Jeff Teuton
 

Hey Jeff, we are not in Atlanta running stock, do you think they miss us?

woodro josey
I miss Buster Couch and Lex Dudas.

Woody,
We missed you at the SportsNats that's for sure! I also am not at Atlanta, I wonder how many are intentionally not at Atlanta? They have less than half a field by my count. Jim

Jim Wahl
6 Time National record Holder
2239 BF/S
I miss Buster Couch also! 'cause Div.2 will always be "Buster's Rebels"

Do you think NHRA is listening?

Do you think they really care - they'll just find something else to fine you for and make up the difference.

Hi Jeff-Woodrow and Jim. I am not at Atlanta either, to much BS for me.
Bring back the good days.

TOM WARD

Woody, they know. I got a complaint from the beer distributors in the Atlanta area for low sales. Two things. I doubt if NHRA noticed. Still got 56 entries. Thing two. I don't think they care. It's a pro show with alcohol thrown in and T/S which is a pretty good show.

jeff,
we are running low on grey goose here in buffalo, thinking of moving in with you. got anything for me to drive?

dj raiser

Guys:

I still think we need to start our on association and hold our on
races. We've just got to find someone we would all trust and
has time (like a real smart retired guy) to start up and run the
association. NCRA-National Class Racers Association.

Any smart guys out there with the time to devote to getting this
started. Also, if he did would the racers join and support the
deal or just keep whining about how bad NHRA is treating them
at Nationa Events.

Now is the time to do it. Any willing takers???

SEB

SEB...the association idea has been brought up and there is no way it will work until the racers agree to follow the decisions of the leadership of an association and its members.

We had two great and respected guys that gave it a try and got thrashed: Jeff Teuton and Alex Denysenko

Just read many of the posts in this forum and you will notice that you can't get an agreement between racers on any issues.

SE has a good suggestion that would be one hell of a lot more difficult to carry out than to conceive. I think Jeff has the right idea, let's just talk about it and have another beer. (Jeff has always impressed me as a "thinking man's drinker.") Anyway, by the time any plan was developed to the trial stage, we'd all be thirsty again and further development would be required.

I have come to believe that the train has left the station when it comes to class racing conducted in the way we all loved it. The avalanche of evidence is accumulating faster than we old-timers can shovel it away. Every time NHRA opens its mouth or some apologist chimes in, the pile gets deeper.

Maybe what we need is a Class Racer's Reunion event? Leave the cars at home. Somehow, the current geezer rage of "cacklefest events" leaves me cold. Is it just me or is that pretty much pathetic? Just load the trailers with a carefully selected cargo of beer, Jack Daniels, and wine coolers with a bag of chips thrown in for the sake of nutrition. Arrive on a Wednesday (allowing time for inspection, parking, and a time trials for tall tales), chip eating followed by qualifying drinks would be mixed in on Thursday and Friday morning (early), with the first round of eliminations to be held just after daybreak on Saturday. Anyone left standing by noon Saturday can hang around until the finals on Sunday but everyone else will stampede toward the gates on Saturday afternoon.

It's possible to over-think this sort of occasion. The best events seem to just sort of materialize out of imagination and thin air.

c

SSDIV6 and CHUCK:

I am not proposing 'just' an association like Jeff tried. I am talking
about our on association away from NHRA all together. You can
bel;ong to both if you would like and probably most would. That way
you can go to Points races and National events that are close.

The problem with everybody is most of us older guys have NHRA
tatooed in our souls because we grew up with it, dreamed of going
to the pointsraces and national events, built many cars with only that
in mind. In other words we lived and breathed going to NHRA races.
It is hard to think of any other organization that would satisfy our
'longings' that we all are so attached to.

This is just my idea I have thought about for a few years since we
keep getting shuffled more and more to the back corner of the
track. I have just about retired but not completely. Never say never.

