NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Just wondering wha tthe round money and payouts are for an NHRA Div'l race? IHRA publishes their's in Drag Review (not a great payout format), but I never see NHRA's listed. Just wondering. Thanks.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Here's the D2 payout info....other divisions will vary some (for entry fees especially) and D2 is doing the "unleashed" classes again.

http://www.nhradiv2.com/content/gene...137&zoneid=161

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Here's the division 1 payout. Probably the same this year I would imagine:

http://www.nhradiv1.com/content/gene...203&zoneid=147


Division 7:

http://www.nhradiv7.com/apcm/APCMvie...rint=yes1%20of


-Toby

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

I always figured it was up to the track`s descretion. I remember losing in the semis of Stock at the Denver points meet in `96 and received $225(5 round race,$85 or so entry). Then 6 years later lost in the semis again and received $125(6 round race and $150 entry). It`s gotten better since then.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

You are probably right, Lane. I would imagine each track could payout whatever they want to. These payout schedules are probably just guidelines. I think most tracks follow them though.


-Toby

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Seems the national event contingency is down. No Edelbrock,Impact ,Lucas or Valvoline listed in Dragster. Maybe later?

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Wow. Looking at some of the posted payout information, round money is really bad for both HRA's.

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=244470

If all IHRA Pro-Am's pay out like this, no wonder hardly anyone goes.

In regards to Toby Lang's link, in 2011 at an NHRA Div 1 LODRS race, I'd get $25 LESS than I did ten years ago for a fourth round loss, and the entry fee is $45 MORE.


Makes a race like Hagerstown look better and better...

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

The tracks and sanctioning bodies each have operating expenses, not to mention some reasonable expectation of profit. Please offer suggestions for an entry fee/payout schedule that achieves the same bottom line.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Using current entry vs payout ratios in NHRA and IHRA, using a 63 car field in Stock

IHRA 63 cars x 135 per car = $8,505 taken in.
Payouts (round money plus Win and R/U) = $2,840 (3,040 in Super Stock); 33.3% payout of entry fees; IHRA keeps $5,665

Since the five lower Sportsman Eliminators (Stk, S/S, Q/R, S/R and H/R) are the same payouts (+/- $200), IHRA at that race would make, approximately, $27,500 per race, per day, based on entry fee at the gate vs payout. $55,000 for the weekend. Not counting the $40 per crew member for the weekend. This sounds great, unless the cost of the track and IHRA for the weekend is over $60K to put those events on. It would seem that IHRA could be better served to up the round money a bit (currently, you need to get to the fifth round to break even or a little better for your day's entry) to help possibly draw more cars and make the money back that they put into the payout.

BTW, NHRA, based on the same 63 cars, takes in $10,710 (@ $170 per car) and pay out $3,900, keeping $6,810, making their race a 36.1% payback race. Not much better.

Obviously, IHRA and the track probably made little, to nothing (probably lost money), on the Immokalee races. Though I do believe the low car counts are a reflection of the low round money paid out. A racer from up here would tow 1,200 miles one way there to race, make it to the 4th round both days (if it were a six round race), and actually lose money (won $240, paid $270 to race). A person, even those who love to race, would look at that scenario and say "Nah, I'll pass".

I think if IHRA were to increase the round money, or lower the entry fee a bit (getting to the third round gets you your entry fee back) would be a plus to perhaps draw more cars to compete.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Since I am not a racer but just a fan my question is how do national events and divisional payouts compare to specialty events? Like the dutch or a s/ss association race? Is there a way for the tracks to get more local sponsors so they can up the payouts to draw more cars? That's really the only way the hra's can survive and expand is more draw of competitors while not losing the ones you have.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

What are the odds of winning or being a runner up to gain any winnings worth traveling very far? Not very good at either HRA's to make/cover any expenses in todays economy of high fuel costs, wear and tear, cost of car and prep with todays rules, and entries. The pay outs have NOT kept up with what it cost to compete today. Dont forget that 1/2 (One half of you) WILL loose in the FIRST round. One half of the next round will be on the trailer after the 2nd round. Its a gamble at best no matter what. What matters is....did you have a great time and enjoy yourself in this game called drag racing?

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Like they say: "You can't win if you don't play."

Or as Mickey likes to say: "You can't win if you get tangled up."


