bring in new blood. Jack and Vic, please post valid reasons why you don't agree other than the usual "no".

Other than that I do see the need for the additional tech as a problem because of NHRA's deep pockets and short arms. From an investment point of view, the playing field would be leveled out a bit thus getting more entry level racers but, also, think of all the bracket racers who don't give class racing a thought because of its high cost, they may want to join in now. This results in more entries(more revenue), more attendance with those racers(more revenue), more memberships(more revenue), more competition numbers(more revenue).

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Jim, I raced then. It wasn't so much "rich guys" as it was guys with some ability doing their own work winning. We weren't running over with check book racers like we are now. Not nearly as many "rich guys" in the U.S. as there is now. Things were different, people were different.

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

It's hard to argue with that! Jim

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Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

I hate to say it Bobby but it's never gonna happen. The tighter you make the rules, the easier it is to cheat, the more Tech you need to police it, the more it costs the NHRA.
Something that might fly with NHRA and Racers on a tight budget would be some kind of a factored HP to wt. deal using SEALED, approved crate engines. The crate engines do exist, they would be easy to police, just look for the sheared bolts. NHRA could probably get some factory replacement parts money. Maybe 4-6 classes in Stock or SS on top of what we have.
And OBTW, it"s gonna take more than "a few young people" to fly.

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Bobby - You and I could debate this issue 'till the cows come home but because you haven't been "around the block" as many times as I have you just won't get it .Also , because you already have a pure stocker your point of view might be biased .That said are you ready to compete nationally ? Are you ready to pull a piston and rod if asked ? And you will be at some time ..........along with everything else the rules must be the same for traditional stockers and pure stockers alike .

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Billy,
I think NHRA had just what you are talking about in mind when they started running index classes at divisionals. But guess what? Little to no participation. I guess it takes less effort to scrible shoe polish on the window instead of making your car run the number!
How about stock and super stock start running a 32 or 64car qualified field off the index, dnq's can run the index classes. You might call it forced participation but it may create interest in those classes. Or you could have a consolation bracket race since thats what most want to do. But god forbid, don't call it a bracket race. Its a combo race!

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Don, I've always considered myself a Bracket Racer that went Class Racing. That being said, go to Pittsburgh and try to explain to some of the racers there how it makes sense to spent 3 or 4 or 6 days at a track for 1 race let alone that you spent $150 or $170 or $300 to win $1 or 2 thousand! The IHRA stuff is less expensive than the NHRA but you've got to win the race to break even let alone make anything. When you look at it from that point of view how can the N or I expect any participation?

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Maybe thats what you can afford, I cant . Why cant we stop the changes now , every year its somthing else, and we come up with new ways to fix it.After the fact. PS if you have a load of this stuff give me a call ill save you a trip to the land fill. Jim Hanig

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

I'm all for stoping the changes even though most of my stuff winds up going back to the landfill I found it in anyway!

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

all changes made by nhra are ask for by the racers
and safety
the roller rocker has been ask for by a lot of racers for along time

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

[QUOTE=SStock1373;300925]Mike I think it's an awesome idea. The few young people who still enjoy muscle cars and actively attend national events would get their chance to shine on a small budget if there was a pure stock class. I think it would bring in new blood. Jack and Vic, please post valid reasons why you don't agree other than the usual "no".

I am one of those young people who would love to have an entry level class that i can get in to. I am one of the few who go to the hot dog stand while the fuel cars run so i can be back in my seat to watch the sportsman racers. I have a car in the garage right now that i could use as a pure stock car and park my Duster in the shop and use it as a bracket race car. I really hope someone see this and decides to do something to bring more of us " young folks " into the sport and stop pushing us in to " Outlaw Class " type of racing ( 275 radial / 10.5 tire) As they see your number od racer getting smaller just remember Out of Sight Out of Mind.

Chris

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

Not for nothing Chris but if you were really serious about going "legal" racing you could build an "entry level" 318 or slant 6 for your Duster!

Re: They say you can't go back....but...??
 

That may well be true, but I think NHRA would do everybody a favor if they put such proposed changes to a vote by the racers that could be affected. NHRA has records that show who has a current NHRA Stock or S/S competition number or licence, they also have records that show which of those racers have actually competed in any NHRA National or LODRS events in recent times. Considering that to enter a National event, you have to enter online, usinng a Email adress, they have that info too. Sooo..., how hard would it be to inform these active racers about proposed changes to their Eliminator? It seems that NHRA often changes things based on "consultation with a number of Stock racers", well they have never asked me, or any of other racers that I know. I believe that when the big step of allowing ported heads in S/S many years ago, that was decided by a vote of racers. Personally, if this procedure had been in place the past 10 years ago, I would have voted against almost every "proposal", "enhanchment", "improvement", or change that has been brought in during that time. Maybe the majority would have voted differently than myself, but at least I would have been able to make my opinion known by such a ballot.