Anyway, it is something to think about not just say it can't be done
and forget it. Let's mull it over and if a bright industrious person
wants to give it a stab let's support it. We can make it work.




SEB

SEB...Jeff's association involved both NHRA and IHRA racers...it was not affiliated in no way directly to NHRA. If you are talking about having an association that has its own races, it was also tried by Alex Denysenko and he got crucified by many.

I am not trying to sound pessimistic, what we need is an association that everyone would embrace and allow the leaders make the decisions above and beyond some racers Chuck's approach is a good one since allow everyone to act in a level headed way.

The other problem that I saw with Jeff's was that many wanted current racers to be the leaders; I believe, like you do, the association would do better with most of the leadership being former racers instead of current racers. That way you avoid accusations of favoritism.

SSDIV6:

You're beginning to get the idea. Keep thinking.

SEB

Sorry, got a new laptop and trying to see if I can post.
Patsy

Larry

Well, remember guys we did beat the mufflers. Got to be a way.

2998

S.E.B.,

I no longer race a Class car, but I keep my finger on the pulse of NHRA Class racing through friends who do (and, you know who they are), through reading "NATIONAL Dragster," going to what races I can attend, and reading this, and a few other drag racing BB's.

Both Mr. Teuton and Mr. Denysenko gave of their time and energy unselfishly ,and generously, to try to accomplish basically, what you are talking about, here.

In the end, neither was successful, through what I felt was no fault of their own.

With NO understanding of what they were up against, I tried my own "exercise-in-futility" by attempting to get a consensus just of this board's contributors, on approaching NHRA for a change in the red-light procedure to a "Worse Red Light" rule, instead of what we have, now.

All I got was one argument after another that "it ain't broke, don't try to fix it" (it is VERY broke, and has been for 34 years...), and people accusing me of trying to somehow gain an advantage for slower cars (no way I know of to do that, nor, would I want to.)

Ultimately, I couldn't even get the drivers of SLOW cars, (who are almost always victimized by the current rule as it exists now,) to support an idea for changing the way the red light system works.

With that kind of mindset endemic, it is near-impossible to put together ~anything~ that some faction, or other, isn't going to perceive as "favoritism" for somebody else.

That's just the way it is...

Paranoia is the enemy. Most people seem to think that if it's good for YOU, it must be bad for THEM.... just naturally.

To be sure, that line of thinking creates an attitude that undermines the whole operation... even before it has a chance to really get off the ground...

Realistically, who can blame them? After years and years of "enhancemets" from Wally World that seemingly NEVER work to the racers' benefit, it's easy to understand why they would be wary of any change.

And, by-the-way, I think that your suggestion to have this proposed organization headed up by someone who no longer races, is the best idea I've heard. That, alone, might go a long way toward minimizing the problem of the sure-to-occur misconception that "the powers that be" could have an agenda that might be construed as benefitting just one group, or individual; the paranoia that is sure to occur....

Good luck with your quest; I'd LOVE to see something like that succeed!! You can't imagine, how much...

Bill

OK, Dedman for president of the USRA (United Sportsman Racers Assn.) ! He fits all the qualifications doesn't he? Jim

Jim Wahl
6 Time National record Holder
2239 BF/S
I miss Buster Couch also! 'cause Div.2 will always be "Buster's Rebels"

Jim,

Just what this forum needs; some humor!!!

You be FUNNEEE!!! http://www.classracer.com/html/happy.gif

Bill

To bring such a vision into reality will require a dedicated group of people who will work to make it happen without widespread support and a tenacious will to continue even in the face of defeat. Alex's race was a success in most aspects but I can easily understand why he chose to give it up. You are talking about a huge undertaking with countless hours of work, little help, little appreciation and lots of bitching, then lost money on the race. Alex has a life, a business, and would rather race than run a race that cost him money and time. But there was general widespread support, lots of cars that showed up and most of those who attended would readily attend another. And there have been and continue to be successful local race series directed toward the Stock/SS racers. In fact, Jim Schaecter mentioned the Heartland series that Bob Gipson has helped promote in a recent email to me. These two facts should be encouragement to someone. Even Wally Parks started NHRA drag racing and had to fight the same battles.

