battery charging between rounds?
 

I see Stockers charging battery between rounds and wonder if that is necessary on a "street car"? Our Pure Stocker still has the OEM alternator, belt, etc. which we run. I've heard that if the alternator needs to charge the system it can possibly cost you a tenth. If we get a good charge between runs will that keep the alternator from affecting ET?

Thanks.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Race engines burn gasoline, but race cars run on electricity. We charge our batteries at 40 amps during cool down, and then at 10 amps until we go to the lanes. Charging between rounds solves or prevents problems before they happen.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Tar,

for sure there is no harm in charging battery between runs. By doing so, the battery never becomes depleted and the alternator only has a small load when moving down track.

One key, keep good records. I do not expect the performance would be much different between charging and not charging but at least in theory there could be a small difference.

The goal of course, is consistent performance. If you run the fan with engine off it seems reasonable to replenish that battery reserve so the alternator does not have to do that during a run.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

So something like this would be good?

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...0360&ppt=C0005

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Thats the exact charger I use on my bracket car and my soon to be completed stocker.. I got a lecture about it last week because I use Optima batteries and its not supposed to be good for them. I also charge at 40 amps normally between rounds and then kick it down to the10 amp setting for a few min after I turn the fans and pump off just to make sure. The one thing I do like about it (and I know this is not right) but in the late rounds around here sometimes we only have a few min to get back to the lanes. Especially when I am still in competition in both classes that I run with the same car. What that charger allows me to do is kick it up on the engine start setting and gives me about 16 volts. Again I know its "wrong" but it does cool the engine really FAST when necessary on a short turn around. I have only had one failure of a optima battery since in the last 12-13 years doing this.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

X2 Jim


.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

I charge battery on my pure stocker to make up for running electric fans to cool between rounds.Usauly let fans cools radiator, then start for few seconds to move cool water from radiator to block,since don't have a electric water pump to circulate,can start and watch temp gauge come down then shutoff and cool radiator again.
Tar Heel do you have restrictor in place of thermostat?
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Which Optima battery is recommended for a car with an alternator? electric fuel pump, but belt driven cooling fan still. 70 Chevelle.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Optima Red Top.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

No, it has a 160 thermostat in it. It's still a street car if you will. This summer we did the major changes to get it to run under ... gears, converter, cam, headers, wheels/tires, tune, etc. Now we can start tweaking and an electric water pump is next this winter and we'll do the plate then.

Scott

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Scott, you might try (to go fast for heads-ups) keeping the engine over 180 deg, and icing the intake manifold. On my chassis dyno the all aluminium LS engines don't respond to lower coolant temps like a normal sbc, LT1, etc. They were more forgiving, making the same power between 180 & 200 deg. Guys at the local test n tunes at the track hot lap their cars without slowing down at all. I would try a 180 'stat if I were you.
Sure be worth testing.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Scott,
In Pure Stock no electric pumps or drives.
from page 47 2013 rule book
FAN,GENERATOR,WATER PUMP: Must be connected and operable at all times.Belts must be tight enough to drive equipment in a satisfactory manner and without excessive or noticable slippage. Must retain original factory produced fan.Stock size and material pulley must be retained. Water pump must remain stock. Electric fan may be added.

Mike Taylor 3601

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Ed,
I was wondering would those LS's your talking about not responding to cooler water temp, could that be in the tuning? could they be rich and the higher temps lean them down to where they run better?

Mike Taylor 3601

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Mike, it seems to be more aluminum blocks. I first noticed it when I went roundy-round dirt track racing in the '80s. At first around here we had iron block 350"s on gasoline, and most had Brodix heads. They liked to run cool just like my drag cars did. When we went to 410" full blown sprint cars with aluminum blocks I found on the dyno it didn't care for cold water. Liked to run between 180 and about 210. I attributed that to methanol fuel. Later when the LS1 came out, I saw the same thing with them on gasoline. I then thought it was something to do with aluminum blocks. Maybe I'm wrong, but tuning didn't make them like to run any colder. The GM factory computers correct for coolant temps. There is a table for P.E. (WOT) fueling corrections versus coolant temps as well as air temps. I tried tuning for max torque at 160, but if you warm them up the power came up. Guys seem to want to use 160 deg 'stats in those just like they always did with older engines. I usually just set their cooling fans to keep them around 180. I think he should test that on his car. Can't hurt, he may learn someting the others don't know.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

For those that dont need to carry weight, why run the Optima battery @ 38lbs? $187 racer discount.

