Is the Hybrid really the solution?
Despite persistently high gasoline prices, only 35 percent of hybrid owners who purchased a new car in 2011 stuck with the segment, a figure that drops below 25 percent when owners of the market leading Toyota Prius are factored out of the equation. Even in traditionally “green” cities like Los Angeles and Seattle, the loyalty rate remained the same. Although sales of hybrids have spiked in early 2012, the gas-electric vehicles made up only 2.4 percent of the new car market last year, down from a record high of 2.9 percent in 2008. According to the Polk study, customers interested in hybrids diligently cross-shop them against conventionally-powered vehicles, which have seen great improvements in fuel economy in recent years. A survey from TrueCar.com released last week points out that, even a more than a decade after the first hybrid cars went on sale in the United States, it can take many years to recoup the high upfront costs in fuel savings. However, automakers can take some solace in the fact that shoppers surveyed by Polk by and large stayed loyal to the brand of their hybrid, even if they switched to a different type of vehicle. Toyota, for instance, retained 60 percent of its hybrid customer base, while more than half of Honda hybrid owners purchased another Honda. Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/04/09/survey-says-most-hybrid-car-owners-dont-buy-another/#ixzz1rc1IjIWJ Maybe not.... If two out of three who buy one, don't buy another.. Guess it is a case of "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me". David The New Hemi Guy |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
Works for me......I think the solution (other than a political comment) is to drive less and drink more. (at home)
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Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
Now you are talking...
I had hoped that this post qualifed as either social, economic, or auto trend reporting.. Don't make it political.... please. You dont know how hard it is to avoid posting political comments..........But I am trying.... David The New Hemi Guy |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
I would love to see a complete carbon footprint study on exactly how much energy is expended to scratch build a hybrid vs. a conventional car, how great the difference is and if it ever can be recovered. I doubt that the Greenies ever consider this.
And OBTW, those giant windmills and solar panels too! |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
Isnt there an issue of the cost to recharge an electric car? Seemed that even though you didnt buy gas the electric costs were worse than the gas price per miles.
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Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
Up here in the great white north you need to heat the interior and defrost the windsheild 6 months of the year. This takes a lot of electricity. ---Trevor
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Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
What ever happened to Hydrogen cars? Water as only bi-product and fueling stations needed. Probably will be developed by an engineering college as a student project. Anyone driving a Chevy Suburban with the Hybrid motor?
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Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
I worked for Toyota many years. The hybrids have been pretty darn good overall. We had a shortage of 12 voltbatteries for a time in 95. Had 7 or 8 Priuses waiting for one for too long.
The smell inside of a new one when we prepped them was like plastic poison. Lasted quite a while too. They the first gens all had a distinctive smell, but so many cars do. We sure made a lot of garbage preppingthem with all the parts wrapped in cardboard and plastic wraps. Ford and Nissan bought the technology for their hybrids. Toyota bought into Subaru which is why it still exists for its battery technology. Toyota is an impressive car brand and likes to be the best. Hybrid camrys and highlanders followed and they were excellent too. Get a hybrid highlander rear electric diff, it makes 37hp.Thats a lot for an electric motor. The problem is no good maintenance to earn money from. Techs starve. I left in 08, but I know they are still better then most. I've been told trucks will follow for hybrids. I was also told Honda was working on diesels a while back. Still have not seen one. |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
It would seem that more auto makers are jumping on the hybrid market:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_news.shtml BMW is working on a 7 Series that is hydrogen powered and a number of Hollywood celebs have been given them to test drive. With regards to the hybrids, I have to go along with my non-gearhead oldest daughter who bought a Prius two years ago and is extremely happy. She did have a battery problem but the customer service made it seamless and she was back on the road in a couple of days. |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
I don't know the reason why people are left with a bad taste for Hybrids, I've myself never owned one, but if they are slugs...it would be understandable...I tried to go the " great gas mileage " way recently. I did not buy a hybrid, but settled for a 4 cylinder shoved in a new Malibu (2009). Bought it new...nice car...I hated that power-plant. Every time you went up a little grade...it downshifted. Constantly flaring the motor. Yea it got GREAT gas mileage....got 36 mpg on our first trip out west.Fact is ..it just wasn't enough motor for that car. ..So in 2010 I got rid of it and bought a V-6. Same car( one year newer) ...different motor. I think it has 255 HP. I can not explain to you in print how different that engine makes this car...There is NO comparison. It is night and day. I really like this thing....Guess what..Lost 8 miles per gallon . you know what? I would not go back ...The loss of gas mileage is WORTH having something you like to drive....I wonder if this survey is not something along these lines.?
