Bring back super/mod...
The old s/m class was a good entry class to mod/elim.
Bring back the class with some rules that can be some what affordable. 10.5 rear tire not 10.5w cast iron head any cast intake no sheet metal. 4-speed trans (like the old days) single 4 bbl carb 850 or less. porting allowed but no welding or epoxy A B C classes like before. Just some ideas... Hammer |
Re: Bring back super/mod...
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Them were the days, with the novas,camaros,mavricks and so on. had a nove back in the mod days.
bob lasko |
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I agree fully! I miss modified production in any form.
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I agree with the idea. Make it cheap by making it very limited. Cubic inch and wts. One carb size, No sheet metal manifolds, No Box, Stick or Auto doesnt matter . Stock Crank sizes. Flat top Pistons. Trophy Only prize except contingency. List the bodies legal, Duster, Nova, Camaro. Cage, 4 link, 9 inch rear or 12 bolt or Dana.
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Sounds fun. The autos don't need the weight subsidy though.
We ran a SS/BS 69 Camaro in the 90's with a stick. Everything in that car was used except the gas and oil. It was still more expensive than a stocker. I love the idea, but it won't be cheap. |
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And no FWD-conversion ''jellybean'' cars.
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I agree totally. Not that I'm smack dab in the middle of a 10.5 60 Corvette project, but I love the little motors and manual transmissions. I love Super/Stock and Stock, but if you watch the crowd reaction of, say a 10 Cobalt and then a crowd reaction to a moidified Chevy II or Corvette yankin gears....it's just more exciting. And that's what folks watch racing for....excitment! IMO. I would pay double to watch Modified and/or some type of drag racing where the driver actually did something between the starting line and 1250 feet. I did the S/G stuff, delay box, trans brake, throttle stop, let go of the button, then ride along, manage the finish line and that's it. I belive the enhancements mentioned do indeed provide more consistency. I will be using these in my SS/LA entry. But would love to see the driver be responsible for more of the run. No T-Brake, no air shift. No electronics, no Pneumatics. Just my opinion folks
Wade Mahaffey |
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Mike!!
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what? no amc's!?!?! how about a 410 cid limit? no clutchless transmissions? iron heads? |
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http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...st390/Jack.jpg |
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I'm all in!
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what was the suspension setups of these cars?
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Nope Fadely Indy 1977
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Come on Mike...no FWD-conversion "jelly bean" cars. The sanction body wants new cars, not antiques. While the idea is great, it will never happen, but it is fun to dream. |
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It may be a dream but a definite "nitch" in class racing not being used to get new racers.
Jim Boburka and I had proposed similar Spec car 4or 5 years ago to combat costs and "factoring" issues. Name the motor in ANY legal SS or S chassis. That would cut costs for current racers. They could move to this class with next cheaper engine build and not have to replace their car. Younger could purchase retiring cars. I bet if NHRA had a big money company approach with a "sealed motor" to help in that area it would work. Admit it the aged racer population is dwindling and entry level is not Stk or SS. It could all become .90 brackets and that would be sad end of heads up racing in my humble opinion. Consider this fact, I think true Heads up racers would even accept a ONE brand motor class if it cut the cost to 1/3 and made it entry level. This would be about survival of Heads up and racers in general. Chrysler is fine with its AH program if you can afford them. Many other racing organizations have gone to more generic car and compete on DRIVER skills, Tuning skills. ETC. Its time to rethink fun,, driving and tuning with less $ in the equation. |
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could be done with minimum tech officials...and not much for teardowns. whatcha think? |
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ROTFLOL (now there is some hip language ;))
Cheap heads-up:eek: That's like: jumbo shrimp Customer service Or government assistance Heads up will not be cheap. No matter what rules and regulations you implement. That only makes it more expensive. The "cheapest" heads up would probably be a sealed crate engine class but still won't be cheap. It's always the same story. New class, new people, lots of interest at first, early adopters tend to be dominant, money spent to gain an edge, new comers aren't as competitive, politics, whining, participation drops, people complain more, Customers/racers/spectators/sponsors lose interest(due to money, new or lack of technolgy) develop new class, old class dies. It's a viscous circle. I keep hearing about the "good ole days" to me it is the "good ole days" in the here and now. Some peoples calanders must still read 1970s in there house. Things evolve or they die. Classes come and go, it's the normal ebb and flow of life. It's creative destruction when we lose one and gain another. If there is a lot of interest in bringing back the class by all means bring it back or something similar. I think that's great. Personally, if the goal is to get young guys(20-30s) to come race, this is not it. It won't be cheap and it does not relate to anything they own. Most drag racers start out in their street cars that they drive everyday to work because when you're young and just starting out you can't afford multiple cars and expensive toys(well unless you use debt but that means you won't as much disposable income to go race every month that requires travel) You want a younger generation to come race? Step 1:Teach them finiacial responsibility Step 2: Expose them to the sport in general. Step 3: Let them design a class that appeals to them. Wether that is Evoulution of an exsisting class or creation of a new one. "Let the dog wag the tail, not the tail wag the dog" Just my 10 cents the 2 cents was free. |
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Great ideas...but maybe a bit too late? We're well into the 21st Century...and we didn't have half the electronic and computer innovations back then...as we do today.
