Hemi Head Ruling
 

This whole thing has been blown way out of proportion, thanks to Charlie and a few crooked officials at NHRA. Just like every other rule he breaks, NHRA revises the rules to accommodate his BS. What's next, he'll win on a red light?

Our heads are simple. We cut them back as far as we can while keeping the original valve cover and intake bolt holes. First we were accused of relocating our flanges and bolt holes, which could not be more wrong, then it turned into the BS about machining into the top of the hole which was never a rule in the first place.

After this whole experience we learned that once again the competition has been given a free pass to win another Shootout illegally. After being accused we started researching what the others have been doing to find out they're more bogus than you can ever imagine. The intake and valve cover flanges are busted off and/or relocated. Not only that, the intake flange has been angle milled so much that the factory intake bolt holes are completely gone. How on earth did this ever pass NHRA teardown at Indy? Oh, that's right, they had a private teardown session in their own trailer. Because that always happens at Indy.:confused:

For those of you who aren't in the loop with the latest ruling, if you are running SS/AH you can now basically do whatever you want with the ports as long as they pour within spec. Meaning, you can machine the intake flange into the valve spring. This was all done because NHRA knew CW shouldn't have passed at Indy, and this is their way of patching it up. If NHRA wasn't under the spotlight this whole deal would have been swept under the rug like any other time.

The straight tech guys at NHRA have had their hands tied this whole time. Nobody at NHRA has been allowed to say anything except for Glen, Bruce, and Danny. Something smells really bad over there. It's too bad because there really is some good people with NHRA, but they're not allowed to do what they know is right.

The list goes on with the BS at NHRA. And it's all because of a few bad apples overriding the system. I just hope they're gone before class racing is completely ruined. I just want to express that I never wanted SS/AH to part from Super Stock rules. This whole deal really saddens me that it has come to this point. I can't even imagine what the other Super Stock racers must think of us. At this point I don't even want to be associated with the class. The only thing keeping me going is the love of the class and the great people I've met along the way.

David Barton

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

This stuff is even beyond my imagination! I trust this is SS/AH legal ONLY?

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

From the movie "Open Range"

Denton Baxter: I'm dying.
Boss Spearman: And for what? More cows (HP)? You killed a good man.

David, I do like that win on a red light idea!!!

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Very well said David. (after reading Jimmy Defranks post I'm not fighting with my fellow racer, can u tell? ;) )

Unfortunately I think a lot of people feel this rule was made because of the Bartons and I can't blame you for wanting to clear your name. Like you, I feel the new rule is not in line with traditional Super Stock rules. They (NHRA) are making SS/AH a bastard class, more in line with SS/X classes than SS/AA where the true roots of these cars lie...

And Stephen, if I was you, I think I would be the most pissed off of all. If they ever threw me out at Indy, I would not have the class and composure of Mike Cotten ! All hell would break loose and anyone with bolts out of their heads would have been going home with me at the very least !

Again, after reading Jimmy Defranks post, I am going to shut my mouth as I know this sport and more specifically this class may be my passion in life, but at the end of the day its just my hobby. Now if it was my business...

Thank you David for posting this. Everytime I talk with someone (East or West Coast), there is always another SS/AH car for sale or being parked. I can only hope some good comes from this and the class doesn't become SS/AHX!

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What the hell are you talking about? Is this your way to spin this in your favor? The rule that everyone wanted except you guy was that the top of the V/C bolt hole had to be there, you guys have milled into that bolt at the top, which you showed to one of my customers at the dutch, I never milled any heads that far.
The statements you made are beyond rediculous, and show the lack of intelligence that you have.

I am not in favor of the new rule, I think its going to turn the class into an altered class.
My heads shouldnt have passed at indy? Why were you there, or are you just listening to the BS that your Dad spews?

The facts are is if this rule stands you know you wont win a creativity battle with me, so you have to call it now as if they made it for me.

I say go back to the original rule, the bolt hole cant be milled into, and you guys will have to sell the garden club new heads cause they cant pass the rule as it was.

cw

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nobody wants this rule!!! NHRA are you listening???

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If the two most prominent S/S/AH HEMI engine builders and racers don't like the ruling, why didn't the N.H.R.A. consult them before adopting it?

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Frank, you're kidding right?

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Billy,
As ridiculous as it may sound, it would make sense, would it not?

