The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Just saw the commercial for the new Dodge Dart first time

It looks like dodge decided not to build it and just put name plates on a neon

What a POC

We can get those from the Asian countries

Ron

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

The new Dart looks nothing like a Neon
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...SCAN0005-1.jpg
The Dart looks nothing like this.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Remember , Chrysler Corp. is now owned by Fiat .
I would expect more of same in future .

A "fantasy set-up" would be if Fiat struck a deal with Renault and put a RS27 V8 into the new Dart .

Smitty

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

A "Fantasy Setup" would be if NHRA looked at the real world and started trying to get FFFord, Chrysler and GM to start racing the turbocharged small cars in Stock that they all actually build and sell.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

And they could do that with one stroke of a pen by opening up the Classification Guide to any vehicle made by a reputable manufacturer and available to the "general public". How many combinations have been accepted in the last two years - ten? And all specially built, limited edition vehicles. You want new blood in drag racing? Allow them to race the cars they can BUY!

Lew

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

New cars are absurdly expensive, all of them are. No new racer is likely to spend that kind of money. Not even to buy a salvage car, rebuild it to a race car, and race it.

The rules of Stock Eliminator and Super Stock do not appeal to the majority of racers, especially not the majority of new racers. They like bolting on big superchargers, or swapping in crate motors or stroker motors, bolting on ported heads and intakes, installing huge cams, or adding nitrous, and going really fast. You are never going to get those people to race class cars. They're not coming. Forget it, stop worrying about it, stop trying to drag them in, they're not coming. We have rules, and they hate rules.

At some point, people need to grasp reality. Stock Eliminator and Super Stock are very limited and narrowly defined classes that appeal strictly to a select and small group of racers of a very specific type. You will never liberalize the rules of Stock Eliminator and Super Stock to draw even a small segment of "the masses". All you will ever accomplish is the complete destruction of Stock Eliminator and Super Stock. You cannot "save" Stock Eliminator and Super Stock by screwing around with the rules to loosen them to allow more modifications and allow more cars. All you will ever accomplish is driving off the core competitors, and forever changing the classes until they no longer even remotely resemble what they actually are, or rather, were.

It does not matter what "new" car you let in. It doesn't matter if you let in a Testarossa and a Toyota. You will never get all those people you think you are going to attract to race class cars. They don't like class racing. We have rules, and they hate rules.

If you want to "save" Stock Eliminator and Super Stock, the first thing to do is stop screwing with the rules and liberalizing them to allow more expensive parts and modifications, as well as bogus combinations. The next thing to do is start making it more fun and more affordable. It probably cannot be done with NHRA in charge. But that is the only way to really save the classes.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

The new Dart is basically an Alfa Romeo. In the Specs section:

"Three technologically advanced and efficient engines: 2.0L Tigershark™four-cylinder (160 hp), 1.4L Intercooled MultiAir Turbo (160 hp) and 2.4L Tigershark™ MultiAir II 4-cylinder
Unmistakable Dodge Design with Alfa Romeo®DNA "

on this website:
http://www.dodge.com/en/2013/dart/?s...nel=paidsearch

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

All I will say is careful what you wish for. Remember "wouldn't it be cool if the factories were involved in S/SS again?" Now they are and all I hear is bitching (right or wrong)
Ask for more cars in the guide (which I say yes X 1000) and then listen to the bitching when a 350 camaro is smoked by a mostly stock AWD twin turbo Taurus. (Yes they run in the 12's off the showroom floor with the A/C on and a full tank of gas)
My point is, keep the rules they way they are, fill the guide, put realistic HP ratings on them. (the biggest bone of contention)
I agree a lot of "young guys" don't want the rules etc but there is a lot of outsiders looking in that can't afford a top dollar stocker. That's why pure stock is popular (although not well enough advertised imo) How come i see half a dozen new mustangs and even a couple camaro's running at the tracks on the weekends but they don't try out Stock or pure stock or anything besides brackets?
I think some are looking at this the wrong way. When you say stocker, what do you envision? A $50,000 car, $10,000 trailer plus tow vehicle etc, etc,etc.
Ask someone in 1960 what a stocker is and they say something they drive every day and race on the weekend...like a bracket car today!
Who can take their daily driver and dump huge $$$ in it and only race it? NOBODY! So if you want in this class, you need a tow veh and all the crap that goes with it.