-Toby

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

X-tech you have a point,but maybe there is a solution to the cost of playing the game. What is say you got a class sponsor? It works for pro mod, I understand there are less cars but they are running for money also. Say you got Hershey's to sponsor D-1 stock and super stock. You could pay larger winnings and maybe pay more say second round winner gets money to cover entry fee. Not only do you need to bring in fans like myself, but we need to keep guys like Ed racing since racers like him bring in different combos that cater to different fans. Yes we all love the big runs from the new cars, but the fun is can they catch the Ed's and Billy Nees of the world.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Sadly, it appears that many sanctioning bodies, and quite a few race tracks, are operating under the theory that charging as much as the market will possibly bear is the best way to have a good bottom line. Sort of the same way many politicians figure the best way to maximize revenue is to maximize the tax rates.


It simply doesn't work. High entry fees combined with stagnant purses and rapidly dwindling contingency payouts are causing car counts to shrink. Low car counts are providing poor shows, and low entertainment value, that, combined with high ticker prices creates empty stands, and poor TV ratings. Empty stands and poor TV ratings turn off potential sponsors. Stack all of this on a weak economy, with high unemployment and higher fuel prices, and you have a good reason for tracks closing, and race cars being parked, or turned into street cars.


You have the same chance at the same money (at least for the winner and runner up) if you tow to Bowling Green for a combo race as you do if you tow to Georgia or Florida for a LODRS race. The entry fee for the Bowling Green race is $50 for the car and driver. The "glory" of a win at a "sanctioned event" will cost you about an extra $600.

NHRA needs to come up with something different. Their current system "punishes" racers if they don't run LODRS races by preventing them from running national events due to a lack of grade points. Honestly, "punishing" potential customers is the wrong approach. They need to be rewarding races for attending LODRS events by treating them better and paying them more. It's a slap in the face to the sportsman racers that "Top Alcohol" is payed more than double for a win and 3 times as much for a runner up finish.


Racers and spectators are customers. They should be treated as such. As opposed to being treated as a cash cow or a sheep to be fleeced.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Nail on Head, Mike Carr.
Neither offer good return on your money, but at least I get the feeling that NHRA officials are earning that income. You should take a look at IHRA's National Event Payout.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Speak for yourself.....we ALL do NOT love the so called BIG RUNS by the new cars. Personally Id rather watch Ron Ortiz run Ed Fernandez any day. You know.....REAL and affordable stockers.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Wow. That was a pretty optimistic comparison. And the last IHRA Pro-Am that drew 441 cars was....?

If you recall, IHRA payouts used to start a round earlier, a practice which was discontinued when the car counts no longer sustained such payouts.

Please tell us what the car count would be in each class if the round money were doubled.

It's really easy to spend other people's money. Go rent a track, petition for a Pro-Am event, guarantee a significantly increased purse with no risk to IHRA or the track, and you can reap the rewards from the massive amount of racers that beat down your door.

Again, please offer suggestions for an entry fee/payout schedule that achieves the same bottom line.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Yesterday,there were 8 cars in Super Stock.IF you got to the third round,you would have been in the final.I'm sure the winner still made about $2000 with contingency.Not too many places where the return is that good in Sportsman racing.There were NO buybacks either.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

That would depend on a few things.

1) Does IHRA, the host track, or both have a set price of profit they need to make? "I need to make $_,___ profit to make it worthwhile for me (track) to host an Pro-AM, and/or for us (IHRA) to give said track a Pro-Am?" What is the 'bottom line' needed for IHRA Div'ls, for both parties?

2) When I started racing IHRA in 2002, a Pro-Am was $100 entry, single race weekend. I believe it was $80 2nd round loser, and $40 for each additional round won. $120 3rd round, 160 4th round, etc. Now, ten years later, a Pro-Am costs $35 more to enter, with reduced payouts/round money. Again, not a lot of racers are going to be pushing and shoving to get to the front of that line.

3) With the current entry/payouts, I would be willing to bet you'll NEVER see 441 cars at an IHRA Pro-Am. 300, tops, 'maybe'. If payouts doubled, as you asked, car counts would definately increase. Though, Michael, you know as well as I do, some racers would not support IHRA no matter what. Same with NHRA, some IHRA racers will not cross over to the 'dark side'.