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Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
The last underpowered car I bought was a 1968 Dodge Monaco with a 318. I hated that particular car before it was stolen. But then it got returned all beat to crap, and I liked it even less. I had traded a 1963 390 Merc convertible on it. That merc was big and heavy, but still ran like a bear... The Dodge with a 318 ran more like a mouse..
Next to my current driver a 2008 Dodge SRT8, my favorite car was my 1976 Pontiac Grand Prix with a 455 and posi. It even had an electric sun roof and an 8 track in it... No more underpowered cars for this dude.. If gas gets too expensive to drive my fun cars, I will move to a house on a big hill, and just coast them down ocassionaly for the "thrill". By then it will be OK. I probably won't remember that I live at the top of the hill. So I dont need to worry about how to tget the cars back to the top. . David The New Hemi Guy |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
I guess we are breaking new ground here. 2 out of 3 people don't buy the exact car they just got rid of. I drive a new prius and Love it. Compared to a 30 mpg car at 1000 miles a month, I save $58/month at current gas prices. Over 100,000 miles, thats $5,800. Can you find a $18,000 car that can compete with the prius in room, saftey features and basic options? thats what you would need to break even, I'm pretty sure gas prices aint going down either.
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Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
Scuderi Split Fire Engine......65 MPG then couple to a hybrid it will be higher.
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/...ntcmp=features |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
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not new.... and when the battery craps out? |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
I didn't find a new prius for $18,000. I found a new one for $23,700. Hence, the breaking even part.
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Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
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although of the hybrids, the toyota is the best (for what THATS worth)... to me, it would make more sense to have a diesel/hybrid... my wife has a scion xa that'll get 35 mpg without trying and i have got as high as 49 running in the hills |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
Do you just pull numbers out of your butt to make your point of view? The whole drivetrain including the battery is warrantied for 100,000 miles or 8 years. The cost of a Brand New Battery is less than $3000 installed. The XA is not near the car a prius is. I should know, I had a XB. A 100,000 mile prius, with our without a new battery, holds its value considerably better than a 100,000 mile XA. Less that 1% of Prius batteries have failed before 180,000 miles. All facts
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Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
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great, you're stuck with a prius for 8 years, they are (this includes just about everything new) for all intents and purposes, a toaster. and as far as a prius being a better car....uh, no. both about the same as far as quality and BOTH need more power.. but the question originally was , are hybrids the solution? i say no. |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
Clearly you made your mind up before you even did one shred of research. Please explain to me how I'm "stuck" with it for 8 years? Please tell me you don't think you would get a better rate of return on selling an XA after 3 years vs a Prius. I don't have to go 100,000 miles to make my money back.
BTW, Scion is a very good choice and is the closest thing to a prius in overall value. |
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i don't NEED to do any more "research", i actually work on them. don't care for the way they drive,or for some of the B.S. issues they have, or the fact that they have all the styling of a bar of soap. you like the car? fine. i don't have to. |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
Billy Nees for our new leader.He drives a Geo and that thing got 50+ mpg going to Florida a few years ago.grannted it didn't have a CD player and the cheap ($*$%& wouldn't let me put the a/c on but it was a pretty comfortable ride,except for the tire that was going square on us.Viva la Geo.
92 more to go |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
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How can you work on them and not know how much it cost to change the battery? You must do it alot cuz you also implied that my battery will go out when you said, "when that 7-10K battery takes a hike, you may want to scrap it". You didn't say "if it goes out" , even though less than 1% fail before 180 K. Just how many Prius' have you seen with 180 k on them? Now, if you don't work at a Toyota dealer, I understand why you don't like them. To complicated for your avg mechanic. |
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i have to fix the stuff they can't.... btw, i ALSO don't have to make out the bills. |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
I bought my wife a little around town car back in the 80s, the Chevy Sprint. The car got 54 mpg but was dangerous on the open hiway. I would compare it to the Fiat 500 in size and if an 18 wheeler went by you had to hold on.
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Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
In early 08 I had a customer at the Toyota dealer w a hybrid Camry. It had a very smally dash rattle, but I have to tell you it sounds different than any other car. He explains to me the car is the only place he can talk to his fatheras he is legallydeaf over 20 years and has nothad a real conversation till he bought the Camry. He and his dad would drive around or just park so they may talk. I fixed the rattle. Thecar drove so quietit was unnerving to me. NO road noise at all. Best quiet cabin I've ever seen, and for that alone I hope I never need one. The customer was so happy it was fixed. I was happy for him as they had not sploken in so long till this car.