SEB and Bill Dedman have emphasized the point that the players would need to be people who do not race in order to keep down the suspicion of favoritism. I agree and also note that for the most part, successful track operators and race promoters do not race themselves. That's not to say it cannot be done, but running a race or a race organization and racing a car are both full time jobs. I do not see how some one who wants to race could handle both. I believe the people are out there who can and would handle the organization and technical definition of the races. What is needed in the promoters and lead men and the visionary leaders.

MHO

Dwight Southerland

Thats' right on Dwight and I can think of a good one.

His initials are D.S.

SEB

Well, I'm bored at work, and against my better judgement here I go: I too am dismayed at the enhancements CLASS racers have received, and as Alice in Wonderland stated: "it gets curiouser and curiouser"

I supported (to a small extent) Alex's vision of the US Class Nationals, attended and had a great time, heat and all, and poor car performance as well as driver...I observed Alex almost having heat stroke getting things done, and the later to suffer"the slings and arrows" that critics launched

I also supported in a small way Jeff's Racer ***'n and watch his efforts and "out-of-pocket" expenses be ridiculed and second guessed. I believe he at one time offered to "buy out" fom NHRA the Class portion of their eliminators. Tueton had the time, interest and pockets to try to get things done. After watching those two individuals get flamed, who could get any consencus from the rank & file racer?

An interesting proposal is a non-racer, former racer that has been floated; do these individuals have the time, money, backing and tough skin to do it?

The problem as I see it is the cachet of NHRA that cannot be duplicated by a independent racing series. Hate it or not, many, including me, race, not for money, but for some small recognition from our peers around the country if we get one line of ink in Dragster, one more Wally, one line in a points listing, either on the web site or in Digger...or heavens, a small BW picture in our weekly Bible....these things cannot be duplicated by an independent area series, any S/SS regional event or two or three US Class Nationals in my opinion.

My nomination to "run" this would be Pat Joffrion, even if he races with a car, which he has stated he wants to do. He has proven he has what it takes. I think he also knows that to be a success he has to "work with" NHRA to generate national interest.

I think we all know that the Columbus Sportsnationals fell short of what Pat puts on in Belle Rose...I do not know about the west coast version.

What I would do is have Pat work with NHRA to offer 6 to 8 Sportsnationals held at their high level NHRA tracks, pay Pat, allow him to race, pay his travel expenses to manage the event as he knows how with his creative "extra" races with Racer Sponsorship. Create a 3-4 race points schedule with a crystal type Wally as a trophy.

Just some random thoughts on a slow day at work. Safe travel to all and good luck racing his year.


Randall Klein

Bill why was you so eager to change something about a class that you dont race in ? most of us who does didn't want it! That's just the way it is...and it's a problem for some..it?s the constant urge for changes (in all area's)that need to be stopped...and slowed down!

If we could get guys like Chuck N, D. and such people..with thier enormous knowledge(and fuzzy memories)to run the future of Stock and SS...it would be great...but they are too smart jump on that wagon...even if they still burn for it....you just have to watch these forums too see that no one would like too take that kind of abuse..just takes every little bit of fun out of it!

But clearly ...it's time to start looking for otherplaces to race our classes now..find someone thats interested in the money ....NMCA ..or ...Dave Ley is going in the right direction i think!maybe it's possible too build on that.....but it's hard to have actual racers in the mix...almost impossible!

You didn't miss anything in atlanta. We got 2 time runs on thursday, round 1 fri. at 9am round2 sat at 9am. and the rest on sunday. they only care about the pro guys. lets race our own events. Between you WJ and guys like my dad there is enough knowledge to do this. So I spent $1500. for 3 runs that sucks....