1. Fill the guide with everthing sold.
2. Promote Pure Stock for street driven cars with minimal mods.
3. Have a soft enough index that street cars can make their index and shoe polish race.
(like a bracket race with a minimum dial unless heads up of course)
4. Welcome the new guys and accept them.
5. Watch them move up after a few years and race in Stock or SS.

I hate imports so even if it was just detroit filling the class guide, that would work or at least show if there is an interest. New focus running a dart heads up, think that wouldn't draw attention to young guys? Yeah it's a couple of ****box fwd cars to most, but not to the owners who like them and bought them!

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Good work Alan!

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

X 2 I think Alan nailed that one on the head

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Built in Belvedere, IL

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Alan, I agree with everything you said to the letter. I'll still stand pat on what I posted.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Like Alan stated, the majority of people do not like rules. Just comments from people at a bracket race, or people at work. The first thing that is asked is how fast does the car go and how big is the engine. As soon as I start explaining the rules that we have to follow, they think how stupid are you for doing that. The money spent to go "slow" instead of throwing parts at it, is the normal mind set. I always explain class racing as a "thinking persons" class. Go fast parts is what most people relate to.

Being able to race a car that you see on the street is what has become a problem in drag racing altogether.
Sean

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

I believe what Billy and Alan is right on the money. Just one small alteration is necessary.

The imports (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and even Hyundai) need to be in there too. It still is a horsepower claim from the manufacturer in the Guide, just ask FFFord & CCChrysler.

There are way to many people that own these type of cars out there to not include them, it will increase your base by more than 15%. Hey, do you want our class to survive or not. Get real, it is 2012, this is not our little reserved sport/hobby anymore, we need to expand.

Wonder what the NeesMan could do with an Elantra 1797 cc

Ron Ortiz
U/SA #1 qualifier

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

If you talk to the import fans, they're no more interested in Stock Eliminator or Super Stock than the other guys. They don't like the rules.

We don't need to "expand". You can't please everyone, you can't be all things to all people.

What we need to do is concentrate on making and keeping the current participants happy and keeping them racing. Getting them to race more is the real goal.

People keep trying to go outside the current group and "recruit" participants by "expanding" the class guide or liberalizing the rules. It does not work that way.

The best "recruiting" tool is a satisfied happy participant. It's just like running a business. It's cheaper, easier, and better to retain a customer than it is to replace him. That happy customer is the best tool you can ever hope to have for getting new customers. It's the same with racing. If you want class racing to survive, or more to the point, recover and thrive, treat the current racers better. Give them every reason to race more. Because that racer wanting to race more is the best possible "advertisement" to draw new racers. New people are going to be interested in class racing, because they're wanting to find out why that guy can't wait to spend his time and money on a class car and going racing.

Continually altering Stock Eliminator and Super Stock in an effort to "include" or "recruit" people who not only don't race the cars already in the class, but more to the point don't like the style of racing or the rules, is pointless and futile. You do that, and at best, you risk alienating the current participants while maybe drawing 1 in 1000 possible new participants, for a short time. At worst, you start driving away the core racers, and get nothing from those you hope to attract.

If you're selling grilled beef hamburgers and fries, and have a decent number of customers, you don't switch to tofu and turkey burgers with celery sticks, hoping to gain new business. It does not make sense. It just puts you right out of business, because those customers who came for a great burger and fries are not coming back, they're going somewhere else to get what they wanted, or they go for fried chicken or pizza. You end up with a lot of tofu, turkey, and celery. And fairly good sized helping of egg on your face.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

If all of that was too long, and you don't want to read it, try this;


Remember "New Coke"?


How did that work out?


Keep trying to change Stock Eliminator and Super Stock to suit people who don't race class, and you'll end up with "New Coke".