To address your other question

Current IHRA entry/payout, for 40 cars, in Stock
40 cars x $135 = $5,400 taken in, in car entry
-Five 3rd round loser @ $80 = 400
-Two 4th round loser @ 120 = 240
-One 5th round loser @ 160 = 160
-Win 1,000 and R/U 400 = 1,400
*Total payout, $2,200. IHRA/Track keeps $3,200*

Maybe a better scenario
40 x 125 (lower entry) = $5,000 taken in, in car entry
-Five 3rd round losers @ 125 = 625
-Two 4th round losers @ 175 = 350
-One 5th round loser @ 225 = 225
-Win 1,000 and R/U 400 = 1,400
*Total payout = 2,600. IHRA/Track keeps 2,400* It could be adjusted to be a 50/50 split of payout, and what the hosts (IHRA and track) keep. Again, I don't know what an acceptable number is to their 'bottom line'.

IHRA and the Track still make some money, and the entry vs payouts are bit more fair.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Remember last year....The "Combo in the Hills" paid $10,000 to win. They had what....84 or so cars stock/Super Stock combined. Thats a really GOOD payout plus the guys who kicked in the extra payouts. One reason the car count was down was there were NO grade points. NHRA has a captive audiance. Its called "GRADE POINTS". If you dont have those then you no can go play in their ball field at their National events. IHRA dosent hang that around the necks of the races so racers are less likley to attend an IHRA points race and the circuit/combo events due to limited resources and that equals less car counts. The "Combo in the Hills" is proof that its not all about the round and win money.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Ain't that the truth....

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

So what has changed that makes the payout percentage so much less than it used to be? Lower car counts or higher operating expenses for HRA's? What needs to be done to get it back to were it used to be?

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

This may come as a shock to some but a track has to pay a substantial fee to NHRA just for the privledge of holding a divisional event. Their advertising, staff and operational costs are all up for the weekend then they are responsable for covering payouts. No idea how that formula works but what was once an event that made a little money for a track is now becoming a burden for some.

Lower car and spectator counts hurt and there's alot of reasons for that. I agree that the pay-in VS pay-out is completely lopsided but as been often discussed here, this deal is broken from the top down and I don't think it will ever get fixed.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Current all-told expenses for an NHRA Lucas Oil weekend are about $70K for the track operator, between sanctioning fee (around $15K), payout, staff, insurance, lights, and amortized expenses (but not including real estate).

The "bogey" to make a profit is therefore probably between 380-400 cars depending on the track. Current car counts vary between 280 to 420, depending on weather, date, and location. It's not a low risk proposition even with the current payout.

And there may be fewer contingency sponsors, but I've noticed a higher percentage of them pay quickly.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

The last few posts are dead-on. File race promotion under "You think you know, but you have no idea." A partner and I promoted a big money Footbrake race Thanksgiving weekend, so I know first hand what track rentals cost, *and* how many thousands of dollars you can rack up doing promotion for an entire year, along with all of the little extras we did for the racers. Our payouts are some of the strongest anywhere. There's a reason why we've chosen the business name "Loose Rocker Promotions". Most people in their right mind wouldn't work for 10-12 months on a single event and pay out what we do. Also, something that we do is offer purse incentives. If we have 200+ cars in any race, we DOUBLE the rate the round money increases. (FYI, we had 191 entries on the first day last year, and I'm confident that we'll hit the bonus level this year! ...if gas prices don't go nutty) And payout percentages change depending on car count. Our two $5K events payout percentages were 10% different.... and that came out to a difference of $4,500. This is not a game. This is real money, and until you put YOUR butt on the line, it's not as 'real' to you. You can go from making good money to losing everything very quickly. What's the incentive for a track or promoter to increase their risk exposure massively compared to the 'safe' profit of a test n' tune?

If it were easy, everyone would do it. The US Class Nationals was a slam dunk, right? Why hasn't it been done since? I know, I've looked at the numbers hard, and at one time had a date and location already in talks with a track. There's a reason... and y'all already touched on it. I sincerely hope that the Combo in the Hills is huge this year, as it deserves to be. Many people didn't support THAT race last year, yet we think that more cars are going to magically materialize at Divisional races on either side of the fence if they pay more money?

That being said... yah... R/U this weekend in a short race, and will still be in the hole. Coming away with the points lead with a gold card and TOC qualifying position on the line is the only justification for going. (Well, that and both Ralph Hester's BBQ and Ron Ortiz's steak, wings, and... um... moss.) My same performance (or lack thereof, as it turns out) would earn me $125 at an LODRS, far worse than my R/U take. Realistically, Orlando and Gainesville make no financial sense for me, particularly with this being my busiest time of the year. With 45+ customer projects in line right now, I can't afford two straight weeks of 3-day work weeks. I can race locally for two $2K's this weekend and two $3K's next weekend. (and probably won't even go this weekend... need to work and catch up.)