I've been running this battery in my car for about 7 years @ 26lbs.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Odyssey+Batter...PC925/10002/-1
$180 with racer discount at Jegs.
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc925.htm
Oddyssey is also a military spec battery sold under a different packaging.
I put my Harley trickle charger on it during the week. It cranks my 12:1 385 very quickly.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Thanks Ed. We do ice the intake between runs to keep it from going into heat soak and pulling timing. That's interesting that they make the same power even when they are warmer. Yes, we will experiment with the 180.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

What about the Meziere street pumps for the LS1 Mike? They bolt in the stock location, use the stock belt routing, etc. We already have electric fans on the C5 ... I'll just have to figure out how to turn them on manually between rounds.

Scott

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Don't know who tuned your computer, but properly done it won't pull timing from a hot manifold. Cold manifolds are faster, but you shouldn't have to ice it between rounds in normal "bracket mode". Just when you need every last hundredth.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Scott, all you have to do is install a toggle switch that grounds the fan relays when "on ".
I would not recommend using it all the time. The computer turns them off about 45 MPH because they would block ram air above that speed. They just "windmill" at in the ram air at higher MPH.
I program the fans to come on at a given temp with the car shut off. Turn off is by either temp or time ( seconds). Automatic that way.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

If you don't want to fool around figuring out which wires to ground the fan relays and avoid cutting and splicing the wiring harness. SLP Engeneering out of Toms River NJ used to sell a setup that just plugs into the factory connections and you run the harness with the switch on it inside the car. Casper Electronics might still make them too. The switch has a I think 2 settings one to run like factory and the PCM controls it just like it did from the factory. And the other setting on the switch overrides it to make them run all the time to cool the car down between rounds.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

I forgot about Mez. pumps being setup that way that is good question,I probaly would talk to tech,but I believe the way the wording is it was to prevent electric pumps/drives,however it does'nt say you can't have one.
The way the wording is I think the Mez. pump would fit the rules,if it does I need to find a pump like that for small block chevrolet.

Maybe Jim Woods,Danny Waters,or Terry Bell will chime in on this.

Mike Taylor 3601

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Thanks Mike. That's a good idea about contacting someone in the know and asking. I've found a plug and play device on the Corvette forum that installs in 15 minutes and allows normal "street" operation of the fans and the ability to run them anytime also by pressing a button on a key fob. In my mind, and looking at the wording of the rule book, the Meziere pump is not different as going down to NAPA and buying a replacement pump as it still runs all of the factory belts but it also allows manual operation at the flip of a switch. Boy, if it was legal, that would be the way (with the manual fan switch) to regulate the water temperature even if is was going to be 180 as Ed suggested.

Scott

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Scott, you don't have to change thermostats to test the temp difference, you can control it with the fans. If it likes it you can change it then.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Mike Baker said no to the Electric Water Pump on Pure Stockers.

Even though some of our b-Body racers run them full time on the street.
For safety have a new one in the box in case of failure.
But seem reliable nobody having any problems.

As for the fans.
I use the Relays GM has in the fuse box.
Switching them with a pair of switches on my dash.

In an emergency can use a Bic Pen Cap to manually switch the fans.

Between runs the fans are on and ice the intake.
Use a Honda 2000 generator and Battery charger and using an Optima.
After the run the charger is on 30amps.
10amp for a few minutes after turning fans off.
Let it rest at 3amps.

Going to add a Alternator cut off switch for competition.
Car will lost a full 2 tenths if the Alternator is charging during a run.

Cooler days car will cool down quicker.
Do need more gauges for monitoring temps.

Dan

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

2tenths doesn't make sense. I have tested that a lot. Your possibly too rich. Lower voltage slows injector opening, thus leans the car. You can actually turn the alternator off @ WOT with the factory LT1 PCM. It should not change more than 5 hundredths at the very most with the alternator off or on.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

I document everything.
At Pittsburgh it was hot and miserable.
Between fully cool and hot and the Alternator running, 2 tenths difference.
Maybe right with just the alternator running.
Dialed in accordingly until the next competition run.
The alternator ran to charge the battery from cooling the car down with the fans.
Same thing happened in Richmond.
Cannot get car cool enough to stay consistent without a electric water pump.
The Honda 2000 has an 8 amp charger.
It was not enough to prevent draining the battery.
Now bringing the Battery Charger.

Would be on equal footing if the car had an electric water pump.
8 minute cool down. But have a plan for that.

D

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

2 tenth=you have, or are doing, something wrong. I have never seen pulling the by, with an electric water pump, make 2 tenths. That is killing both the alternator and power steering pump. Might try leaning it down with the alternator working. Hard to imagine, however. being rich enough to find 2 tenths.

