Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

For crying out loud.....what is it going to take to get me into the high 1.20s? Stuck in the low to mid 1.30s. I feel like I should be able to get consistantly in the 1.20s , but no luck.
Leaf springs and floaters / ladders is the current setup.
Is a 4 link the only way?
Realize , its a manual trans...........

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

1. what's your best 60 foot to date in what weather and at what track?

2. are you dead hooking or turning the tire on the launch?

3. need to know EVERY detail of the car/combo, from front to back, top to bottom including.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

I've seen .04 or more difference in 60' times just because of differences in the timing systems and rollout from one track to another. Don't get too stuck on numbers. It's all relative.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

Ed , thats a headfull of questions....the short answers are:
1.30 ( 1.33 avg ) at Reynolds and Commerce.
Tough for me to answer 2 , watch video , you be the judge :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeHwn...ature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOg0E...ature=youtu.be
You already know most of the other "details".
This could be a clutch tuning issue , but I'm beginning to think a 4 link is the only way to achieve the kind of 60s I'm after.......

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

Chassis tuning should be different for an automatic / converter application , I'm assuming through the way they apply power ,but I'm not sure.
It may just come down to the old leaf suspension I have ( with floaters of course ). The shocks are Afco double adjustables rear , singles / front.
Understand I've had a variety of shocks and I.C. ride height changes but no "brass ring ".

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

Joe, call me when you run another 1.30 and I'll get you a 1.29.:)

In your mind does that get you the brass ring or are you wanting a 1.20's every pass regardless of weather/track conditions?

It may be there but without in depth review of your car/combo, it';s all just a guess.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

I would consider a range from a 1.26 or so to a 1.30 to be acceptable.
On every pass.........
It would be nice to get some SS stick guys to reply as well.......in particular the SS/B thru F cars

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

good luck with that request.

Anyway if you want me to critique your combo give me a call.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

Set the car in the lights with the line loc. If the car is rolling that is not helping you at all. Sounds like you are sledgehammering the clutch on the leave and the gearshift. a stickshift normally doesn't 60ft like an automatic no matter what you do. Our ET picks up after the 330 on. Looks like your shifting that car 5 ft before the 60 ft clock. You may have a little to much 1st gear in it to acomplish what you are looking to do. What ET are you running? what kind of 8th time and MPH are you running. That car looks like fun to drive.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

Those 2 passes were a 9.51 and 9.53 back to back.......regardless , no matter WHAT I've done in the past it wont sixty like I want.......at 3000lbs and leaf springs I'm beginning to think thats about where it ends........
also at a 3.05 low and 5.86 I would think the gears are pretty close.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

Eighth times are 6.02 and 6.04 @113 on those passes.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

You might be able to take a little first gear and slip the clutch some. It looks like you have plenty of engine to do what you want.
If you think you are exactly where you need to be to get to your goal maybe try leaving on the valve spring, that might get you there once. I tried it at Etown, not on purpose though. It made alot of noise and tighend up the clutch more then I wanted it, but it sounded cool. If that dont work leave in a different spot. Good luck

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

I don't want to get too deep into this stick shift discussion, but I will say .
Going to a 3.05 low from say, a 2.96, doesn't necessarily give you a quicker 60' ...(or MPH)

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

On the first video I notice your a) Seems like your dragging too much water after the burnout. b) having a hard time keeping it running and c) you seem content in keeping at or near idle and then going to WOT at the very last instance. Your not allowing the levers to work as they should. RPM needs to be elevated after you set the stage light and then hit WOT before launching. It's a race car, quit with the idle stuff!

On the second video, your doing the burnout too far past the water box. Slicks should be just outside of the edge of the water box. Dumping the clutch where it is so much dryer is hard on the clutch; creates to much heat.

Then same as first paragraph.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

My point is that if an engine makes some tq, you can use it. If you have to shift 1st gear in 30 ft there isn't much you can adjust, because it happens way to fast. The clutch mostlikely doesn't matter in something like that.
I should have stayed out of this to be honest. There is as much point me commenting, as what he is trying to do with that car. I have enough problems with my own program, without trying to solve another.
Keep pulling gears and try to keep it out of the ditch.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