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Don't forget NHRA gave the Division Race two more classes to make payouts on a couple of years ago which increased their costs. Top Sportsman and Top Dragster were added but very few new cars were added and not enough to make up for the added payouts. Most of those class cars came out of Super Gas and Super Comp and those classes were reduced in numbers.
I had one track operator tell me that change took all the profit out of their division race the first year. I have not talked to him about it since that first year but I know a Division Race is not as profitable as a Big Money Bracket Race at that one track.
My 2 Cents
Rick Cates

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Don't forget D2 also runs the 10.00, 11.00, 12.00 classes and their low car counts wouldn't have paid their purse last year, suppose NHRA still wants to experiment with this since the Unleashed thing seems to have kinda fallen on it's face. Local bracket races are so much more attractive to many, especially with diesel hovering at $4.00 with more increases predicted. Personally, I want the local tracks to stay healthy; otherwise there will be no tracks besides those like Bruton's Charlotte facility, existing just for the sake of a few specialty events and NHRA's Fuel show.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Well, to me an R/U is an R/U no matter how many cars there are. So, an R/U at a D2 LODRS would have earned you $500 ($600 at a D1 event.)

I guess the question is then, how much would you have earned last weekend if it were a six round race and you went out in the third round?


-Toby

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

While that's a positive attitude I appreciate, it is not statistically correct. I won (if you want to call it that) 3 rounds to get the R/U ($500). My chances of winning just 3 consecutive rounds is nearly double that of winning 5 rounds to R/U. Every round more that you have to go, you have to add a factor of your round-win percentage. The more rounds in a race, the less chance you have of winning it.

To be honest, I don't know that I would've traveled 13hrs if I thought it was going to be a 6-round race. Historically, I knew that Super Stock at this event was likely to be a 3-round or 4-round race tops, which made the risk of the significant travel expenses worth the gamble, particularly with the race being a Wild Card claim and Sunday being a TOC Qualifier with National Event level contingency. It certainly wouldn't be a cakewalk with the quality of drivers that comprised the limited field, but the odds still play out favorably. While the weekend could've turned out better, the R/U kept the losses at a minimum, and I come out with a 35 point lead in Div. 2 SS, helping me toward a TOC Qualifier spot and potentially a Div. Championship which would be another $1,500 and a Gold Card. This is one of the few years that I haven't had a gold card, something that would've turned this weekend's venture into the plus side.

That being said, if you wish to compare round money only...

IHRA Div. 2
3rd round loss = $80 (-$55 less than entry)
4th round loss = $120 (-$15 less than entry, assuming 17+ cars)
5th round loss = $160 (+$25 more than entry)

NHRA Div. 2
3rd round loss = $100 (-$60 less than entry)
4th round loss = $125 (-$35 less than entry)
5th round loss = $150 (-$10 less than entry)

...not a *huge* difference in the big scheme of things, but the travel expenses and days off work make NHRA racing significantly more expensive. NHRA's contingency program is significantly better, which is one of the primary reasons why I will be running some.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Okay Mr. Beard since you have done this what is the solution? Can't classes get their own sponsors? Would that help the payouts with out hurting the tracks cut. In the end owning a track is a business so a healthy financially stable race track is good for everybody.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

So, I guess the lower the car count the better and since the Jeg's All-Star race is only three rounds, that should be a breeze compared to a normal six or seven round race. :)

There's a flaw in the D2 payout schedule (there is no 7th round loser, 7th round loser is called R/U in S/SS.) So, your chart should look like this, IMO:

NHRA Div. 2
3rd round loss = $125 (-$35 less than entry)
4th round loss = $150 (-$10 less than entry)
5th round loss = $200 (+$40 more than entry)


-Toby

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

-=sigh=- You know what I was getting at. I'm sorry for not getting into every single permutation and combination of likely participants qualifying orders and head-to-head matchups AND I specifically said that the shorter field did not indicate a cakewalk. It still stands to reason in most circumstances that it's easier to win a 4 round race than a 6 round race.

Has that been verified? (or should the Rnd 7 line simply be dropped?) At first glance the numbers looked the same as Div. 4.

