It's Time to combine the Index
It's time for NHRA to combine the index for Auto and Stick classes in both stock and super stock. I'm running a stick car in super stock and i ran against an auto car in time trials, we both run in GTE. my index is 10.50 and his is 10.65 !! fair? Hell no and i have seen worse!
1. combine both auto and stick index 2. no weight breaks or penalty for auto or stick 3. keep it simple and fair Thanks...Luke SS 311 |
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Lets fight to get class winners in the eliminator, and get rid of the combo classes. |
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[QUOTE=Tony Janes;344635]It is very fair, that is part of a handicap eliminator.[/QUOTE
you're right tony. I / we are being handicapped for running a stick...Luke SS 311 |
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Makes no sense to me, you do not have to run the automatic car heads up.
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Don't forget some of the stick horsepower ratings are less than the same combo with an auto. Thus the index difference. At least with my combo in SS.
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The reason some of the HP ratings are less for the stick cars is because less people race stick cars. It's a lot easier to be "king of the Hill" in a Stick class as the classes are so small. You may not be pushed very hard to go any faster.
The reason auto cars have higher HP ratings is because the class is inundated with automatic cars. More hot dogs with ego's equal more nips at the AHFS. One MAJOR reason guys don't race stick cars is because they loose qualifying positions by racing a stick! Rob Youngblood can tell you how many sales he's lost because of this! As I said in a recent post, SS/JA vs SS/J; Don Little vs. Rob Youngblood. Both seem to run comparable ET's in qualifying yet Don will qualify in the top 5 while Rob will qualify 10+ positions down the ladder. Same HP rating, same weight (or at least within a few pounds). Is that reasonable? And some of you think this is nothing more than a bracket race so qualifying means little to you. Well, there are some of us that still adhere to the calling that this is a performance based class and qualifying higher than lower means something! Now, I have proposed this on this board more than once. Sticks and autos should be combined. I have also proposed that points should be awarded for top 10 & #1 qualifying positions. That would encourage some of you to let loose of the throttle stops every now and again. If that were the rule, that there are points on the line, then why should there be a disparity between indexes on stick vs. auto? I'll soon be back in D/S. Last issue of Nitro Joes (which every class racer should subscribe too!), Joe lists 8 competitors in D/S. Then look at D/SA. There's 63 in that class! Combine them and now we have 71 cars in a class and one less class. In D/S the two fast guys are Duzac & Byrd @ 10.35 each (wow!) but the two fast guys in D/SA are VanLant & Hill @ 10.51 each. Apparently there's an advantage to the stick there. But look at C/S vs. C/SA. In C/S the two fast guys are Wenzel & McNeish @ 10.51 each but the two fast guys in C/SA are Dean & Ratcliff both @ 10.37 each. Apparently the auto has an advantage here. In fact, I just went over all the Stock runs. Of the 25 classes from AA/S through W/S and AA/SA through AA/SA and looking at only the fastest in each class, the autos win 17-8! Stick wins in: B/S, D/S, G/S, O/S, Q/S, T/S & W/S (there are no R/S & U/S racers listed as participants). I didn't count the FWD classes. So if your crying that the stick has a huge advantage, it just doesn't appear that way. Combine the classes and I personally could care less how they split the Index. Take the high, take the low or split the difference. One way or the other, NHRA will say the AHFS will take care issues. NHRA would cut 25 classes and save on trophies. I think this would also eliminate the "Stick / auto combos" which I'm still not sure what I think of that program. But that's for another thread. More: Of the 27 classes SHOWN: 7 are the same, stick / auto index 7 are .05 apart 6 are .10 apart 3 are .15 apart 1 IS .20 apart 2 ARE .25 apart So in Stock at least, there's not the big gap of stick / auto indexes to be concerned about. Unless your one of the (very) few with sticks in the slowest classes. Here's the index table: Stock Indexes Last Update: 9/4/2012 Class 1/4 