Thing is, we ain't Coca Cola, and we won't survive the mistake like they did.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Alan is exactly right. Young people that come to look my car over at the local test n tune nights seem impressed. After talking a bit they pretty much all tell me they wouldn't want to deal with so many rules.
The ricer kids are not interested at all. NHRA had import racing at one time. 16 cars qualified over a second apart was a joke. Had wet tee shirt contests though, right? LOL

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

I'm not trying to change anything. What's wrong with updating the guide? Updates used to be the norm not the exception. Heck, if we should keep anything newer than 20 years old (none of those pesky LT1s) out of the guide then why don't we just go back to the old valvespring and cam rules and be done with it. I'm good with that.
The bottom line is, we're all gonna die of old age sooner than later (even you and me!). At that point I really don't give a rats butt what happens to Stock and SS. So keep younger people out and we won't exist, we keep getting older and dying and we won't either. Same end result.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

I never said we shouldn't update the guide.

I'm all for U.S. production cars being added as they are produced.

But you will not bring anyone to Stock Eliminator and Super Stock by adding Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Nissan, Lexus, or Infinity. Those manufacturers couldn't care less about Stock Eliminator and Super Stock, and the guys who do race those cars don't give a damn about class racing either.

I have yet to hear anyone say "I'd come race Stock Eliminator if you'd let me race my Honda". Or any of the others. Put them in the guide and what you'll get is nothing. Except maybe a few of them whining about the rules and the cost to compete. They won't like the cost of pistons, or the approval process, or finding camshaft cores, or getting the right gear made.

If you want to race Stock Eliminator, or Super Stock, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of possible combinations in the guide. Anyone who is sitting it out because they can't race their 2011 "whatsit" because it is not in the guide is not going to race class anyway. They're not coming.

By the way, it has already been stated, by people who would know, that at the very least, it is Ford that is keeping their production street cars out of the guide. It is probably true of the others as well. I'm all for putting all their production cars in the guide.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Alan's comments make a very cogent response to Mark Yacavone's thread on "Deconstructing Stock." Only NHRA can "kill" or "save" Stock. We will exist as an eliminator category only as long as they choose to allow us to do so. When we become too much of an expense or too much of a pain in their ***, we'll be gone.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

And I didn't say that we should put Toyota, Honda, etc. in the guide (not in this post anyway). All I said was it would be nice if FFFord, Chrysler and GM put the turbocharged small cars that they build and sell in the guide.
As far as racing one? I would do one but not out of my own pocket. I'm sure that the shops(or engineers) that came up with the the ringers that are in the guide got paid well to sort them out and I would expect nothing less.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

As far as that goes and I'm sure I'll get corrected if I'm wrong, the last that I knew, Mustangs were being built in Mexico, Camaros were being assembled in Canada and designed in Australia, and Challengers are for all intents and purposes the last generation C-class Mercedes.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

There is a classification guide with thousands of combinations to choose from. There are no imports. So, if I was a young person who drives a Honda, and want to run in Stock, I can't. But, I can choose an American production car before 1960. You are right, they do not care, so we turn them away. You underestimate todays young people. If they could run Stock, they would, but as you say there are rules, and they do not like those. Two edged sword. Sure, they are interested in bolt on parts, but so were you in the beginning, then you eventually progressed to Stock. The only thing I know is that Stock is getting less and less participants. No new blood except for generation racers, who also run in the Super categories, which is taboo to Stock racers, throttle stops and such. What is the big deal about an import manufacturer in Stock. It is not going to hurt anything. If the viewpoint is to not let imports in because we won't see any due to the rules, then it is the same for US production cars in the eyes of a young person. We still need to preserve the current Stock racers, but there comes a time for change, just as the Cobra Jets, Drag Paks and COPO's have changed the landscape.

The NHRA Import thing was a joke, only high money spending categories. No Stock Eliminator.

The best "recruiting" tool is a satisfied happy participant. If we were a satisfied happy customer, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I agree with you, and if it were to be true, then young people would be interested in coming over.

We are not selling tofu vs hamburgers, we are getting customers to the table, if they do not like the food then they won't come back. No reason to take burgers off the menu, but NHRA is running the restaurant.

Imports won't hurt us. There will always be bitchin about combinations. If we really wanted Stock to be successful, they would fix the AHFS, but you know about that situation.