- We're not going to solve the world's (class racing) problems in an afternoon on a forum. I have a large list of things that could potentially help the sport, which have been done in the past, continue to implemented, or are advocated for the future. In many cases, the necessary parties are unwilling or unmotivated to make the short term sacrifices or long term commitments to see things through for the big picture. Some of the solutions are right under our nose.

- Yes classes could get sponsors, and obviously this could help all concerned. We have a pretty fair number of marketing partners for our Fall Footbrake Frenzy and American Doorslammer Nationals events, and you see S/SS Combo associations retain sponsors. I believe the biggest issues here are:
1) It's possible that there is an exclusivity issue with Lucas Oil / Summit Racing Equipment being the title sponsors that would preclude a naming rights sponsor on an individual class. But even barring that, you have a lot of companies already involved in contingency programs. What is their return on investment for additional sponsorship?
2) What extra value is the sanctioning body/track/promoter/event providing to these sponsors (existing and potential?)

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Beard is one of only a handful of racers who accurately understand this point. It is THE definition of what we do and how we do it.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Michael,

I understand what you mean, I was just being a smart ***.

So, you like the low car counts, right? Is that part of the reason you don't run more NHRA races?

About the D2 payouts, that is just my guess of how it should be. Mary Meints posted a thread about it earlier:

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=38780

Maybe she will update that thread when she finds out.


-Toby

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Do they provide a higher likilihood of return on investment, yes. Do I LIKE low car count races? NO. It's not sustainable and not good for the long term of our sport. Although it stands to reason that if everybody went to low car count races... they wouldn't BE low car count races in the first place! :rolleyes: If I can improve my chances and add support races that need it at the same time, all the better.

And as I've already explained innumerable times over the years, and as recently as two posts ago in this thread, the reason I don't run more NHRA races is "the travel expenses and days off work make NHRA racing significantly more expensive," which I detailed last year with specific comparisons of chasing a Div'l and/or World Championship. And as I have also stated over the years, I don't agree with some of NHRA's policy decisions, and my choice has been to express my opinions about issues, and then if I am still dissatisfied and have other viable options, I will vote with my feet and run elsewhere. Until recently, I have had no need to run NHRA, as my schedule has had more than enough options for me to race 37+ weekends a year, usually multiple times per weekend. Due to the current climate of contingency postings and event exposure, I now need to start working in NHRA events in order to maintain or improve value for my sponsors.

I *had* planned on going to Orlando and Gainesville, but the first quarter of the year is always my busiest of the year, and like last year, I can't afford anymore 3-day work weeks. When I get moved to Ohio, maybe the longer winters will make my racing and work schedule mesh better.

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

FYI -- Apparently the Div 2 payout is not "based on a 128 car field" because this response from Rich indicates that the 7th round loser line should simply be deleted. Again, it appears from this response that the payouts listed are "correct". Here is his response:

If we have a 128+ cars in a class this weekend I think Carl will be very happy. I'll find out why it's listed that way and get it clarified as soon as we can over the coming weeks. But I don't see it as an immediate problem. If we have a 128+ cars in a class, no track on our series is going to welch on paying 7th round loser money. The tracks see the same payout forms so they know if there's 8 rounds there will be 7th round money to be factored in.

See 'ya in Orlando.

Rich

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

Its a pretty safe bet that there will NOT be more than 128 cars in Stock or Super Stock.

IF there was,then there would be some DNQ's that would not even get to race.

But IF there were 128 cars,they are saying that a SEMI-FINALIST who lost in the sixth round would get $200 after paying a $160 entry fee?

Re: NHRA LODRS Divisional payout info?
 

I can go for the fewer rounds being a better race to make money at. Look at the round expense of running your car. That should be a factor, too. Don't just look at the expenses of entry fees,hotel and tow fuel. Most race cars I have eat, expensive valve springs, drink expensive fuel and wear out costly tires. As well as wear out Hi dollar converters and transmission parts and shocks. (If care is not taken Shocks can wear or get hurt riding long distances in your trailer)
Some cars operate round by round cheaper than others, but most real fast cars are costly per round. Do you have any idea what a round of racing really costs you?
With all of today's added travel expenses I'm of the opinion that if you have a bracket type car that operates cheaper per round than most expensive class cars you stand a better chance of paying for your chosen fun at local index or bracket races.
All of what I just posted has been a topic of discussion at my shop with many of my customers, even Circle Burners. You might be surprised at how each individual justifies how they race.