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Face it, $$$$ and ego are the primary passions in play here and I don't mean any disrespect toward either party; it's simply the way it is. For two years I watched the war wage on at Valdosta where records were set and also witnessed some of the Indy Shoot out competition. Competitive spirit combined with the passion involved is a huge part of our sport's history...does anyone doubt that Shirley didn't advance the sport with her bitter rivalries (including with Wally Parks)? The examples are endless. Hard-nosed competition is just part of the territory in the AH world. Let the games continue....

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This just like our poor nation, governance by FREAKOUT. (Peggy Noonan)2013

Here’s the deal. As of this moment I am sponsoring a hybrid Chootout ie: AH class elims on Sat. $10,000 winner take all. Lets call it the "Krazy Kajun Freakout Classic" (KKFC) race. May throw in a bucket of chicken, HA!

The original rule on VC etc will be enforced as far as my payout goes. This is America....I will enter the event in order to park on the grounds and will make my final voyages with the Phish at Thursdays test session. I will not enter the race at all. After NHRA is done with whatever for class, winning car and crew will report to my trailer if they want to collect. My crew will be excused and winning crew will remove the intake, place my valve cover on the head to verify no mods etc, visual inspection of VC bolt shaft (no threads exposed), and pour a runner. Myself, one of my R&M heads, a burette and my checkbook is all that will be present. RSVP required.

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Spyfish, can I go watch? This could be an episode of my new Soap Opera about the Hemi cars called As the Bayou Flows. it will debut on CBS this summer.

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All the good shows are on CBS....I'll subscribe.

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Their "news" coverage is exceptional.
So "fair and balanced" LOL

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Networks carry news? Who da thunk it?

News pickings are pretty slim to be sure...Don't think they are the least bit interested in our demographic Art.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

will be interesting to see
who shows up with those rules
maybe i should get my car runnin...might be easy $$

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I don't know why everyone keeps saying the original rule was to not cut into the top of the valve cover bolt hole. If it said anything about the valve cover bolt hole it would have meant cutting into ANY portion of the hole.

Where did it ever say you can cut into the hole but not on the top?

Anyway, besides all of that, Charlie, I have 2 simple questions for you.

#1 - At Indy 2012, did you go to teardown with your valve cover flange busted off?

#2 - At Indy 2012, did you have external modifications to the front of your heads like Comella had at the Dutch Classic?

According to the picture posted on Moparts, your valve cover flange has been machine so much that the flange is falling off. What good is the top of the hole if the flange is gone? And the one crappy repair you can see that the flange was poorly welded on and is clearly not welded back in place where it should be.

Wendell Howes stated that everyones valve covers should bolt onto each others heads. We clearly showed him as well as NHRA that you can still bolt on a factory valve cover to our heads with all 10 bolts. I can't say the same for yours being you have to bolt your valve covers to the intake! Can you say bogus?

I wouldn't have the balls to show up at an NHRA event with parts like this. I have too much respect for guys like Dave Ley and Ryck Cambell. I couldn't look them in the eye with a straight face and say my parts are legal. I don't know how you sleep at night.

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NHRA did consult with my Dad and Westcott and this is how they came to a ruling. My Dad has been on them for months about putting a rule in writing because its clear that our competitors are taking it way too far.

NHRA made this new ruling because they know CW shouldn't have passed at Indy. He keeps making it like I'm spinning the story but he is full of smoke and mirrors.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

The simple solution would have been to move forward, and state the rule will be enforced as originally written to benefit the class and no one competitor or engine builder.
The integrity of the Super Stock Class is being questioned by this decision.

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Even though I'm nowhere near the class of an AH racer, the same problem affected me as well as all other NHRA racers, and that's the persuasive power money has towards the sanctioning body, starting from the top down. Just like governmental politics it appeared the creation of the AH class, and the convoluted rules would make Mopar the ultimate benefactor in selling parts to ALL the engine builders. Nothing against Charlie or Ray, but I saw the writing on the wall several years ago when Mopar stepped up to support the class, knowing full well how their dollars would influence NHRA rules, while the spirit and legacy of these cars eventually started to fade. After many years around various forms of motorsports, I can't help but notice how honest "non-profit" sanctioning bodies waiver very little in terms of guidelines through unbiased governance, a trait NHRA lost decades ago.