You might think about a chiller with the plug-in fittings with the connector in a radiator hose for between round cool downs between rounds? You can buy them, but most of us make them from a small ice chest with a 12 volt sump pump.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

An ice chest and a pump is an idea.
May add an accessory water pump.
Still need dyno tune.
Just have a Bryan Herter tune from Jeff Warren's who dynoed my engine after he built it.

D

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

If Jeff Warren says the air/fuel is OK, it's OK. I don't think you will find anybody else with a V8 seeing 2 tenths difference with the alternator if the battery is properly charged before the run. Makes no sense at all. I wouldn't even tell it. LOL

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

I cool my car no problem have 2 13'' elec fans and stock belt driven pump,just run fans few minutes when radiator feels cool by touch,start engine and exchange water from radiator to block,shut off and run fans till radiator is cool again, my car hardly ever gets above 180 usaully cool back to 120 or so.
I try to cool to a temp I can get to every round.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Mike that is what I always did before I had an electric water pump. Old days, when my hair was still brown, I cooled the radiator with a garden sprayer, then started it up to rotate the water like you said.

I now have a cool down battery (stole the idea from Mike Edwards) and a connector I unplug my water pump and fans from the car, and plug in another battery I built a cable for, which is connected to a charger. That way the fans and water pump don't drain the batteries in the car during cool down.

Have had my wife haul it to the staging lanes (no charger) for cooling it before heads up and for class. Now I have the chiller and the piece with the quick disconnects and flapper in the lower hose I use for that. I use a digital temp gauge so I can hit my temps as close as possible every time. I don't use the chiller for "bracket mode", just the cool down battery.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Ed on my 4 cylinder. I used to slow up a tenth by turning the fans on during a run. The ECU people told me it shouldn't make any difference the ECU is made for anywhere forom 8 to 12 volts. But the car slowed down.
I eventually found the problem. The A 1000 fuel pump didn't like the extra draw from the fans. I raised the fuel pressure a pound or so and now it doesn't care if it's on or off.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Art, your fans should be off during a run. They can not move as much air as ram air at speed. They actually block air flow at higher speeds. If you use a FAST XFI ECU like I do to control your fans it automatically turns the fans off @ WOT. GM ( probably Ford & MOPAR too) shut the fans off about 45 MPH, and just let them "windmill" so as to not restrict air flow through the radiator. That would hurt cooling going down the track, or driving on the highway. If you control your fan with the ECU, you might check with the mfgr, it may shut them off @ WOT also. If not, maybe a button the throttle hits @ WOT to shut it off?

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Art ,I know someone ;-) who had a small limit switch up under the dash on the gas pedal, who had it hooked to a relay that controlled the fan.
As Ed said ,you don't need the fan going down the track, so the fan would be on at all times, even during the burnout, except at WOT.
Another guy ;-) actually incorporated the alternator main feed wire into the same relay.
I know yours truly ,doesn't care to be thinking about a bunch of switches while I'm in the zone..from the burnout box forward.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

I don't have my fans run by the ecu. I could it has the oupts for it but I have an old style switch box that turns the fans on I have a remote to turn them on or off under the hood.
The point I was trying to make was the voltage drop when the fans were on slowed the fuel pump down. The ECU is in open loop (Alpha N ) it a a temperature compensation, but the temp was never a problem (till the wire came off the temp sender one pass and it went full rich one time). The ECU doesn't know what my fuel pressure is so it doesn't adjust. The car was on the lean side in a few boxes to begin with This was before I was able to tune it, the dyno guys just tuned for max power and didn't worry much about the rest. I eventually got it straightend out.
On my list for later this season is to tune the car with the alternator switch off. It's a tiny little motor and I'm sure the alternator is sucking up power going down the track.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Al, are you using 12 volt battery(s)? Mine with 2 16 volt batteries has a slightly higher voltage level going down the track as it did with 12 volts and the alternator charging. My FAST ECU & MSD box loves volts. Runs 15.0 to 15.3 on the data logger, depending on if I let the fans & water pump run in the staging lanes. On 12 volts it was a tick faster with the alternator charging. Did slow it down some with pulleys. Had to have it aligned well to keep belts on at 8500.

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Mark, did you get your Tarus figured out?

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

I'm not sure, Ed I haven't heard how it was acting this week...I'll call you though, as soon as I know.
Thanks for asking

Re: battery charging between rounds?
 

Going up the track alternator on I'm at 14 volts, Alternator off 11 volts

Ed I'm CHEAP. I'm not going to spend the money to go to a 16 volt system. I just put new rings and bearings in it. That exceeded my yearly budget. I'm still running store bought street headers.
I'm planning on selling the car in the not to distant future. So if someone buys it they can do those things.