I'm speaking in terms as they apply to everyday life..as well as automotive and race-car applications. The current young male...(and female) is a bit more familiar with pushing a button...than turning wrenches...Tatoos and body-piercing dominate the social scheme....and are important to them.... Can we get some...to turn into gear-heads? Don't know? Do they know...or are willing to learn carburetors...(I'm assuming you'd want to see Holley carbs on these engines.) OR would EFI's...tuned by laptops...be more relevant for the "new-blood" racers...would costs "spiral" if these were allowed? Most of the younger "gearheads" I've seen are familiar with the "tuner" section of the sport....I think that means European and Asian cars, right? Not many I've seen are doing American V-8's...but there are some....COSTS ...I guess are a big factor with that.... Not sure on that mention of dual-plane manifolds only...PLENTY of single-plane intakes out there..... Should we ask the question here...are we racing MORE now...and enjoying it LESS today...than in years past? Mr. Johns...don't ask me about the "calendar" thing....I'm 60+...and have been living in the PAST...for years! |
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360 +.080 over CID naturally aspirated small block only limit
A/SM = 7lb per CID B/SM = 8lb per CID C/SM = 9lb per CID 800 cfm carb limit Any factory produced iron head Porting and polishing allowed Any piston, cam, crank and rods allowed Any American made body allowed. Any transmission. Allow weight to be added or removed to make any of the three classes. . |
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Great post!
QUOTE=D.Johns;340833]ROTFLOL (now there is some hip language ;)) Cheap heads-up:eek: That's like: jumbo shrimp Customer service Or government assistance Heads up will not be cheap. No matter what rules and regulations you implement. That only makes it more expensive. The "cheapest" heads up would probably be a sealed crate engine class but still won't be cheap. It's always the same story. New class, new people, lots of interest at first, early adopters tend to be dominant, money spent to gain an edge, new comers aren't as competitive, politics, whining, participation drops, people complain more, Customers/racers/spectators/sponsors lose interest(due to money, new or lack of technolgy) develop new class, old class dies. It's a viscous circle. I keep hearing about the "good ole days" to me it is the "good ole days" in the here and now. Some peoples calanders must still read 1970s in there house. Things evolve or they die. Classes come and go, it's the normal ebb and flow of life. It's creative destruction when we lose one and gain another. If there is a lot of interest in bringing back the class by all means bring it back or something similar. I think that's great. Personally, if the goal is to get young guys(20-30s) to come race, this is not it. It won't be cheap and it does not relate to anything they own. Most drag racers start out in their street cars that they drive everyday to work because when you're young and just starting out you can't afford multiple cars and expensive toys(well unless you use debt but that means you won't as much disposable income to go race every month that requires travel) You want a younger generation to come race? Step 1:Teach them finiacial responsibility Step 2: Expose them to the sport in general. Step 3: Let them design a class that appeals to them. Wether that is Evoulution of an exsisting class or creation of a new one. "Let the dog wag the tail, not the tail wag the dog" Just my 10 cents the 2 cents was free.[/QUOTE] |
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Test and tune nights where people "race" seems to be the money maker at local tracks.