Mile 1/8 Mile AA/S 10.00 06.50 - Auto is SAME A/S 10.95 07.06 - Auto is .05 SLOWER B/S 11.20 07.21 - Auto is .15 SLOWER C/S 11.35 07.31 - Auto is .05 SLOWER D/S 11.50 07.39 - Auto is .05 SLOWER E/S 11.65 07.47 - Auto is .05 SLOWER F/S 11.80 07.57 - Auto is .05 SLOWER G/S 11.90 07.62 - Auto is .10 SLOWER H/S 12.00 07.68 - Auto is .15 SLOWER I/S 12.20 07.79 - Auto is .10 SLOWER J/S 12.35 07.89 - Auto is .10 SLOWER K/S 12.55 08.00 - Auto is .10 SLOWER L/S 12.70 08.08 - Auto is SAME M/S 12.85 08.18 - Auto is SAME N/S 12.95 08.22 - Auto is .05 SLOWER O/S 13.10 08.32 - Auto is .05 SLOWER P/S 13.35 08.46 - Auto is .10 SLOWER Q/S 13.65 08.62 - Auto is .15 SLOWER R/S 13.95 08.79 - Auto is .10 SLOWER T/S 14.40 09.04 - Auto is SAME U/S 14.65 09.17 - Auto is .20 SLOWER V/S 15.25 09.51 - Auto is .25 SLOWER W/S 16.40 10.17 - Auto is .25 SLOWER FS/S 09.90 06.44 - HUH? AAA/S 09.70 06.32 - Auto is SAME BB/S 10.30 06.68 - Auto is SAME CC/S 10.60 06.86 - Auto is SAME |
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Here is the Super Stock Indexes:
Super Stock Indexes Last Update: 9/4/2012 Class 1/4 Mile 1/8 Mile SS/AH 09.30 06.08 SS/A 09.65 06.28 - Auto is .25 QUICKER SS/B 09.90 06.44 - Auto is SAME SS/C 10.05 06.53 - Auto is SAME SS/D 10.20 06.62 - Auto is SAME SS/E 10.25 06.65 - Auto is .10 SLOWER SS/F 10.35 06.71 - Auto is .10 SLOWER SS/G 10.45 06.77 - Auto is .10 SLOWER SS/H 10.50 06.80 - Auto is .10 SLOWER SS/I 10.50 06.83 - Auto is .20 SLOWER SS/J 10.80 06.98 - Auto is .20 SLOWER SS/K 11.00 07.10 - Auto is .25 SLOWER SS/L 11.25 07.24 - Auto is .20 SLOWER SS/M 11.60 07.45 - Auto is .25 SLOWER SS/N 11.95 07.65 - Auto is .20 SLOWER SS/O 12.20 07.79 - Auto is .10 SLOWER SS/P 12.50 07.97 - Auto is .15 SLOWER GT/A 10.00 06.50 - Auto is .10 SLOWER GT/B 10.10 06.57 - Auto is .15 SLOWER GT/C 10.20 06.62 - Auto is .20 SLOWER GT/D 10.35 06.71 - Auto is .15 SLOWER GT/E 10.50 06.80 - Auto is .15 SLOWER GT/F 10.60 06.86 - Auto is .20 SLOWER GT/G 10.75 06.95 - Auto is .15 SLOWER GT/H 10.85 07.01 - Auto is .20 SLOWER GT/I 10.95 07.06 - Auto is .25 SLOWER GT/J 11.05 07.13 - Auto is .25 SLOWER GT/K 11.10 07.16 - Auto is .35 SLOWER GT/L 11.30 07.27 - Auto is .25 SLOWER GT/M 11.50 07.39 - Auto is .25 SLOWER Of the 30 classes shown: 3 are the same, stick / auto index 6 are .10 apart 5 are .15 apart 7 are .20 apart 7 are .25 apart 1 is .35 apart SS/AH is one class, stick & auto COMBINED. |
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Thanks Jeff very informative and proves my point...Luke SS 311
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None of that is going to happen"
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I would love to see it combined! More heads up racing, more exciting to watch and participate..
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Combining Classes should have been done when they hardend the indexes, YES-YES combine sticks and auto's!!!!!! way more fun to watch and alot harder to hide your ride from heads-up runs.
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hmmmm
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I wonder what other Stick drivers think. I spoke to another stick driver and he agreed...Luke SS 311
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Combine! With today's converter and automatic technology, there is not really a gap in performance, save for a few odd-ball cases.
Evan |
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I think there are a lot of people out there with automatic LS1s that wouldn't be happy about racing heads up with their stickshift counterparts, spotting them 230 lbs in B. This is one of the biggest examples, but there are some more like that. If they combine the sticks and autos, they need to make them the same HP, but then that would screw all the guys with powerglides. It sounds like a lot of work, so I doubt NHRA would want to do it.
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In 2013, it will be OK for anyone running a 3 speed automatic transmission to run a 2 speed trans and if you have a 2 speed you will be able to run a 3 speed.
With rules like this,might as well run everyone in the same class with the same horsepower rating. |
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What index will the combined cars get, the stick or automatic?
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As I suggested a few posts down, Personally I wouldn't care if they took the slower or quicker or meet in the middle.