On another note, you disconnect the rear diff on the hybrid highlander and the torque of the front whell drive wil leave posi marks as long as you stand on it. No you can't do it at home, only thru the scan tool. They are excellent vehicles. along w the rest of the fleet they build. America can learn, Ford did by purchasing rights to hybrid technology 1 from toyodel. Toyota is on like 4th or 5th gen now. I look forward to Tacomas and full size. But there is a weightpenalty, and I'd still not want to be in a badd accident in one. Too each his own. I still like standard vehicles and all are so improved in every brand available. But the hybrids are good for techies. Some get up to 100mpg w double batterys in those ugly priuses. Not my cup of tea, I buy cheap and fix my own to drive cars. |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
Economics: More electric cars means more demand on electricity, which means higher prices for electricity. More electric cars means less gas used, which means less gas taxes paid. Will the lost revenue be made up in higher taxes on electricity, gasoline, or the implementation of a new tax?
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Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
There is a benefit to having a strong* hybrid, a benefit that Toyota has only just started advertising for the 2012 model year Camry- it's like having a power adder.
My 2008 Camry hybrid has a 120 HP gas engine and an electric motor that adds the equivalent of 60 more HP, for a total of 180 in a 2600 lb car.The 2012 now has a total of 200 hp. The torque is instantaneous when rolling, but the traction control won't allow it to launch hard. I took it down to the Maxton Mile and entered in the E/Production class. The record was a tad over 125 mph, set by a 1960 Ford Ranchero (a Falcon pick up truck) with a full-race Pinto 2300 cc OHC engine. Headers, ported heads, race cam, no rules that limit compression. My box-stock Camry was classified by displacement, no penalty for the extra motor. I hit the chip about 200 feet from the line, and coasted through with the engine still shut off, clocked at 118.7+. The chip was set for 120, and it's clear it would have picked up a few more mph with the speedometer recalibrated or taller tires on the drive wheels. It also ran back to back 15.90's at Cecil County on a sweltering hot July afternoon. The ECM won't let the tires spin, so the 60 foot times were atrocious, and the only way to cut a light is to use a technique Michael Beard once described when he raced his mother's car- which is to put down the visor to block the top bulb, then react to the SECOND yellow. Not quite the slug I expected when I bought it. I got it when gasoline was over $4.00 at the end of 2007 and early 2008, thinking I'd hate it, but the V-8 pick up truck I was using had cost me $9600 for fuel that year (I drive a lot), so I was gonna suck it up. Instead, it saved almost $400/mo, and I really piss off the Mustang 5.0 drivers on I-95, when I pull away from them in high gear. BTW- hybrids do not need to be recharged, and Toyota offers an extended warranty that covers the inevitable battery replacement. Mine is at 145,000 miles and in its fifth year. *none of the domestics are strong hybrids- except the new Ford Focus. |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
Driving a prius is the closest thing to casteration a man could deal with without feeling the knife. Totally silly. I have to pass two of those POSs every morning climbing the hills on 101. It's fun to spool up the turbo in the big Dodge when I blow by them. Quit embarresing yourself and buy american labels.
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Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suFpV...eature=related
about the 5 min mark about covers it ;) j/k... |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
I've worked on cars for 40 years. I've worked at the City of Los Angeles vehicle fleet services shop for 25 years now. We had to phase out all our Chevy Cavaliers for the first gen Prius in 2003.We also got Honda Civic hybrids at the same time. The Prius caused us more problems with electrical issues and dead starting batteries,etc all of which went warranty(when you buy cars by the hundreds, they fix stuff on warranty if they ever want to sell more cars to us),and while the Civics weren't perfect, they were far better than the prius.The Honda looks conventional and drives much more like a gas only car without some of the hybrid ideosyncrasies ,and thry didn't seem to break down as much.Both manufacturers have offered warranty computer updates and free(warranty),and Honda offers free pick up and delivery. Problem with a warranty glitch,even though the fix is free,I have to send someone to drive it, and someone else to pick him up in another car or the shop truck for a minimum of two man hours,then two more to pick it up after repairs are completed by the dealer,for a total of four hours shop time. That's substantial overhead per repair.Also,much of LA's drive time is freeway,and neither car offers hardly any mileage improvement over surface streets. The idea is a good one,but it isn't practical for all applications. Still, these cars are past the guinea pig stage,and other than the main battery pack replacement issue( who'se going to pay for it?),they aren't at all impractical.The whole concept ot the hybrid isn't a new one,at all. In the 1920's, in an ever increasing search for more power, more reliability, and less costs of operation,the nation's railroads were constantly experimenting with new forms of motive power. Hooking a gas engine to a transmission and a gear driven drivetrain to a drive axle didn't work with rail wheels. A torque converter automatic didn't exist then but hydraulic gas and diesel powered locomotives were tried, and the thing that eventually won was the construction of electric drive engines based on a large version of a streetcar powertrain.After all,when does an electric motor develop max torque?Dead stall, when you are trying to get a train to leave the line. Add a large capacity generator to provide the electricity and a large prime mover(engine to drive the generator), and you have a self contained,self generating diesel hybrid electric propulsion unit. In the late 1930's General Motors built prototype demonstrater units, toured the country with them, sold as many as they could build, and their money came in faster than they could count it. Between 1920 and 1960, they repowered an entire industry from steam to diesel. During WW II, the demand for rail transportation by the military resulted in the need for more power,but diesel engines were in demand for tanks,ships,and submarines, and some of the finest, best and most powerful and efficient steam locomotives were built, then only used for about a decade. Most were scrapped with less than 25% of their service life used. I guess all things come around again, however.Seems to me, a small light diesel engine would be great for driving a hybrid. That could actually be a 100 mpg car.