Jeremy Waibel
K&N B/SA 69 camaro
2231

bsa396 wrote:

"Bill why was you so eager to change something about a class that you dont race in ?"

First off, I don't like people writing notes on this forum who are too unethical to use their real name. I have a mental image of some furtive little coward who is afraid of his own shadow, yet feels brave under the cloak of anonymity that monikers like "bsa396" give him... and it's not a very complimenrtary image.
But, in your case, I'll make an exception because you're so "easy.".

Your question, "Bill why was you so eager to change something about a class that you dont race in ?" seems honest enough, but why would you care what my personal reasons are for wanting this change? Why I want it has nothing to do with the situation as regards the racing that goes on, week-after-week. But, since you asked, I'll tell you.

First off, my perspective may well have a different point of view than yours since I started racing at organized drag evenys in 1955. That is 8 years before the appearance of the Christmas Tree. Flag starts were the norm, and there were no red lights (jump sttarts, yes, but no red lights.)

When the 'tree became popular, I was happy with the situation as regards red lights and how they were handled by the system (first red light is the loser, period.) To tell you the truth, I never gave it a second thought, EVEN WHEN THEY CHANGED THE BREAKOUT SYSTEM FROM "FIRST BREAKOUT LOSES" TO "CAR THAT BREAKS OUT THE MOST LOSES." I wasn't smart enough to see the correlation between this breakout change and the red light situation. I stumbled blindly on, accepting the "first red light" rule for many, many years.

Then, one day a kind soul who shall remain nameless here, took the time to explain to me that the situation involving handicap starts always gave a free ride to the car that leaves last, IF the first car to leave red lighted. I can't tell you how dumb I felt that once it sunk in, to realize that I just had never thoiught about it in that way.

But, there it was... a fact.

He explained to me that this situation existed for a long time because there was not software to "FIX" the situation, so nobody attempted to do anything about it. It went on for so long that it became "institutionalized"... an integral part of "the way things are done."

Now, however, it IS possible to hold off the red light until BOTH drivers have had their equal chance to red light, making for a more level playing field in that one area.

If you have an opinion about capital punishment, then you are in the same position I am. No, you've never killed anybody, or been killed, but you surely have an opinion about what should be done with the people who perform that legal infraction.

Well, I have MY opinion, and this is a public form for discussion of ideas regarding things having to do with class-legal drag racing, so that is my right, as I see it, to give the people who read this board my two cent's worth...

I run a bracket car, which is handicap racing not totally unlike Stock is, most of the time. The same inequity exists in bracket racing; sometimes I'm the faster car, sometimes not. So, I can benefit from the stsus quo )first red light loses), when I leave last, but I am not comfortable with that "free ride," knowing that it's no longer necessary to have this inequity. I want my chance to red light, too... crazy though that may sound, it's only fair.

Then bsa396 wrote:
"most of us who does didn't want it! That's just the way it is...and it's a problem for some.."

I'm not sure exactly what that means ("most of us who DOES???), but I assume he thinks that the majority of the folks on this BB are happy with the system as it is.

I don't know how he can know that, but I won't argue becasuse I haven't interviewed all the people on tthis board; I assume he has...
He may well be right.



Then, he wrote:

"it's the constant urge for changes (in all area's)that need to be stopped...and slowed down!"

I can't argue with that, either. Too much "enhancement" has driven a lot of people from the Stocker ranks, and it never seems to end. Constant change is a really bad thing in this venue, I think, and totally unnecessary.

HOWEVER, in my defense, let me just say that this ONE ISSUE (the first/worse red light rule) is the ONLY issue I have ever suggested a rule change for. My involvement in this racing deal has showed me that there have been way too many changes already, and for that reason, I have never been involved with, or supported or even SUGGESTED any other changes... just this one, out of a sense of fair play.

So, bsa396, the fact that I no longer race a Stock Eliminator car doesn't mean I don't care, or have an opinion about what goes on in Stock.