It seems you have quite a bit more power than my 3100 lb Ford FE powered Fairmont, but its not working as well. My Fairmont weighs 3100 with me in it, and also has ladder bars, albeit with Art Morrisons budget coil springs setup, which uses normal Gabrial Strider 3 position shocks. My car normally runs low 10s at 132mph (best of 9.972), but it has gone a few 1.29 60 foots, normally in the low 1.3s. My best 1/8th mile numbers are a 6.291@ 107.65 Since my Ford 427/428s are not high revvers, I only use 4.56-4.88 gears, but I do have a 3.19 low gear in the Jerico. I also have a McLeod Soft Lok clutch. So it seems like you are certainly leaving some on the table, either in the clutch, chassis, or driving. Your car is not much ighter, and you go much quicker and faster, so I agree, your 60 ft times should be better too.What kind of RPM are you leaving at? I normally dump the clutch at around 6000-6200 RPM, and shift at the same.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

I'm with Todd, there's typically not much gained in these discussions. I just wanted to point out the possibility of gaining something by adjusting the driving method. The clutch & shock adjustments should follow next.
I'm betting there is more reductions in 60' times without having to go through the expense of a 4-link.
And 330' times are more relevant with a stick car.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

After watching the two videos I am sure your biggest gain in 60' would be to get the car to stop rolling after you are staged, the car probably rolled a good 6" after your were staged before the actual launch. I see that as a major consistency issue the way the car never stops rolling after you are staged. The shallower you stage the quicker your 60' time will be to and your reaction time will be slower also. Just ask the great Chuck Downing about how much staging slow and shallow has changed his reaction times this year.
Try a little more air gap and staging with some brake pressure using the line lock.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

I like the feedback and how some of you dont pull any punches ( LOL ).
Well , the "creeping" of the car thru air gap or ? is an anomaly......that in itself is unusual and about to be corrected.
If the car sits in the water during the burn out it just doesn't work as well........hasn't in the past anyway , and thats why that "tradition" has carried over to this day........perhaps I can re- think that.
As I have stated previously , as I have had this car for a long time,MOST of the suggestions have been tried in the past...... HOWEVER , the results are the same. I will be freshening the clutch ........at that point I will have a new disc and fresh heat shield. If taking out base and adding c'weight is the answer ..so be it. The suggestion to use a taller first gear ( or is it lower, LOL ) is a consideration ( a 2.xx )........
I am still listening.............and thanks for the suggestions.

BTW , that video was added to answer Bigleys question.....not to be evaluated in the presumption that thats typical of the cars behavior.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

clutch, rpm, susp, tire.... Our 3300lbs sled cuts high 1.20s on a good track and low 1.30s on a greasy track...we took the car to one of the worst tracks in the country and cut a 1.27 by tuning,tuning, tuning...

I agree with Brad, first off stop the thing from rolling...

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

I like to stop with the tires at the edge of the water then stab the clutch before the tires grab and put excessive heat in the clutch. So I would recommend that as well as staging as shallow as possible. The other two biggest factors I see is that the wheelie bars appear to be slapping the ground at launch and unloading the rear-end and causing the tires to spin a lot more than I would want. The other thing is that the rear suspension doesn't appear to be separating and planting the tire. So I would try to keep the heat out of the clutch during the burnout, stage as shallow as possible with some break pressure to hold the car still, raise the wheelie bars so they aren't unloading the rear suspension and if that doesn't get you there see what you can do about getting the rear suspension to separate to help plant the tire then look at taking some clutch out of it if that doesn't get you there. Last but not least put a set of new M/T tires on it. Just my .02

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

Nobody said anything about doing a burnout IN the water.
What's the pinion angle and whatever that # is, are you 110% sure you have measured it correctly?

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

So , whats your suggestion on pinion angle?
BTW , what are the best 60's from the AMX? For comparison.....do tell.......

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

[quote ]I agree with Brad, first off stop the thing from rolling...[/quote]

Naturally , The clutch is getting attention now........like I said...that video is not typical..........

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

incrementals on one of those runs:
.077
1.33
3.865
6.026
113.21
7.905
9.510
139.86

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

Don't have any of the old tickets Joespanova, but my nova we talked about was similiar I remember incrementals.

Usaully around 1.27 60' best remember is 1.26
best 330' remember is 3.94
best 660' remember 6.12 @ 109
Had 3.25 1st. 5.57 rear left @ 8800 shifted @ 8200 just past 60' timer had Mc leod soft loc w base all the way down 300 lbs (i believe) and no counterweight added.
I don't know what rpm you crank but,I think you said 3.25/5.86,I'm guessing it would take around 9000-9500 shift point to clear 60' in low gear

You'll probaly find @ least .05 quicker or more by being shallow staged,not to mention there's no way to race w/ car moving RT/ET will be all over the place,if you run full tree just stage @ idle and set line loc,no reason to bring engine up while staging on full .500 tree,get staged locked it down then you can zing it.
if running pro tree get brake pressure gauge and find the right pressure for you,so you can stage w/rpm up