Is there really an answer. Oh, I forgot, they are lowering the quotas, that's the solution

Ron Ortiz
U/SA Stock forever.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Not everyone wants a cookie cutter. "who can bend the parameters better" car.
There is not much "stock" on a stock eliminator car anymore.
A lot of the younger guys call that "cheating" to them stock is factory stock..
You can put $5000 into a "stock" pair of heads. Or you can bolt on a turbo or a nitrous kit for a lot less money and pick up a lot more.
I have always raced a "different" style car less keeping up with the Jones'.
When we built the hemi cars in the mid 70's we were told they could never win due to traction problems, weight distribution etc.
Stock eliminator was populated mostly by F and lower cars.
In stock (from the factory) trim a 340 Duster or Dart was almost as quick as a street hemi car.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

A few years ago, I went to a test session at MIR on a Saturday afternoon. The place was full of street folks and bracket cars. A few of the bracket guys came over. They had noticed the white vinyal letters on my windshield and wanted to check out my car. They were nice guys and very interested in the car, at first. They wanted to know if LISA was my girlfriend? I had to regroup for a second and then explained to them that LISA was actually L/SA. I gave them a quick run down on Stock Eliminator and it's restrictive nature. They said they liked bolt on power because it is cheaper and something they can do in their driveway. To most of them the hair splitting, anal rules of Stock seemed like a real drag. To each his/her own.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Billy, you skipped the part of that post where I agreed with you:
Here is the problem with foreign makes in the guide: Return on investment.

Putting those cars in the guide adds a huge amount of complexity. First, you have to develop a relationship with each OEM. Then you have to get them to give you their specs. Then you have to get them in the guide. Then you have to get them to the tech guys in the field, and get the tech guys prepared to deal with them. You're asking NHRA to spend a considerable amount of time and money. It would require them to hire more staff.

In return for that, they'll get about 0.05% increase in membership and car count. At best.

In effect, you're asking NHRA to spend at least $250K, and those foreign OEM's are not going to pony up a thin dime for NHRA.

It'll never happen.

And that is one of those rare instances where I agree with NHRA. It is not a wise investment.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

x2

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Alan has pretty much nailed it on this subject! No more to add really. Bruce, I have had the same thing happen to me many times. After explaining the basic rules to them they all say the same thing.......why? Most of us have been racing S&SS so long we never think about the rules the way a new guy does. We look at racing differently. That's just the way we do it! The younger crowd and bracket racers think we are crazy........... I do to! Jim

I thought there was a rompin' stompin' 184hp motor available in the new Dart?



.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Alan stated,
Putting those cars in the guide adds a huge amount of complexity. First, you have to develop a relationship with each OEM. Then you have to get them to give you their specs. Then you have to get them in the guide. Then you have to get them to the tech guys in the field, and get the tech guys prepared to deal with them. You're asking NHRA to spend a considerable amount of time and money. It would require them to hire more staff.

In return for that, they'll get about 0.05% increase in membership and car count. At best.

In effect, you're asking NHRA to spend at least $250K, and those foreign OEM's are not going to pony up a thin dime for NHRA.

Answer: Toyota is already putting up it's dime, just in the Pro classes, could change for sportsman if opportunity exists. They are in the business to make money, and NHRA would oblige them if it was in their interest also. You never know.

As far as the rest of your quote, pretty much dead on. And since that is the case do you really think that they are going to keep Stock around for the same reasons as you quoted.

T/D & T/S is taking over. Some time down the road we will be running "Sportsnationals" as a premier event, no more regular Nats.

If they really want to preserve us why are they lowering the quotas.

Ron Ortiz
U/SA I don't feel good

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Jim, rompin stompin and 184 HP in the same sentence?
Kinda like military intelligence, isn't it? LOL

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Yall leave the Dart alone. We sold a couple. Pretty nice car. Not a race car, maybe a gt car. I got too many, but then again........

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

How long til you squash a 6.1 in one of those.....yes I said that lol. Looking at the ones we have, even as a GT car it would be a very tight fit if it could even be done. Go figure the first two we got are stick shift turbos. Darn oil filter housing is almost bigger than each cylinder lol.

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

Mustang is built in Flat Rock Michigan at the Auto Alliance manufacturing facility. Has been since 2005. It was built at dearborn from 1964-2004 at the Rouge.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5270/5...be70b15b_m.jpg

Re: The new Dodge Dart ? not what BS
 

5.7 305 hp. A killer in the making.