You don't have to be a woman to be a good gynecologist...

I just saw what I perceived as an injustice of long-standing, still ongoing, with now, an easy FIX, and thought it was definitely overdue to fix it. This change would filter down at all forms of handicap racing (of which I am a participant in one), so it's not like I have made suggestions to a venue that would never affect ME. It will, eventually.

I have an undying love for Stock and S/S eliminator, and always want it to be as good and as fair as it can be. This seemed like one way to change it for the better. My 2-cents...

bsa396, try putting your real name on your posts; you'll feel better, and you'll garner lot more respect from the other people here.





Bill

Bill...i just took that as an example....its a dead horse..this board may be something to keep you in touch with the sport you obviously love...but when you mention that you havent interviewed everyone on these boards what the actual opinion was/is you expose one thing ....this is just the cyberworld...even while most read on here less than 10% of the actual racers say anything on these boards...it's actual probably as much nonracers,wannaberacers or coming racers that have opinions...so what goes on here dosent have a lot too with the actual opinoin amongs the pointsearners....thats why i think NHRA and such always should ask the racers direct...and they have started too do that

I dont bash anyone..so i dont feel i have too show my name....just have opinions...like most of us...if they dont seem valid just because there isn't name...well thats up to you and others..alot of real racers know who i am and for the same reason as they dont post here,fear of getting bashed for various reasons i will keep it that way

p.s. i do like to read about your memories from the past and such,have a good day!

bsa,

You think it's a "dead horse," huh?
You'd better check your crystal ball...

I didn't say that.... LOL!

I can't IMAGINE posting on here "anonymously." I'd be afrraid of what people would think about me... I'm sure there are a lot of folks here who think I'm a complete idiot, and that I stick my nose in where it doesn't belong, but at least they know who they're dealing with.

Each year, I manage to go to a few national events and some points races that are within reasonable driving distance, read digger, and have some close friends who still run Stockers, so I am not TOTALLY out of touch with reality when it comes to current events.. Plus I run my junk in Brackets, but that doesn't count for much...

Like you, I only used the red light rule as an example of how hard it is to get the rank-and-file racers to agree on ANYTHING that affects their racing oprration, because they have been stepped on, kicked around, fined, and deleted from the program to the extent that their UNDERSTANDABLE attitude is, "What next???"

It makes them wary and untrustful of anybody and anything that wants to effect a change in the way things are done.

So, it's going to be a steep, uphill battle for anyone attempting to organize any meaningful challenge to the ststus quo as regards NHRA and the racing program.

At least, that's the way I see it. And I think that's a real shame, because something definitely needs to be done.

Bill

bsa633 wrote: its a dead horse

That horse is far from dead! Don't be too surprised if the red light rule is changed to reflect the worse red light as the loser in the near future.

...not that it matters, but I agree with my buddy Bill on this! http://www.classracer.com/html/happy.gif

IMHO, people run NHRA races for one of 4 reasons (or a combination thereof):

1. Money - They have the sponsors, and as such if you win a National event you're going to have one of the biggest paydays possible in sportsman drag racing.

2. Prestige - This includes owning a Wally. As NHRA is the biggest and the oldest, they get the best press coverage, and their trophy has more prestige than others.

3. It's convenient - Depending upon where you live it may offer you the best opportunity to race at some big events, or at the most events. If you live in Lake Havasu City, you have 5 national events within a 90 minute drive, and no other real options.

4. Your friends are there - Sportsman drag racing is a social event. Very few of us are touring professional sportsman racers, and if we're doing this for fun, it's more fun to be at the races that our friends are at.

None of these things are bound to happen IMMEDIATELY. Numbers 3 and 4 have the best chance of happening quickly, but number 1 will take time and a lot of hard work (sponsors have to believe that there will be some return on their investment via the media) and is even related to number 2. Number 2 alone will take a LOT of time develop. Mainstream media is not going to cover these events from the get-go, and unless you have the money like NHRA to publish your own paper to hundreds of thousands of people, it's going to take a while to develop this.