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Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
A Prius really is a sh_t box. It is not the only hybrid, and far from the best, only one of the first. Toyota keeps them ugly because that appeals to a market segment consisting of organic vegetarians that are making a political statement with said sh_t box.
But the question asked was, "are they the future"? At The 24 Hours of Lemans, there will be hybrids and in past years there have been"flybrids" entered by Toyota in Prototype and Porsche in GT. They are dumping millions into energy recovery systems, such as a lightweight, high rpm flywheel system that keeps spinning from its own momentum, both while running, and after shut off to continue charging the battery pack, hence the name, flybrid. The Toyota will have electric motors on each wheel, two will power wheels, two will be spun by the wheels to act as alternators, and thus recharge the batteries while in motion. One journalist asked if having motors on each wheel could be used as a form of traction control, which is illegal in that form of racing. Fair question. There may also be an all-electric that will have super-capacitors for energy storage, I think instead of batteries, or maybe in addition to. This car is not expected to be anywhere near the lead lap when the race is over, but they do think it will run competitive laps in between extended pit stops. The long stops will be needed for re-charging. Why they don't just swap out the battery packs is beyond me. Last, a Belgian company is working toward developing a hydrogen powered race engine, also for Lemans. The biggest engineering challenge comes from sealing the engine. Hydrogen being lighter than air, it seeps out everywhere, the valve guides, the ring gaps, they even have to keep the injector rail pressure low because of seepage. This, in turn, limits the rpm. Who knew. But these sound like solvable issues. The real challenge will be making it affordable. Ground transportation is definitely going to be different sooner or later. But that doesn't mean it has to be boring. |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
My wife drives a 2008 Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Its a SUV not quite a big as a Tahoe with three rows of seats. She purchased it new when her 1999 300M was getting long in the tooth.
It was the only car she could find that could meet her requirements of something that was not as low as the Chrysler, she liked driving and got better fuel mileage than the 300M. Since the battery is typically never either fully charged or fully discharged, in the real world battery life appears to be very good with 200,000 miles plus reported. The car accelerates very well, if you add up the horsepower of the three electric engines and the gas engine I think its over 400 hp although the computer does not let you use that much, I think Toyota rates the package at over 300hp. It gets better mileage in town than on the road and better mileage in the spring and fall. This is because the gas engine runs more in the winter and the AC (which is electric) drains the 400v battery more when the gas engine is off. Mileage in town ranges from around 23 to 27. On the road around 22. When we take it to Colorado in the summer it does well in the mountains as it will top the batteries off going down the passes. Over all its a very interesting car that has served us well. What will we replace it with? Hard to say as that will be many years off and as mentioned earlier there could be many different choices. Bill |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
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Harry... you must be a decendant of old Bill Shakespear ? |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
I am an avid fan of Top Gear (the real one) and they often preview new cars being introduced in Britian and Europe.
Last year they previewed a VW Golf with a small turbo diesel that got 75 mpg and many other cars that were in the 50mpg range. We don't have these cars for various reasons but mostly because of emissions and safety rules. Since global warming has been exposed as based on falsified documents and we have probably "over-relied" on safety, why don't we let these cars into the U.S. and save a lot of gas? JimR |
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Also, these diesels are remarkably clean, more so than most gasoline engines |
Re: Is the Hybrid really the solution?
Tony Curcio and 340 Cuda, you get it.
And Harry 6674 prius comment, you get it too. They are here to stay. And Toyota is the leader who sold ford and nissan the tech they now use, and providing jobs around our great country. I think they retooled the truck factory in Texas to provide American made hybrids too. My father fought in Korea in 1950, 51, 25th Infantry Tropic Lightning, a very tough time to be there. I wonder what his conservative mind would have thought of all this import domestic trading. He was a CFO before passing in 1978. He always drove a Ford, a domestic with Irish roots. Chris OK. |
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