Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

I have been away from Stock Elim motors for a while and I wanted to ask a question. I was in a very reputable engine shop early in this week and I saw something that I wasn't aware of. They were machining a Stock Eliminator motor and was adding heavy metal to the crankshaft. They were adding heavy metal thru the crankshaft side of the counterweight. I had always operated under the conception that it had to be hidden. Comments please
charles

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

My guess is that the counterweights have been turned down and heavy metal had to be added to correct the balance. Dyno

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

The rulebook says something about normal balancing.
If the pistons /rods/ rings are lighter than OEM, then the OD of the counterweights is the best place to take off the counter weight.
The competent shops know how much to remove without having to put it back on, if you get my drift...so be forewarned..

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

An externally balanced motor like a 428 FE needs weight added to the rear crank counterweight to make it internally balanced. There are other examples as well. This is legal but you may have trouble with a light crank with added heavy metal being considered a "normal" balance job.

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

sent a 66 289 out for an overhaul and balance (nothing special, just a stone stock rebuild)
as we don't do that at the shop and it came back with a swiss cheesed flexplate and mallory metal in the crank...
what's a "normal" balance job?

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

In Stock Eliminator, it is legal to use heavy metal in the crankshaft in order to internally balance an externally balanced engine. Other than that, heavy metal is not legal, as it falls outside of the "normal balance job" rule.

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Tom,
The only way your 289 flexplate should have been drilled is if was previously a zero balance flexplate,like a 300 six.

You may have to fill in a previous hole in counterweight of crank but not with heavy metal.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Let me re-clarify this , This was not a external convert to an internal. They were using a lighter crankshaft like a 305 and making it fit a 350. They were drilling and pressing the heavy weight into the side of the counterweight. In the older days, I was always under the impression that we had to install the weight and then we could weld it in and totally cover it so it could not be visibly seen that we had added heavy metal. Was I wrong in remembering that.
charles

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

which is why customers shouldn't be allowed to roam around the shop...

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Jeff
Your comment is quite well received. Since the motor was for a very good friend of mine. I just thought he and I would like to know if the motor was going to be legal. apparently if you were doing the work for a customer, you would not want the customer to know if it was legal or not. It was just a question with no harm intent. I most certainly do not think you would be building me an engine that I could not see until NHRA got to look at.
charles

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

I'm talking about people going online with a concern about somebody else's issue. The issue is between the customer and the shop. Maybe the customer wants it that way and maybe the customer doesn't want the world to know about it?
Conversely, a guy getting work done to his engine may be getting some really trick (and legal) procedure done and the customer takes this trick to the internet "trying to be helpful to the community" or maybe "I just want to make sure this is legal so I'll post it for 20,000,000 viewers". I see it all the time. Problem is, the engine building (by real masters) industry is dyeing and now some keyboarder just wiped out 40 years of R&D in about 40 seconds. That's why there are some engine builders that make the customer sign agreements that none of the contents will be shared with others. May be difficult to enforce in court but it does set the tone.
Sorry, I'll get off that soap box now...

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Years ago I was told by a techman that if they see excessive amounts of heavy metal in a stocker crankshaft it waves a red flag and they start some serious checking of the entire rotating assembly.

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Balancing a 305 crank to 350 won't take heavy metal (mallory) you would just use plain steel to fill deeper holes back up.
If a 350 stocker has real heavy metal in it either counter weights have been cut down or it has way too heavy pistons and rods.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Jeff
I know where you are coming from and this was no overindulgence of a secret as I have balanced numerous engines in my career. Adding heavy metal is not anything new to any one, but in this case, I know the customer that the engine is being built for and he and I discussed the addition of heavy metal and he too was of the opinion that adding heavy metal has, in the past, been a no no. He was tearing down at Indy beside another gentleman that got the same treat of getting to disassemble his parts for NHRA to look at. And they questioned his having a heavy slug of obvious heavy metal in the crankshaft. As we were finishing up our commitment to NHRA, I did not hear the end result of their discussion. But I have always installed the heavy metal and welded over it not to show. And to make you aware, if I were a shop doing secretive work for any one, I would never stop a prospective customer from coming thru my shop, but I would cover up something that I did not want him to see. If I pay for work, I reserve the right to see what is going into the motor at the time of build as I can look at it any time after that anyway. I dont expect them to tell me their secrets but I want to know that I am getting the parts they charged me for. I dont know how many people that I have seen be shorted by the crook that charged $1000 for a 4340 crank and later to find out it had a Chinese cast crank. Out local mechanics do it every day
charles

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

[QUOTE= I dont know how many people that I have seen be shorted by the crook that charged $1000 for a 4340 crank and later to find out it had a Chinese cast crank. Out local mechanics do it every day
charles[/QUOTE]
Hmmmm, I hate it when that happens.