You have to get car to sit still in beams,have positive stop for clutch,and same RPM everytime to make car consistent @ET,RT
You need positive stop on clutch,so air gap is same everytime(start@ .050'' if shifting w/clutch) so car will hit the tires the same,RT's will be consistent,I use micro switch on stop to operate line loc,so I don't have to release it,if use 2 step hook there also
Mike Taylor3601

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

Joe, not to beat a dead horse but this^^^ is everything and must be achieved before doing anything else.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

OK guys...thanks , really I appreciate the suggestions.................BUT FOR THE 4th TIME..........The car generally/ make that ALWAYS , until those videos......... does NOT have a history of rolling in the beams!Apparently I have to get in the bellhousing and see whats going on , but that again is NOT typical.......................I knew it was creeping as I could feel it dragging the clutch , probaly from too much heat or air gap or both ..........BUT as I've stated ( how many times , LOL ) in its entire life I have NEVER had a 1.20 anything regardless of shallow staging , clutch not dragging etc etc........so I was beginning to think this old chassis ( or TYPE of suspension ) just won't...........
You guys are evaluating the car's performane based on 2 videos...that wasn't my intent . Again , Ed asked a question....I said see for yourself with the videos...........I never asked anyone to "critique" the car based on those videos.......of which everyone seems to be doing , LOL.
At the risk of sounding "arrogant" which I hope I'm not.......I have been driving stick drag cars ever since I earned my drivers license .....some of the replies are academic .............this thread is NOT please evaluate these videos.........it IS however about "is it unrealistic to expect" an older leaf sprung / ladder bar, back half car to see consistant 1.2XX sixty foot times

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

There is no comparison as my car has a Cal-Track (bars & springs) set-up with AFCO shocks and 9" wide slicks. But with a 634 HP SS engine it had consistent 1.38 60' times, best ET was 10.02 @ 133 in SS/H @ 3160 minimum. Pinion angle was 5*. And then we found out what was wrong with the chassis and it's been parked since.

I have run ladder bar cars with coil-over shocks and 11.5 wide slicks and would suggest a minimum of 5* to 6* pinion angle. Yes I know, that's 1* to 2* more than most would say. But I've never had a car with traction problems.
But that means I've never had enough HP...:eek:

There's a video of my car on YouTube. Rob Youngblood saw it and noticed I had too much line-lock pressure as I was having to force the car to the final stage light. I was running 250#'s. He suggested 100-150#'s as bumping it in like I was tears up the clutch. I took his suggestion and it worked a lot better.
There's a lot of good advice here and just like building a S/SS engine and car, all those little things do ad up. It's the guy's that poo-poo little ideas that never really have a lot to show in the end. And wonder why the guy in the other lane is so much faster.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

[QUOTE=Jeff Lee;385957] And then we found out what was wrong with the chassis and it's been parked since.

QUOTE]

so bad it was never fixed?

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

You forgot to tell them you did that with the back tires. Lol
Chuck

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

Chassis looks to stiff. Does not seem to plant the back tires. I would guess something is in a bind in your rear suspension. You have plenty of power. With the short times you have posted mid 1.20 60 Ft times should not be a problem. Check all of your angles on the ladder bars and pinion angle. Loosen the rear shocks and let the suspension work. Is that a mono leaf spring?

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

[quote=joespanova;385959]New engine was supposed to be on the dyno two days ago but as usual, the shop has something ahead of me. Once that's done, fix the chassis. The driver side floor at front leaf spring mount was pushed up the rocker panel.
Adding Calvert single wheelie bar and fix this and that and go racing. But today it's 112* outside so motivation to work outside is super low!

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

Yes........

and I can definately stand to loosen the rear shocks...........I had a suspicion they may be too tight.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

I also want to add.........nothing is "in a bind" , both ladder bar front bolts are always loose , floaters are oiled ( basically WD-40 ) and springs have poly / graphite bushings ......everything moves freely.

In the pic below everything is as now with the exception being the Afco double adjustables it now has......

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

What gear box are you running in the nova?

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

Eastexas Racecars can fix that for you. Some of the best money I ever spent. My SS/JA car, when I have the extra weight out of it, goes 1.26/1.28 all the time. Immediate problem was curing red lights. Didn't realize it reacted so slow until first time I let go of the button when I got it back. People bring cars from both coasts to those guys. Every time I go there, I see another big name car from a long way off.

Re: Impossible to achieve high 1.20s sixties
 

x2