Stocker pistons...
 

JE vs CP vs ? Are they all about the same, quality/price wise/performance? CP quoted me about 1500... i about choked... JE is about 970.00 These are Pontiac pistons....'67-'79 Flat tops...i havent heard back from Venolia or Ross, yet....

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You'll do fine with JE, I use them in my Stock Eliminator engines, with Total Seal rings (I buy my oil rings direct from Speed Pro) and Trend wrist pins, with Kramm-Lox wire pin locks. My JE rep is Rick Leininger. I do buy from CP as well, they did my Super Stock pistons for the 396, they're good people, my rep there is Ed Urcis. H.M. Elliott coats all of my piston skirts, and my bearings, regardless of brand.

By the way, before placing an order on pistons, speak with your ring supplier and get the exact groove sizes they want for their ring package. I have Keith at Total Seal give me the dimensions he wants, and copy my piston rep on the emails so everyone is on the same page.

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Thanks for the info, Alan... much appreciated...

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My take is that JE took TRW pistons and copied them with some design improvements. So if TRW got the valve notches in the right place, then your OK. Unfortunately that is not always true.
CP came along and used factory OEM blueprints. CP found that TRW pistons were sometimes off. Being that P/V clearance is critical, that could be a big deal. And when CP started, they had the latest and greatest ring groove cutting fixtures. I do not know if JE has invested in the latest machinery for that operation but as you know, ring clearance is crucial to performance.
The bottom line, and this is just my opinion, there is a reason why you are seeing a 50% price difference. Ask these questions when you call them back.
You might also call Diamond or even Weisco. I have experience with Diamond but not with Weisco.

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Thanks Jeff.... alot to learn, building a Stocker engine... some of you guys have been at it awhile... I turn 44, in a few months, and this is my 1st attempt. Gonna see what i can do, on a fairly tight budget... Hope to be at 2014 Indy points meet...i only live an hour from there! Shortblock goin to machine shop in a couple weeks... Tryin' to research pistons, dont wanna waste any money on the bottom end...

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Brent,

As you are finding out everything cost motor for Pontiac's ... They don't make that many & that drives up the price ... I would shop around for a used shortblock to start & go from there .. Good Luck with your project.

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My experience was that switching from TRW pistons on my first stocker engine to CP piston technology made a world of difference! We had flogged the TRW engine extensively to a best of 11.39 on the then 12.00 index in E/SA. Cal Method advised me to ditch the old school TRW's, and get CP pistons with new technology and a stocker ring package, modern skirt design and extremely accurate ring land machining. After the changes, we eventually got to a best of 10.73. Not saying it was all in the pistons/rings, but they improved the ring seal and lowered drag so much that we could then rpm higher, tune differently, gear differently and the engine became tuneable and responsive to other changes. In my opinion, optimal ring seal is crucial. If you are building to go fast, you need the best parts and machine work here to make everything else effective. If you are building this engine wanting to go a long way under the index, start with the good piston/ring combination and optimize the short block. Later you can build on that good foundation, it's only $500. difference! When you consider all the other machine work, parts and labor you will need this is money well spent.
Otherwise, you may be limited in how far you can get and have to either be satisfied with slower times or building another better short block later, as we had to do. Cheaper in the end to do it once using the best parts. Not knocking the JE or other new piston brands, but the CP are definitely an excellent piston, just my two cents....

Grant Eldridge
E/SA 6650
National Record Holder 2006/2011

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Thanks Grant... i hear what you are sayin... I want to do the best shortblock that i can... i may have to save a couple more bucks and go with CP... I just want to know what most of the guys are running... im definitely leaning toward CP... Hard to believe, that Venolia or JE, wouldnt have it together, like CP... considering how long theyve been in business.

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JE has it together. Their ring grooves are as good as anyone's. Their skirt design is excellent. And no, they are not making a TRW copy, not even close. They make a state of the art piston. I use both CP and JE, and if JE pistons were not every bit as good as JE, or CP pistons were not every bit as good as JE, I would not use the lesser brand.

Diamond will make a Stock Eliminator piston. They make good pistons. but if they do not have one on the shelf, you will pay for development costs, and you'll wait for them to submit, and NHRA to approve. Wiseco will do the same, but once again, you pay, and you wait.

I have been through the NHRA approval process, personally. Think root canal. With no anesthetic. It took nine months, and NHRA approved one design and set of dimensions, then crawfished/backpedaled, and we started all over.

One other thing. Last year, we ran into a problem with an engine early in the year ( I won't say what happened, just that it wasn't one of my engines) and I needed to build a new engine "from scratch". Rick and JE stepped up, I got a set of new pistons, with the latest and greatest of everything, I got them in two weeks, and I did not have to pay any expedite fees. That engine was on the dyno nearly a month ahead of schedule, made great power, and the ring seal was perfect. There is no question in my mind about the quality or service from JE, nor about the excellence in design.