Why? Low cost few rules, Channel that into few rules, low cost, create education style with TECH schools involved , will help train mecanics for future. Jim Wahl.. Good rules for us prior racers but expense? I like the scope to see flat piston, Scope to see the rods via hole in pan. Crank the same. Spec, sealed motor still simplest. Any engine shop willing to do up 4 or 8 sealed spec motors? LOW COST simple stuff?Maybe rely on Tech Schools to build their own. One motor like formula V, Ford, etc in road racing still an idea. |
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What makes you think this idea was to bring in younger racers? To hell with them! The idea is to bring back a class that was as exciting to watch as it was to race! From you're post I assume you weren't around in the "good ole days", if you were you would know they were "good". We could race on a decent budget and still be competitive at most races. It's a great idea but if you stick to the iron head theory chevy has the advantage, they make too many different heads with different valve angles, placement and sizes, so a decision would have to be made to make the heads available fit the lowest common denominator head. thought: 1967 notch back Cuda, W2 340, hemi crash box, 9" rear, all steel with fibreglass hood and scoop......just a thought. JimR |
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I would love to see a nostalgia pro stock series formed.
Go back to 1970, look up the rules for the time(updates for safety of course), any year before Lenco transmissions, 4 speed only, clutches! YIKES!Back when you could tell from the stands what make the car was! Start bangin' some gears baby! I know it would tough but you don't know if you don't try. |
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Alot of good ideas here, I like the spec/sealed engines. If you could have it policed by tech personel. I brought that up a year or so ago, and everyone laughed. I don't think you can bring a younger generation into the sport, unless you make it more affordable. As you can see everyone is leaving the sport because of the overall cost. The spec/sealed engines would be the main big ticket item to reduce cost.
Wade Mahaffey |
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If anyone has connections with a sponsor who might GAIN from this they could support it as a sponsor through NHRA and then it would be done. How about JEGS engine service to create the Sealed motors? Anyone else? Then everyone is the same. Shop wins, Racers win, NHRA wins as more people participate, Rules easier, Tracks get younger groups who might "ATTEND" events in major cities. Local tracks could have these cars run if enough were built....
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Didn't nhra try the tuner car deal at one
time and all ended up as a circus side show They thought more of the bands than the racing. Hammer |
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Obviously, my response was slanted towards the entry-level NEW younger enthusiast who we would hope would come aboard and give this a try and join the ranks of drag-racers....
Apologies for my assessment of the younger generation....but that's what I see... Let's talk about the proposed rules..... I like the idea...it's fundamentally SOUND...given the current state of the economy.... YES....it would have to be POLICED....so the "idea" wouldn't get out of hand....PLEASE don't let what happened to Stock Eliminator....with all the "enhancements" and "whining".....happen HERE! BUT...we ALL know....POLICING requires educated tech inspectors...and ENFORCEMENT....and we've beat up on that subject for many years now.... I remember when the econo-dragster class was introduced...initially we saw simple front-motored dragsters with 350 ci Chevies, Powerglides, and Holley carbs...just bolted together and run....we all know what happened to those classes eventually.... Think that the original super-mod classes went the same way as the years progressed... LOTS of innovation...at a cost...$$$$$$$$$$$$$! Here's my .02 on the rules: How about a 375 ci engine size limit...and also a 750-cfm carb limit...so that the class doesn't turn into a large displacement/large carb "torque haven." And to encourage one's tuning ability....ALMOST like Jr. Stock coming back..... How about ONE simple class...instead of weight-breaks? And would a SMALLER engine be CHEAPER to build? Just asking........ |
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How about a 9" tire rule also...or too limiting? Just thinking of ways to keep costs down......
Keep in mind tires are much better today....and there are some mid-SS class cars running FAST on 9-inches today...... |
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Folks, anyone think using a ford, a chrysler and a chevy can be fair? It would appeal to a couple more people but..... Too open rules means too many complaints, too much controversy. Look at the New SS and Stk cars. Apples racing oranges and onions.