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According to Nitro Joe's Stats (from 6/13/12 issue)
Stock / Stick racers: 115 Stock / Auto racers: 836 (RWD classes counted) Only 13.76% of NHRA racers are Stock / Stick RWD Super Stock / Stick racers in SS/A through SS/O: 29 Super Stock / Auto in SS/AA through SS/PA racers: 221 Only 13.12% of NHRA racers are Super Stock / Stick RWD Super Stock / Stick racers in GT/A through GT/M: 31 Super Stock / Auto racers in GT/AA through GT/MA: 260 Only 11.92% of NHRA racers are Super Stock GT / Stick RWD RWD classes that differentiate between transmissions counted; i.e., not showing SS/AH or Modified. I also didn't show SS/AAA or SSA/A or the truck classes because I don't even know what transmissions are allowed in these classes. Also realize these numbers are higher because many racers, both stick & auto bounce up or down a class. Bottom line, less than 14% of all Stock or Super Stock racers use a manual transmission. |
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I somewhat agree with this. My son mentioned this at indy when he said we run about the same as the GT/CA cars but qualify much lower. I told him, the only way we could run with them now is the difference in the horsepower factor. It seems like 3 years ago they stopped hitting the horsepower on the sticks when an automatic car triggered it. I'm glad for that. With torque multiplication, trans brakes and radials, autos have taken the lead. If you look at indy qualifing sheets this year, we are near the top in GT stick. The same guy built all the engines in my cars and the class winner in GT/CA I say back off the GT stick indexes .1 and see if we stack up any better. Joining stick and autos will do away with sticks. Why do you think a regular superstock runs GT? Answer: GT index helps them protect their horsepower factor, because it's lower. Ernie Neal SS 354 |
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./,
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SS/AH is a combined auto/stick class and the sticks have the auto's covered.
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Splitting cars up according to transmission type in a "factory Built" environment is not drag racing. It's like listening to a pair of players on "Pinks" fighting over a car lengths because one guy has a Dominator carb and the other guy has a NOS shot.
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This post has some great comments, both pro and con. After reading, I do have one question...............How much of this really matters on Sunday for the real race, for the little gold man that says "Stock Winner", the purse and the decal money and the points (if you care about points)??
The class winner will be the racer who drives the softest combo or who has the most money in his car. Thats not a race, thats a tax bracket. |
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As I remember the stick AH cars now are the same
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My bad. They must have changed it, as I just looked on the NHRA site and both are 505 @ 5.98
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Not at this time. The rule only applies to automatics.
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Not that I communicate with every stick racer in the country but of those that I have spoken to, I've never heard one dissenting opinion on this.
I did ask Pat Cvengros @ NHRA two days ago; why or why not is the NHRA on board with this idea? He replied that it has been proposed by the S/SS representatives and a majority were not in favor of combining sticks & auto's. Funny, nobody asked me and I haven't had a lapse in membership since 1992. |
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I think the stick and auto's combined would be cool! Especially if it makes class racing more prestigious again and brings in more class paying contingency sponsors. NHRA just needs to do like others have pointed and keep it simple, same hp ratings, and run at the same weights. If they combined and had everyone run at the auto hp ratings and auto indexes it would only affect less than 14% of the racers running stk and SS. Other than 14% more cars in the classes it wouldn’t affect the auto guys, and what do they care if a few stick cars are in their class everyone knows you can't win in a stick car.
As for the auto being better or worse than a stick for a certain combination, deal with it. Yes right now the stick cars have the auto cars covered in SS/AH but when Westcott was running with the automatic the auto cars were faster. If you think the stick is faster man up and put in a stick, if you think the auto is faster and want to turn in your man card go get an automatic. I don’t think combining the two would do away with the sticks. Pretty much everyone with a stick car right now wouldn’t change if they were given an auto trans. |
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If they combine, do you allow the stick only cars to run an auto and vice versa
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No...A '67-'69 Z-28, '69-'70 Boss 302, etc., didn't come with an auto and they shouldn't race with an auto. This shouldn't be viewed as a chance to change the cars, it's just racing a stick and an auto, may the best man (or woman) win. Kinda like when we street raced. I don't remember ever giving or taking because of a transmission!
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BTW, nobody asked me either and my membership hasn't lapsed since the 70s. |
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Didn't come with it shouldn't race with it? To bad you don't have the same attitude when it comes to performance enhancing part that benefits AMC racers!! |
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and while I'm on a roll, either everyone should get aluminium heads or no-one should get them! Mention THAT to your "buddy" Pat!
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