I may be wrong, but it's just my $.02

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Man, you all are gonna ruin the class before i get back out......Except,Except. why should we be excepted from ss.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

My popcorn just finished, cold drink in hand, cant wait to see where this goes!

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I couldn't agree more. The rules were fine the way they were. But like other past experiences we've had, they make a rule change to accommodate guys like CW. I don't know where all the love is coming from, but he has something on them. Or maybe in them.:eek:

Here is a perfect example. If you ask NHRA if you can run a raised cam in Super Stock they will tell you no. There are several SS/AH guys that have raised cams. My Dad asked if we can protest anyone with a raised cam and NHRA told him, "Well, that's not something we really check." Why not?

So now NHRA is considering grandfathering the raised cam rule because apparently some guys have been running them for quite some time now. Yeah, that seems fair. Instead of enforcing the rule, lets change it for the cheaters.

Same thing happened at Indy a few years back. We got word that CW's guys were running funky lifter angles. We asked Bruce from NHRA at the Keystone's if he would check anyone if they were protested. He said, "I would, but I don't have the equipment". So we asked if we supplied him with the right tools if he would check anyone and he assured us it wouldn't be a problem.

Guess what, we get to Indy, and Danny Gracia and Bruce denied the protest. The one time we actually said "F*** it, enough is enough, lets protest this bastard", we were turned down. The following week we received a phone call from NHRA along with an e-mail confirming we had a personal invitation to relocate our lifter bores anywhere we want in both Stock and Super Stock. It was never published in the rule book, but I have a copy.

We never asked for any favoritism. Just enforce the stinking rules!

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

David didnt u move lifter bores around before charlie ever saw a hemi?

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Yes, we were moving the lifter bores. But then we were told that was illegal so it was stopped. We didn't ask for a rule change.

Years later we caught wind others were doing it. When we asked NHRA about it they agreed it was illegal. When we attempted to protest we were denied.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

You can call it Innovation, or Interpretation, but it's really the Lack of Consistent Rules Enforcement from the NHRA Tech. Department that ruined Stock and Super Stock long ago. This Hemi Head debacle is just another example of letting too much go on, for too long.

So my question is this... Since, both stock & super stock, are now modified so far beyond the original intent of their class/es, why should any of this really matter?

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X2!
It reminds years ago of the combustion chamber size shrouding issue with the Chevy small blocks.

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Who remembers when they let ported heads in super stock it was kind of funny when alot of guys that were going fast at the time did not go any faster with the new rule. Now look where we are at. Tom

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

David, it's time to call in the Amish Mafia !!!

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I fully agree, couldn't have been simpler.

Jim Mantle V/SA 6632

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I can give you all a hemi head story.
In 1980 Mother Mopar found 4 virgin steel hemi heads and sent them to Etown with Bob Glidden. I was told to go pick the two I wanted and tell a well know superstock racer to come get the other two. I studied them for an hour picked what I thought were the best two, loaded them in my red wagon, wheeled them to our trailer. And went and told the superstock racer to go get the other two.
This was when the Etown race was in late July.
Well come labor day weekend. We are in the tech in line at Indy and talk to the superstock racers Driver. He asks if we put the heads on the car yet, and told us they helped a bunch. But it took a long time getting the headers on. We hadn't done anything with that set of heads . But had a set with an Identical casting number on the car.
It did not come to mind that the superstock team had changed engines in half an hour when needed. Mere headers should not have phased them a bit.
Well that was back when all class winners went to the barn. The superstocker had their head off and on the bench, so we rushed to get ours up there. Nhra hated to do Hemi's because they had to fill the burrette up twice for the 168cc combustion chamber and the guy that was doing the heads at the time was a good guy. I took the head up and was looking at the head on the table it seemed to have "slightly" smaller intake ports than our head Then I wiped the sweat out of my eyes and saw I was looking at the exhausts.
Then the stock and superstock heads were the same except for valve springs and retainers. Those exhaust were almost as large as my intakes plus the bolt holes were moved. That was why the trouble with the headers.
When I saw this I knew I couldn't put our head down or they would have bounced the other head. So I told them I had to go ice our head down, and brought it up an hour later. Everyone passed and we all had a good race.
But then and there I knew it was over. We quit the following year.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

thats enlightening right there!

