Spin Control Question
 

I'm running a 6.50 index class that requires a 9" tire and I have major traction problems leaving the line. My 60's are all over the place and dependent on the track from run to run. I'm running a locked distributor at 37*. Would a super heavy spring with a super light weight kill enough low end power and still have enough advance to help down track? Would 20* @ 2500 and all in by 3500 work? Is a curve like that doable? This is a 427BBC with a 1050 carb, T-400 trans and a 488 gear. I know this isn't stock/super stock, but you guys are the sharpest group on the net so I had to ask. Thanks for any help.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

That should not be harder to hook up than a big block Chevy stocker in CC/SA. Rather than kill power, work on traction.

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Suspension details?

Re: Spin Control Question
 

I think the thing here is the quality of the track prep. I've been on tracks that will not allow me to twist my foot with tearing an ACL. This track feels nothing like that 90% of the time. Many of these guys spray some juice after they leave in order to run the number without spinning. My 60's last Saturday were:
1.494 at 5:50pm
1.430 at 6:31
1.395 at 7:48
1.467 at 8:57
1.399 at 9:59
1.629 at 10:31
The last pass I was in deep, so some of the 1.629 was due to that, but it spun real bad that run.

With all that said, I can believe the car isn't right. In fact, the front is too low or the back is too high to get good weight transfer. I just don't get how it can be so inconsistent if the car is the problem. One run the wheels are up and the next run it feels like my *** is on a vibrator.

The suspension is:
Calvert 90/10's and Santhuff uncut, light springs
Rancho adjustables, mono leaf with sliders and ladder bars

Here's a pass from a year ago when it felt decent. Left at 3,000 I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt3rpiaGD-k

Alan told me a year ago to get rid of the small front tires, but the tall tires will hit the fender bad on turns. This track requires some U turns to get on and off of it. I'm planning to lower the back.
[IMG]http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...anes102211.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Spin Control Question
 

I would also make sure your front bushings are good and loose, both afco and global west
make really good ones. You need good suspension action to make it work, the big block
stockers will go 1.28 to 1.35 no problem small blocks can see high 1.30's to low 1.40 sixty
foot times. Also remove any not required weight and get it to the back of the car should help.

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I have the stock bushings with the serrations ground off and they are loose for a factory bushing. I have stock control arms and stock ball joints also. The front end is glass and the weight was 1580/1220 with me in it.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

One mod that really freed up my front suspension (79 Camaro) was the removal of the jobber ball joints and the installation of the low friction Afco ball joints. I used to be able to pull up on a front fender and release it and it would stay halfway up. With the new joints, there is zero friction keeping the front end up. which guarantees total front end travel on the launch. Track prep is certainly key, but 6" of travel up front for a 9" slick is very helpful to keep it stuck.

I'm not sure if it was your car or not, but on that video there's still a squack as the car launches.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

Yes, it leaves and a couple feet out there's a chirp. That tells me either it unloaded or the track was not right. I think my car's front suspension is pretty loose, but I'm willing to buy some upper joints. Did you buy longer than OEM joints?

Do you measure travel by measuring from the fender lip to the ground static and then again just before the tires come off the ground?

Re: Spin Control Question
 

Ron

By looking at the picture of your car. I would drop the ladder bars down one hole in the front or lower the ride height of the rear suspension to get a little more down angle on the ladder bars in comparison to the rocker panel

OTE=Ron Gusack;340666]I think the thing here is the quality of the track prep. I've been on tracks that will not allow me to twist my foot with tearing an ACL. This track feels nothing like that 90% of the time. Many of these guys spray some juice after they leave in order to run the number without spinning. My 60's last Saturday were:
1.494 at 5:50pm
1.430 at 6:31
1.395 at 7:48
1.467 at 8:57
1.399 at 9:59
1.629 at 10:31
The last pass I was in deep, so some of the 1.629 was due to that, but it spun real bad that run.

With all that said, I can believe the car isn't right. In fact, the front is too low or the back is too high to get good weight transfer. I just don't get how it can be so inconsistent if the car is the problem. One run the wheels are up and the next run it feels like my *** is on a vibrator.