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To be more clear on my prior post, I was specifically referring to the valve pockets ONLY on the JE pistons. And to be fair to JE, that was years ago (about the time that CP was new to our market) and JE may have fixed the issue. In fact, they may be cutting the ring lands with a laser by now. So ask.

I suppose the question to ask any piston maker is a) what are the control tolerances on the ring lands, and b) what defines the valve notch (or dome or dish as it may be)? There's a lot more to it as well. How is the skirt ground?
And some pistons will be perfectly legal yet yield a higher compression ratio.

Realistically, you should have your machinist order the pistons and ask all the questions. If he's an experienced engine builder and knows how to make power, let him do what he has to do. And you have to take into account bore diameter and ring package availability. I've spent upwards of $1200 on rings because they were a bastard size. Now that NHRA allows a larger bore size than in the past, it's worked out for me as I can now get something closer to the common 4.250". That will save a lot of money!

You gotta take it all in and I'd say the last consideration should be the price!
Ring seal...ring seal...ring seal!

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Luckily, i have a very experienced machinist, in the Stocker world, doing my engine....Bill Smith, Muncie, Indiana... He has done several Pontiacs, in the past...and they have all set records...so, i think i will be ok... And, yea...i know ring seal is very important. Its amazing how different things are, between a cheap bracket engine, and a Stocker engine. Ive always wanted to do this, and i know its gonna be costly. That being said, i will do the best shortblock , that i can. I will build from it... Im sure i wont hit the #'s that the rest of the E and F cars are hittin, right off the bat, but, if it were easy, everybody could do it, right? :)
I appreciate all the feedback... Its guys like y'all, that can speed this process up, a ton, and not let guys like me, make too many costly mistakes...

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You should contact the McKinneys if you are close to Muncie.

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They are good friends of mine... have known them most of my life... Unfortunately, Roy passed away in 2009... Mike still races(along with his son Marty), they dont run class anymore. But, their E/S bird(Truman's original car) sure ran good... Bill Smith(the guy thats doin mine)done some of their class engines... I grew up watching them run...

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Which 400 are you building? I think you have a '68 Firebird so I think the one to build is the RAII. I know those '69's with the RAIV haul some serious MPH behind their tails! They get the clutch right and they will just about have the quickest in class.

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Shoot, Jeff... i cant afford any Ram Air II stuff...hehe... im building the 330hp dport combo... E/SA natural... may add weight for ''F"... not sure yet...

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The Ram2 is a good combo, the problem is the heads are almost impossible to find. When you do they are 2500.00 +. The D port combo is a good combo still.

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Ring seal on a 4.25" AMC ! Good Luck !
Better have that block filled solid to the deck.
And yes I speak from experiance.
BTW JE is now owned by Weisco.

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Jeff,
I believe what you are talking about on valve pockets is on TRW pistons most of them the valve pockets are'nt machined they are made when piston is forged,so pockets vary in depth and location.They vary because they are there before rest of piston is machined.
Anyone that has ever flycut a piston w/pockets forged will tell you they are inconsistent for depth and location.
I'm sure JE or any other piston maker would'nt rely on a piston with forged valve pockets to locate there valve pockets,all that info is going to come from there programs that will have valve pocket locations,spacing etc.
Mike Taylor 3601

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Jeff, you looking for a 4.25" thick wall AMC block ?
I happen to have one of the original race blocks on the shelf.
John

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Yeah, i havent seen a pic of any of these pistons... I wonder if the valve reliefs are all machined...?

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I have 4-5 sets of the 16's and 62's, that are legal for my combo...and 3 intake manifolds... I think the Ram Air2's will have to wait...hehe...
Besides, there isnt that much difference in E.T. (maybe a few tenths, or so..), not worth it , for me... and You'd be down in 'C', with, even faster combo's... I dont wanna be embarrassed any more, than i already will be ...hehe:o

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Filled to the bottom of the water outlets and .070" over and 1-2% leak down.
After close to 100 runs and we were looking at worst case 4%. That's my experience!

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I would think RAII heads would be a bargain at $2500! I'm no Pontiac expert but I'm pretty sure they are much rarer than the RAIV (Todd's engine, right?) heads and they seem to be $2500-$3500.
And that's why I'm on your guys side of the fence. There's no reason NHRA shouldn't allow the Edelbrock head as a RA replacement. On the top of my head, I can't think of a more expensive OEM head than the RA heads. Geez, I once bought a restored 1969 RAIV 4-speed Quadrajet for $2800 and flipped it for $3500! Friends thought I was off the deep end spending that kind of money on a speculation. Glad it panned out...