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

I once had a story about a "Mallory Metal" crank.
A friend of ours that did some of our machine work. Was pioneering 409 cranks in big block chevies. And he would cut the counterweights down, to get a real efficient scrapper system. He wanted to try it out on one of our hemi cranks. We had a crank break on us (didn't do any damage other than the crank and a thrust bearing) So we okayed the mod. We never thought NHRA would find the mod.
Well John Hoffman (RIP) had a deal with our friend to to work for each others personal stuff at no cost.
So after modifying the crank he sent it to John. John called our friend and told him he ran out of "mallory metal" finishing our crank. We got it back, not realizing what that meant. Noticed a lot of welding on the counterweights. Built a scrapper and put the motor in the car.
My friend calls us a few days later telling us the price of the materials for our crank. This was in 1978 now. Over $1000 his cost for the weight alone.
We ran that crank till the next time we pulled the motor. Then took it out, a little worried we might get caught. We put a plain Kellog crank in the motor. And it didn't slow up a bit.
Everytime we came up with a hairbrained scheme. We would mention the $1,000 crank.
And think real long and hard about how much it would help. We wound up with a few other brain storms, Like the first ever lightweight A 727 (worked great, worth a tenth in the short times) and the first ever trans brake for a Mopar torqueflite (didn't help at all)

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

409 brings back memories of one of the hardest balance jobs I ever did,was opposite way 454 crank in 409 took 16 inches of heavy metal had 1100 gram Jahns pistons with counterweights cut down same as sbc to fit 409 block and int. balance.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Based on this NHRA tech bulletin for what is legal on a SUPER Stock crank:

http://www.nhraracer.com/content/gen...9848&zoneid=85

and the STOCK rule that the crankshaft has to be "stock OEM" for the engine claimed, and "Crossbreeding parts prohibited.", then a 305 crank being massaged for a 350 application is blatantly illegal in stock. S/S, fine, but not in stock. Will he get caught? Almost certainly not. Are there a jillion other stocker engines out there with illegal cranks? Almost certainly. Does it make it right, absolutely not.

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

I have been reading this thread and you are dead on the dial with a ZERO!

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Question:
How is it going to be "determined", proof beyond any doubt, that you have a 305 crank in a 350 when the casting numbers are identical?
I know an identifiable difference, but I'm asking the question for legal tech purposes.

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Not being a tech man, I neither know or care about the procedure to determine if the crank is legal or not. The fact that someone would go the expense and effort needed to convert a 305 crank to a 350 application, when 350 cranks are a dime a dozen, leads one to believe that there is an advantage to doing so. A similar advantage could be had by using a lightweight aftermarket crank for the 350, a huge variety of which are also a dime a dozen. In either case, their use is ILLEGAL and that is THE POINT. The rules are there, they are clear enough and anyone who ignores them or thinks they are just "bending" them to gain an advantage is a CHEAT. PERIOD.

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Sorry Bill, but I think you are a little too anal about the rules. Yes, we can all read and like you can quote the rule book. Before bashing someone on being legal or illegal you need to know something about the components they are talking about. By your logic a rod that came in a 305 and was put in a 350 would be illegal when in fact they are the very same. The ONLY difference in a 350 and 305 crank is in the depth and location of the factory balancing holes. That is due to the slight (grams) weight difference in the 350 and 305 pistons. They both come out of the very same casting molds at the foundry. They are the same weight, casting number and dimensions. There is a BIG FAT "0" performance advantge. The only advantage is to the machinest that does the balancing with the approved NHRA component weights. Makes it easier Lighten up! No need insuating or calling a person a cheat!

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

To add to Adjer's post sbc 267-305-350 all have the same cranks the counterweights stroke all are the same like Adjer said only difference is 305 has deeper holes in countrweight then 267 has more holes,you can swap them without doing anything if you don't like your teeth or think you can hold a steering wheel that gets a 3'' thick when you rev engine,it would be like riding a bull can you hang on long enough or will it fly apart first.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Adger
You are correct in saying that all these cranks are basically the same although came in different engines and by the rule book would be illegal to use in any application other than their own. A good example is using a 427 Chevy truck crank put into a 396 Chevy BB but I reread Charles Rainey's thread and I think what he is asking is, if you add heavy metal to a crank that is not changing from external to internal--is it legal to do so and let it be seen or do you need to hide it by welding over it. I have always welded over mine just to stay pot of problems with NHra, but is it ok just to add one slug of say 1/2" heavy metal and go own or should we hide it cosmetically. I think that his is a good question that we can answer.
reed

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Adger is correct.

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Go F yourself Mr no name Texas Ranger asswipe.

Adgers analogy of the rods is BS. If I go to the parts counter for a 350 rod, or a 305 rod, they will give me the same part. NOT true of the crank.

The statement "or should we hide it cosmetically" says it ALL. WHY would you have to HIDE it if if were LEGAL??????

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Just what I expected,
You didn't even answer my first question. All you spouted was your usual retoric.
When I had to answer it you come back with more of your retoric to meet your own agenda.
Bill, I've picked up and handled, (ground and balanced and resized) more 305 cranks and 350 cranks and 305 rods and 350 rods than you have ever seen. If 305 rods are different then why is it listed in the NHRA accepted products list on page 9 under Chevrolet that both 350 and 305 rods weigh 550 grams? Just an unfortunate coincidence, I guess.
Just keep on telling people to F them selves and calling them cheats.
Thats real big of you & helps push your agendas, too.

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Adger, you didn't read my post carefully. I agreed that the rods are the same.
" If I go to the parts counter for a 350 rod, or a 305 rod, they will give me the same part." I said the cranks were different... and they are.

I have no agenda other than to participate in an organization where the rules are followed. I wouldn't think that is too much to ask, but obviously I am wrong about that.

I'm done with this thread. Have a nice day. :)

Re: Stocker Crankshaft Heavy Metal
 

Bill - Take your meds.

Since the specs for piston-rod weights is a bit on the shy side from what reality weights are for factory pieces, sometimes it is easier to start with a 305 crank for a 350 application since it was balanced at the factory for lighter pistons. Less work that way, you know.