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Frank, The problem with doing this is that probably 80% or more of the Hemi heads in Super Stock would be illegal. They tried doing the AH racers a favor by legalizing what they are all running right now, but in the process passed this rule to all non-SS/AH Hemi Super Stock racers! So all the racers that have been running old SS/AH heads are now in need of new head castings! $$$

As was said in the previous thread, the Hemi head is unique as to the angle of the valve cover bolt to the face of the intake flange. Most heads have been milled through the bolt which was illegal the way the rule was written.

The simple solution would have been to legalize cutting back to/ into the valve cover bolt legalizing heavily modded SS heads out there. Making ALL SS hemi racers heads useable and allowing AH heads to filter down into the lower SS classes legally.

The Cuda and Darts came from the factory as pure Super Stock cars, no more, no less. They should have to follow the same rules as all super stock cars and not be given preferential treatment. Moving valve cover bolts to trim an inch off the intake flange is not in line with traditional Super Stock rules!

Comp eliminator already has "half a hemi". There is no room for "Half a Hemi head" in Super Stock!

The two major Hemi engine builders/ competitors both agreed they do not want this. This is a very expensive "trick of the week" for AH cars and in a class where money seems to be no object, the list of contestants is shrinking rapidly. Sad to see RMRE will no longer be in the SS Hemi wars, along with others. And back to the drawing board for Bucky. :(
Not good for the class. Let an AH car cross the seven second barrier with traditional rules not $$$...

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

[QUOTE=SSDA Hemi;370786]

And Stephen, if I was you, I think I would be the most pissed off of all. If they ever threw me out at Indy, I would not have the class and composure of Mike Cotten ! All hell would break loose and anyone with bolts out of their heads would have been going home with me at the very least !

NHRA said noting to me at the track. Photographed my R&M stuff with Ray Barton. standing right there. Got a call on the way home from CW asking why I was DQ? I was so POed the car has been in the top of the stacker until last week. About a month later I recieved a letter from NHRA saying to remove (2) 1/4 X 20 bolts that are visible on the head. We have 4?? on each head. Typo or can I leave 2?

Charlie won the race, got paid and has a steel arbor thru the head VISIBLE even with my poor one eye where my bolts are. (Our design is better). Just not faster and now we know why.

I am still waiting for takers on the KKFC challenge. Not a joke, I am serious. "Nip this K&%# in the bud" as we say in the South.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Spyphish,I thought you had numerous pictures of the Barton and Warfish heads! where is your SPY ? LOL!

When all else fails, blame it on Frito!!

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David, I would LOVE a copy of that e-mail! That would explain a lot of things.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

NHRA had a rule 3 weeks ago that made 80% of the heads legal.One engine builder (Barton) did not like the rule so NHRA changed it to what we have today.All heads now legal and junk. Oh well new heads and manifold only 30k and we will all be faster.Hoping we get a spoiler soon as the cars are becoming unsafe at these speeds.Lots of luck to all this season. Wendell

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This class was better when 9.00 was good and 8.99 was good for a starting line celebration. Now you got a pro stock car wrapped in a 68 Cuda or Dart body. It is so far out there, and the barn door has been open so long, the farm animals are now sleek low slung panthers. I wonder just how many could stand a Wesley inspection; motor, body, driveline, FRAME, and other stuff. I made templets for NHRA for the bodies that fit like a glove. Naturally NHRA refused to use them. I will offer them again. They were made off of old non-molested cars. SS/AH is still the most populated class in all of Super Stock and they do deserve special treatment, so write the rules on what is out there. It is impossilbe to regulate it at this point, leave the index @ 9.30 and give them modified rules. Nothing changes and they can then have 92 bolt holes machined off, still in SS. They don't stand up any move like the Hemis of old, don't really look like the old stuff, and if the cam's were any higher in the block, they would have a chandlier on them instead of lifters which those are bigger, moved, angled, sorta like this body I live in. Anybody really know where the steering really goes on a 68? Maybe I will make up a tech card just for the entertainment of those interested. And my Brother Joe and Nephew Lil Joe have 3 of those things, and over the years we have had many 68's. Pictures then and now will scare you. Hell, I believe I got .25 cents worth here.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

This thread is great, it's just Barton and crew crying about Charlie W constantly kick there ***** on and off the track. I do find it funny that David called CW a cheater, yet CW or CW customers have never been DQ (with a hemi) and yet Barton cars have been DQ after winning a hemi challenge race.