The suspension is:
Calvert 90/10's and Santhuff uncut, light springs
Rancho adjustables, mono leaf with sliders and ladder bars

Here's a pass from a year ago when it felt decent. Left at 3,000 I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt3rpiaGD-k

Alan told me a year ago to get rid of the small front tires, but the tall tires will hit the fender bad on turns. This track requires some U turns to get on and off of it. I'm planning to lower the back.
[IMG]http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/g...anes102211.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Re: Spin Control Question
 

Ron... I watched the video about 18 times starting at the 22-23 second range, seems like the rear tires yell just as the body starts to come down from the wheel stand, the transfer of weight at that point is over. I would suggest MOROSO 47195 front springs (assuming iron heads) and at least a 27 or 28 inch tall front tire. Make sure your control arms move freely (without a coil spring and shock you should be able to grab the spindle and move it up and down through it's full range effortlessly). Have you tried an 850 carburetor? Kinda' thinking a 1050 and 3000 rpm. on the starting line might be adding to the inconsistent 60's also, probably giving away a handful of torque. (just my opinion) GOOD LUCK!

Re: Spin Control Question
 

That car does not "work" at all. The car barely rotates on the launch, and it immediately falls back down.

Either it doesn't make hardly any torque, the converter is not working, or the suspension is bound up.

It looks as though the rear may be bound up, or it is too stiff. There's no separation in the rear when the car leaves.

It also appears that once the car is "loaded up" on the starting line, it only has about 1" or so of travel before the suspension tops out. Or at least before the front suspension stops working, due to a bind, or other problem.

Taller ball joints may help, they'll at least allow you to keep decent alignment.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

Okay, I need bushings, offset shafts and long upper joints, right? I hate messing with the spring. It scares me to death. Do you still like the Moog or TRW upper? I saw a post that said the Del A Lum's were not easy to install. Are the Afco's as good and easier to put in?

Re: Spin Control Question
 

Ron... The coil spring is the most important factor in your problem, what you have doesn't appear to be holding up the front end of the car. Honestly, stock coil springs would probably net you better results. It is easier to change coil springs then the trick bushings and cheaper. You don't necessarily need the trick bushings yet, use what you have in the car for now. What you have can be tweaked to get you going. For starters we need to know what have you done so far. How tight are the bolts that retain your upper and lower control arms? Are the rubber snubbers still in the upper control arms? In the rear, how tight are your leaf spring bolts? Like Alan mentioned it appears the rear is bound up. Do the leaf springs have centering pins? If so, do the lower rear end retaining plates have slots? How much clearance in the sliders?(you did say leaf spring, ladder bars and slider) My smaller carburetor comment refers to torque, heck I'd even try a good 780 vacuum. One more question, 1/4 or 1/8th mile? We will probably start asking engine questions soon. Just trying to help.

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I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make the car work on marginal tracks. I started looking at Global's control arms and then I thought about calling Kenny Keir to see what it would cost to make it right. The Santhuffs and Calverts made it leave better and the front end is much looser.

The a-arm bolts are loose and the snubbers are gone. There are no pins in the springs. The bolts in the front and rear of the springs are tight. The rear of the spring has the box, but there's a worn spot in the bottom plate of the box that the bolt bushing rides on. So it has to overcome that indent. I hope you understand what I'm saying. This is an old SRD set-up. Coil overs are on the list as soon as my guy can get me in. I've never measured the clearance in the slider. Are you talking about the gap between the spring and the plate that rides against the spring? I race both 1/8 and 1/4, but the 9" tire thing is 1/8.

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Advance this to 31 seconds. To me this is much better....Maybe not good, but better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXGT-tCz8tU

Re: Spin Control Question
 

You do not need aftermarket control arms. Save your money. They're only a deal if they are very close to the price of the bushings, shafts, and ball joints.

Honestly, we run stock small block Moog or TRW springs in the front. The key in the front, and they are not cheap, is Santhuff shocks.