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Todd is allowed RA2, they were available as 1968 1/2...RA4 didnt come out until 1969... even though the heads are same design, the 4's are bigger than the 2's and the 69 engine runs an aluminum manifold. I dont know, if it were up to me, there would be no aftermarket blocks/heads , in class. I know its been gettin crazy for a long time, but , the blocks that they allow, now, are insane... I have 6-7 400 blocks, all which are obsolete, if i ever want to run with Burton's and a few guys like that... but, thats not even an option. I cant believe how fast these cars are getting. I sold a '72 H.O. carb , for 1450.00... Probably could have gotten more, on ebay, but, i saw a guy wanting one, and shot him a price...he bought it. I wish i could find a few more of those! hehe.

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Oh...I thought Todd had a '69 'Bird. I see he can go 127 MPH so that tells me he's making buckoo power!

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Yea, Todd has an awesome car... and im sure he is gonna run some fast #'s, when he gets it back out...

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Todd`s car is a `68 Ram Air II car.I ran that combo last year and it`s worth more than a few tenths over the D-port combo.

As for the pistons Brett,you ain`t gonna lose 6 tenths if you do end up running TRW pistons.

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I agree with Adam , Brent. The TRW's will not be that bad. It's more important to be out and learning the car then waiting another year for 1000 + CP's. The right rings and shortblock setup is very important and will make a big difference in power.



I've been a 126 with my car. Adam has made the fastest runs with a Stickshift and a Ram 2 combo. I saw him go 10.47 127.00. His car flies and is show quality. I'll be out this year, just happy to be racing. I'm not sure anybody can run with Byrd or Duzac in D. But it will be fun to try. I'm sure Jeff Lee Will be fast as well.

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Too much Pontiac love going on here.....just kidding guys.

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That's where I messed up, it's Adam that has the RAIV and Brent has the RAII. Either way, 126-127 is some fast MPH in D! I was 125 in D/S before so I'm guessing I'll be 126-127 in D/S. New intake, carb and cam plus Rob's trickest clutch this go around. Looks like dyno time by mid-April. At that point I can stop guessing. Of course they've shut down 2 out of 3 tracks in Arizona and that sure doesn't make it easy...:mad:

I know I've said it before, I had a RAIV '69 GTO with a 4-speed and factory 4.33's. It was one sweet car. I almost can't imagine that drivetrain in a '69 Firebird back in the day on F70's! I'd sure like to have one but that sure is not in the budget!

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Scott Burton has a`70 car that`s a Ram Air IV car nobody I know right now is racing a `69 Ram Air IV car.

Todd and I have the Ram Air II stuff in `68 cars.

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Had a neighbor with a '69 bird with a 400 3 speed stick. I love the look of those cars and wouldn't mind owning one now ;) Was it common for Pontiac to use three speeds in their manual transmissions? My buddies '71 GTO also had a three speed stick.

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Really??? I think I just made a new best friend. I agree with Todd and Adam on the TRW's. We ran them with stock rods no less until this year. The car would run .3-.4 under in "E". We spent the majority of the time working on the transmission, convertor and suspension then redid the short block.

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Might try Ross pistons. They are usually less expensive than the CP piston, usually $675 a set through Butler. For this type of application they will want the ring set prior to making the piston or they did when I had a set made a few years back. They are NHRA approved as well. They are more expensive than the TRW however.

Scott

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Been 10.60`s in E/S with 20 year old TRW`s.I heard the quality of the new stuff isn`t as good as the older stuff.Made in Mexico now.

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Todd, What hp are those Pontiac combinations now ?

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RA II is now at 340 hp.

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Ross is all I use in my Pontiac motors. However I pay a lot more than $675 I buy them with their low friction Teflon impregnated hard anodizing that adds about $200 I get mine through SD Performance. I highly recommend the coating as it’s even in the ring lands so the lands never wear. As for the quality I didn’t know they are being made in Mexico now but by the measurement data they provide with the pistons I see no issues. For rings talk to Keith at Total Seal for about $400 he will set you up with a great low drag set with gas ported spacers. As for Rods cheap aftermarket like Eagle work just fine. These Pontiac stocker motors don’t spin that high that you would need something like a Manley. As for this compared to TRW pistons with stock rods, there is a big weight advantage with the approved aftermarket rods and pistons you can get down close to NHRA speck weight. If I recall correctly the last 400 I did with factory rods and TRW pistons was about 120 grams over minimum, that’s quite a bit in my opinion.

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I have 2 sets of the older ones, one set, New in the box... the other ones are in an engine... these arent the coated ones... But i still want to go with a little better piston... Like Todd and Adam are saying, there is no reason that i cant get the thing runnin, and figure it out... My main goal is to see .5 under the index... I know dang good and well, i dont have the funds to worry about winning class... but i think i have the money to build a consistent car... thats the main thing, at this point...

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Thanks for the info, Bill!