What it all gets down to is that in order for a new sanctioning body to work, it will take somebody who can dedicate ALL of their professional time to develop it, it WILL take MULTIPLE YEARS for something like this to come together where it is anywhere near the magnitude of NHRA or IHRA, and it will take somebody who WILL NOT GIVE UP. An undertaking like this is bound to have it's problems, but the person that does it will need to see past that and carry on (obviously, a thick skin is a must).

Oh, and a deep pocketbook probably wouldn't hurt either, though I'm not sure this is required (well, I guess it would be required because anybody that had a full-time job would most certainly need to quit it to make this become a reality, so you better have a deep pocketbook to at least keep food on the table for a year or two).

I personally don't remember the details behind Alex's endeavor, but honestly I think all us sportsman racers want is to be treated fairly and with dignity. I really believe that if to start this new organization had the exact same rulebook as NHRA, but cared more about it's racers, returned more of the entry money to the racers, and didn't try to gouge it's racers every chance it had that it would be successful.

Some of us would complain no matter what, but my guess is that 90% of our complaints could be addressed in a half dozen issues:

1. Better payout - Simply return more money to the racers rather than pocketing it to turn huge profit. That said, I don't think any of us is against a sanctioning body turning a profit, but again, don't gouge us.

2. Don't nickel and dime us to death - This includes everything from the insurance surcharge, to the oil down fine, to the seatbelt rule (I'm sure I could come up with more, but we'll leave it at that for now).

3. Respect us as working individuals, and make a sportsman racer friendly schedule. Not only should the schedule be made so that people can take less time off of work, but don't make us run at 8 o'clock in the morning and 9 at night every single event. Once in a while is fine to overcome an unforeseen weather issue, but it doesn't have to be every event. Also, don't schedule races over umpteen days, and take advantage of holidays where possible. Why aren't there national events on Memorial Day and July 4th weekends? Because the Pros want to spend that time at home with their families since they're on the road so much, and the NHRA probably needs to give it's employees those holidays off (the employee issue is something that would need to be addressed regardless, but every local track I know has major races on those 2 weekends). And why are the Open and LODRS events at Maple Grove scheduled for Wednesday through Sunday rather than Thursday through Monday so that us working stiffs have to take one less day off of work?

4. Give us better racing facilities - This doesn't mean upgrades to the tracks themselves as much as it means better pits and not having to run when dew is accumulating on the track. Simply eliminating the Pros from the schedule fixes this as we'd gain about 4,000 pit spots on the pavement without them there (plus with less cars there'd be more time to get the race in during daylight hours).

There's probably one or two other things the majority of the people would like to see improved, but if you fixed those 4 items above, I think 90% of the people would be happy (and you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time).

In closing, I know this CAN be done. It's just a matter of finding the right person to do it. And I know it WILL happen eventually...I just don't know if it will be in my lifetime or not (think about it, it's a GREAT opportunity for somebody who has the dream and desire to make it happen).

That's my $0.03 (it was definitely more than $0.02)...

Jason Oldfield
S/G & S/ST 1838

Though I don't race NHRA at this time I have in the "good old days" and have kept up with it over the years. For the last 9 years I have raced with a couple of organizations that race somewhat nationally. The NSCA, (Tony DePillo) and the NMCA. Now I realize these are not as "big" and have the following of NHRA, but they are a lot easier and racer friendly to race with. I know Tony is trying to get the Stocker/Super Stocker thing going. If you have not tried one of his races, I think I would give it a try. You can do it in 2 days and spend less money and not be under the constant pressure like NHRA. If someone is wanting to do something different, I think I would start by talking to Tony. I'm just an old fool trying to do the racing I couldn't when I was a kid.
Jim Netherland
B/NSS 67 GS400