The more I look at the issues, the more I believe a One motor, One carb, One trans ,in any SS or Stk chassis would be easiest. Of course chassis could be an issue also with the "jelly bean" cars available out there but the COST of the car would exceed the motor and should help limit their use for the people you want to attract. Chevy II , camaro, Duster, Mustang, all same wt/Cubic inch . Simple to buy for and tuning and driving becomes Very important. Thoughts? ( a365 inch of any motor could work... but then Heads, Block, Pistons becomes issue) |
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There is no such thing as cheap heads-up. The class may be designed to be cheap entry level but guess what we are all competitive personality people. Guys will be willing to spend the money to find anything that gives them an edge. And if the other competitors aren't willing to spend the money/time/development then they will fall behind and eventually won't want to come. Creating a new class(or in this case possibly reviving an old one) who ever gets in on the ground floor of the class or particular combination has an advantage and also gets sucked into spending the money little by little over the year(death by 1,000cuts) instead of the huge cost to build one from scratch with all the tricks of the trade.
Speed cost money, How fast do you want to go? Faster then the other person in the other lane? You better have talent(driving,building,thinking) and/or money. Everyone wants cheap, a lot of people want heads-up. These two items do not mix and emulsify. Cheap, fast or safe. Pick 2 |
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I still think the brodix spec head for mopar, chevy, and ford is the way to go. It works at Knoxville Ia. And if a head is suspect, send it back to brodix for final say. The racers could tech the class. I don't mind the ladder bar thing, but the 9in. deal would be tough because most cars are tubbed and narrowed where that would not be feasible. I like the 72, and older car idea. We have a cobalt, and a 67 nova, and at a race, I think the older car garners more attention. We had this very discussion on insidecompracing.com. Look at all the older backhalf cars just sitting, or bracket racing. The head would be easy to police. I say minimum weight, 3000 lb. A B and C. Must actually clutch and shift. Make the driver a huge part of the eqation. I have actually talked to Dave Rodder about this, and he said if one of the HRA's would approach them with it, they would be glad to assist. Chris Paget of comp cams thought it was a great idea.
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Motor thoughts: CHeck the Jegs site for two sealed chevy motors used in cheap round track classes
Pull up circle class on the yellow bar on the left of page.... |
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But anytime you have a sealed motor, one sealed motor will be better then another. If you take the racers mind out of the equation, it will not survive. I say have a bounty on the head, and any racer who wants to trade heads, puts up $500, and switches. That should cure it. Let the short block be the mind game. It would still be substantially cheaper then a comp mptor. Run off pro tree also. What say you? I do believe NHRA is looking at this to get cars back in sportsman.
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One of you rich guys want to lay out about $500K to one of the sanctioning bodies. At that time they will be more than happy to listen to your proposal for a new class. Anything less and your just wasting their time.
If you really want to make something like this work, start it at your local track and see if it will grow. You must do the ground work first, prove it will get participation, and then see if the sanctioning bodies have room for another class. |
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We did exactly this at Bethany Mo. It did work. We had fifty some odd cars, and crowds ranging from 400, to 1000 each night. Why ain't it still open you ask? Because 4 to five people got their panties bunched up, because they weren't competitive, and caused so much trouble, I closed the track. It was not ever my living. I run a construction company for that. If I'd been sanctioned by NHRA, or IHRA, it would have still been open. It was just a pain to hear it every week-end, and I chose not to run. What it boils down to, is the owner won too much. That would not be the problem with an NHRA, or IHRA. But we had participation. Tried to do it at Eddyville, same people threw a wrench in it, and I backed away.
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Now we are talking. Modified Production racing was the most fun you could have with your clothes on. The spectators and racers loved it. There is no sound like a small block through the lights at 10 grand or better. The old cut gear 4-speed with the dana 60. The wheels up is the show. Even today, everyone likes the wheel stands.
Let's see, I got a camaro, 35 old small block engines, untold cast iron heads, don't know the count of intakes and holley carbs, steel flywheels and muncie "rock crusher" 4-speed still got the 9" hurst competition plus shifter on it, thats it. No buttons to push, maybe lineloc, just strap in, pull the line, put it on the floor and let the clutch out. We got to get working on this. |
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It truly does work. Could be worked in to divisionals, or national opens. The trick would be to advertise it a year ahead of time, and give people time to adjust. Then, one idea, is limit to one single disc clutch, no computers, stud mounted rockers, except for mopar, no titanium driveline parts, carbon fiber limited to driveshaft only for safety reasons. I don't personally care, these are just ways to keep costs down.
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Alow a Jerico or Gforce clutch assisted 4 speed. NHRA Stock eliminator rear suspension. No hood scoops or cowl hoods
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