If you're going to change the rear suspension, then leave it for now, don't just put coil over shocks on it, wait, save your money, put a four link under it. Otherwise, take the ladder bars and the stock springs off, and buy the springs, bars, and shocks from CalTrac. CalTrac springs, bars, and shocks will get a mid 9 second Stock Eliminator car down the track on a 9" tire. I'd rather have the CalTrac stuff than ladder bars for a small tire car.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

Front springs... Moroso 47195 Summit $119.95 or Jegs $119.99 ... Moog 6314 Rockauto $69.99 or AC Delco 45H00054 Rockauto $73.79 all sold in pairs. The choice is yours, make it and invite your biggest strongest friend over to help you install them. Buy him dinner for helping, then find yourself a set of 27" or 28". tall front tires. Charge your video camera battery get your same buddy to record your next 2-3 passes at the closest 1/8th track compare your starting line to 300ft. results from what would normally have (we are trying to move the car to that point quicker) Let us know how you make out.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

What about for a 14" tire? I run them when I'm not running the 9" class. The 14's are on the car in the second video, at MIR.

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I'm not sure you're going to find a suspension system that will work correctly with two radically different tire sizes. Can you not run the 9" tires where the 14" tires are acceptable? Or maybe a set of 10" tires?

I think once you get it right, you probably will not need the 14" tires.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

Alan is right, besides the 14s will slow you down.

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The trouble with the 9's in a 1/4 mile race is the rpm's that I'd like to avoid.

I need the car to hook for the 9" class so I'd rather have a suspension set-up for that. I've got a few disadvantage in the class. I run a 400 where most others have glides. I'm a foot braker and they all have t-brakes. I'm all motor and they are NOS. It's a .400 tree so I deep stage to get a good light and never know exactly where I'm at. Other than those few things, the car is perfect for the class.

The 14's are for bracket racing and I've adopted the bracket racers mentality....Less power and more tire. Some of the tracks I've run on are very slippery. However, 12" tires would allow me to get the back down. Wouldn't that be a major step toward keeping the weight on the rear?

Kenny Keir likes the solid aluminum or steel bushings. What's the consensus on them?
Can lower bushings be installed without taking the control arm off?

I appreciate the advice and if you can tolerate it, keep giving it.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

You can get a fairly tall 12" tire to keep the RPM down for the 1/4. We run 10.0 at 129 or so with a 5.00 gear and a 9x30 Hoosier radial, even with the converter being too loose, we're at 7850 or so, and the radials do not grow.

I'd run the Del-A-Lum bushings, the Moog ball joints (long upper), and the Moog upper shafts with the big offset.

I think if you get the car set up right you can get a decent light on a .400 tree without deep staging. That car should go 1.28 in the 60', and when it does it'll leave hard enough to cut a light.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

Global West kit ETK 6769 with bushings, offset shaft and joints, but I can't find the length of the joints. The Moog joints seem to be 3/8 long, whereas some others are advertised as 1/2 longer than OEM.

The only way this car could go 1.28 is we put one of your engines in it.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

Ron, with all the limits on my engines in Stock, there's no reason you shouldn't make 100 more HP.

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My limitations are that I'm using parts that I have available and most are very old. My stuff is junk by today's standards. I'm still looking into a new rotating assembly to try to get compression down and make roughly the same power. The Wallace calculator puts me at about 580hp.

Do you know if the BJ's in the Global West kit are long?
How long do I want? I see 3/8, 1/2 and 1" BJ's advertised.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

The 1/2" over should be fine, but you can run the 1" over.

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Does the car have drop spindles? I just quickly skimmed through the posts and a seen that you had not cut the springs but the nose of the car is way in the weeds. Measure from the fender to the floor at ride height and then jack it up and just before the wheels come of the ground take a measurement and tell us what you got.

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One more question....you said you have leaf springs with sliders and ladder bars. Im assuming you have replaced the rear shackle with an afco style slider but you didnt say anything about having floaters on the rear end. are the leaf springs bolted solid to the housing or do you have floaters? At this point from the video the front end looks like its loose but lacks some travel and the rear end looks like it bounces on the tire when it leaves which would tell me the rear suspention is bound up. Have you ever thought about removing the ladder bars and just trying calvert stuff or even a J bolt style traction bar?

Re: Spin Control Question
 

Spindles are stock. Springs are Santhuff's lightest spring.
Travel measures about 7".
I lose lots of travel when I come up so high on the converter. Lower RPM means more travel but the light suffers.
Floaters on the rear and a box at the rear of the spring. The track on the box has a detent from the years of use. I've looked into making it a coil over with ladder bars or possibly a 4 link.
I've added 100 lbs in the trunk.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

Get rid of the sliders on the back of the spring and put the shackles back on until you put the coil overs on. I had the same issue with the sliders on my car. As long as something is not bound up in the rear suspension the leaf springs will work just as good. I did not see any improvement in performance when I took the leafs off of my car and installed coil overs. There was a little weight savings though. It's all about the geometry on the ladder bar set up. Once you find the sweet spot your car will start working

Re: Spin Control Question
 

Mike, I thought the slider helped keep the rear from binding. I have a lot of options to sort through. Ladder bar, 4 link, or Cal Tracs.

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Cal-trac, cheapest , easy to work on, they can walk you through the prosess. There are many Nova's running them, just look at the pictures posted on this site.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

If money was a non factor, would Ca'-tracs be your first choice?

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Yes ! Just look, pictures abound all over the net, many bracket cars and Stockers run them. The reason ? they work. Add them and get your front end to work then hang on !

Re: Spin Control Question
 

With ladder bars and leaf springs, the rear end housing must be mounted in "floaters" in order for the leaf springs and ladder bars to work without binding.

If you do not have something like this : http://www.competitionengineering.co...?CatCode=10047
on your car, and you're running ladder bars and leaf springs, your rear suspension simply does not work.

Given the choice, I'd never bother with ladder bars again, ever. If I wanted full aftermarket rear suspension, it would be a four link with a wishbone locater and coil over shocks.

For a car like yours, if you do not intend to go faster than 9.30 or so, and you want to run smaller tires, say 9" and 12" slicks, the by all means I'd put a complete Cal Tracs system under it, their leaf springs, their bars, their mounts, and their shocks.

Sure, full aftermarket suspension is the ultimate, if it is allowed, and you're going really quick, it's the thing to have.

But you're running in the mid nines, and you're running 9" tire classes at times. I would not go to the expense of a four link for that.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

While my race vehicle isn't comparable to yours, what was the same is I had ladder bars installed on mine and was using the Competition Engineering housing floaters which did allow the rear suspension plenty of movement (no binding)....I had issues with control and any track that wasn't perfectly flat the rear of the vehicle would " float around" and actually steer me where ever it wanted.....very unnerving.....after a couple years of this I went to Comps "Slide-a-Links" (similar in theory to "Caltracs").....Night and Day difference, didn't even feel like the same vehicle.....Caltracs Work.....bottom line, put the system in and dial in the rest of your setup and don't look back......

D L Rambo.....Stock/1300

Re: Spin Control Question
 

I do have the floaters and I grease them. What if I want to stay with a 13 or 14 inch tire, will a Cal Trac work with them?

The thing that turned me off to CalTracs was a video of a rear rotating what I thought was a long way on a car with Cal Tracs. Paste this in and have a look. http://flic.kr/p/cfLT6W
Here's another shot from the back. http://www.flickr.com/photos/simpkinsfamily/7387114350/
Isn't that a Cal trac system?
I can't see how my set-up could possibly rotate that much. It looks bad to me

Re: Spin Control Question
 

Ron, there are big block Chevy cars that weight 3400# going mid nines on 9" tires with the CalTracs setup. It works, there's not a lot more to say.

I have no idea how the car in the video is set up.

On a 9" tire we're carrying the front wheels all the way to high gear consistently with CalTracs and the rest of the setup I described. If we can't hook, no one can. There are big tire cars that will go home if we so much as spin the tires a 1/2 turn.

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Thanks Alan, I'll call them tomorrow. Hopefully they'll work with the slider box currently on the frame rail. Plus I'll need a couple perches.

Re: Spin Control Question
 

Whats the saying....you can lead the horse to water but you cant make him drink....LOL. Out of the 30+ posts in this thread, 15 of them are experienced racers telling you to get rid of the sliders and run all the calvert stuff. Set it up like a stock eliminator car and you wont be dissapointed. Set it up they way they tell you to and you will never ever have a problem.....after 5 years of beating my springs up I went under the car and re adjusted to bars per calverts spec and the car is leaving harder than it was prior to the adjustment. Good luck!!

PS they have a real nice set of perches that I would recomend you but.....way beefier than a moroso mount.