Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Documented last night on our car and confirmed from another Class racer in KY...the new 12-bolt Pro gears coming from Richmond have the pinion distance stamped incorrectly on the pinion head. First clue will be when checking the distance the numbers will call for about .230 shim lol.

Look for packaging labeled "Made in Italy". Seems Richmond moved their operations to Italy and the workers are having problems converting from their metric system. My guess is this is going to be expensive for Richmond as the problem surely extends further than just the 12-bolt versions.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Wow! Going to do it the old fashioned way, using the pattern. Going to make set up go a little slower.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

My predictions are there are going to be a lot of "free" sets of gears flying out of Richmond shortly...major mistake...heads will roll.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Richmond was bought out by Motive at least a year ago and manufacturing was moved over seas.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

The "Italian" stock just recently made it's debut...evidenced by the recent unavailability of gears through major vendors. ;)

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

A few years ago I ran into the same problem with Richmond Pro gears, their gear cutting machine was setup wrong and I could not get the gear pattern anywhere right but
ran them one time. Called Richmond and talked with their engineer and he would send another set to Jeg's. Their pattern was dead on where it was supposed to be and are still running good some years later, I have the equipment and always do my own Ring and Pinion gears setup. Sorry to hear Richmond went offshore. BUMMER

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Can figure pinion depth using master housing dimension.
Measure pinion head thickness -(where bearing sets against pinion to back of pinion,same place you check center distance from) then subtract pinion head thickness from master housing dimension,that will give pinion depth checking distance.
Can't remember 12 bolt master dimension off top of my head,but you can find easy on line or richmond tech line etc.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Getting tired of these moves and out-sourcing....HEY Motive....bring gear production
back to the USA!....WANT a "made in USA" product...in my Chevrolet race car!

American JOBS at stake!

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

For the vast majority of OE 12 bolt housings, start with a 0.035" shim on the pinion. Odds are, you'll be within 0.005" of where you need to be. If you're taking a similar gear out, use the shim from the previous pinion, and you'll be within spitting distance.

The numbers they give you are the opinions of the guy running the Gleason machine they test the gears on. What matters is the pattern.

And yeah, unfortunately, Richmond hasn't been great lately, and Motive buying them is quite unlikely to improve that.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

A rear pinion bearing honed out to a slip fit would be handy for finding the correct pattern. I've heard of them. I've never seen one.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

We made ours because we do so many in my shop. The RAYTECH tool is a big help too.

http://www.ratechmfg.com/toc.htm

Talk to Mary there.

Don't work for them, have used them and I am just passing along the info

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Thanks Todd! I have an old Zoom Gear set up tool. (Bought it new, I'm old) Never tried to hone one myself. I think they used to sell them, but never found one to buy.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

The pinion set up tool that T&D makes is probably the best tool you can get. With the information that is provided with the tool you can figure all the necessary dimentions in the pinion set up process with no information from the gear manufacture. Now most of the readers of this site are going to be using a 10 bolt or 12 bolt gm, 9" ford or a Dana. All of these styles of rear ends are supported by this tool. If you get into a 10.25 or 10.50 sterling housing which can be found in most of your Ford F250 pickups I have found no one makes a set up tool or a pinion bearing pulling tool for these rears. Randys ring and pinion, Raytech and some other companies sell a set up pinion bearing that is honed out so you can set the pinion up by trial and error and not damaging the bearing by pressing it on and trying to remove it. What I have found with the gear manufactures most of this stuff is comming from over seas, CHINA, and the tolerances and spec suck. I know everyone remembers the chile Goodyear tires. When you get a new gear check, check, check every dimention in the protduct that you are getting. Just my 2 cents worth. Good luck

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

I have had good results with Motive gears made in Italy. This scribing error may not be such a big deal--I can't imagine someone setting up gears and not bothering to check the pattern. The Richmond tooling was worn out so Motive decided to go with their Italian supplier for both brands after buying Richmond.

An auto machine shop with a connecting rod rebuilding hone can easily open the ID of a bearing to use as a slip fit trial pinion bearing.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

May be they will be available at Poppa Johns with any full size pizza.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Easy to do...I honed one when I was racing...and set up several rears with it.

Good thing I bought my 12-bolt gears when I did...my 5.86 was used with low runs,
and my 6.14 I bought NEW from Moroso...when ring & pinions were in the catalog....

That was a LONG time ago...so they were US-built...when I checked the Moroso's...
noticed that they were re-boxed Richmonds....no big deal!

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

If you know anyone who can hone connecting rods, they probably have a mandrel that will hone a pinion bearing. They probably won't like doing it.

Another option is to get shims that go behind the race, in the case. You can take the race out once or twice without hurting anything, if you're careful. Use a brass drift to take it out, and the correct diameter bearing driver to put it in.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

I have had the same experience. We use some Italian made gears in heavy duty stuff that run fine.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Forget about pinion depth dimensions. It's all about pattern. I purchased that td tool. Waste of money! I stopped checking pinion depth numbers 20 years ago and haven't had any problems at all.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

I made a slip fit bearing 25 years ago and still use it. Thing is a grossly inaccurate pinion engraving is about as useful as none at all...you still need a base or starting point.

The pinion in question has a checking distance of 2.534 on the head. It is now patterned and installed.

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps5b009816.jpg

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Well...in addition to Motive gear, you will have to ask a lot of other companies to do so. The company that makes the gears for motive also a manufacturer for gears used in helicopter gear boxes built in the USA and they also make gears for the automotive OEM's.
If you have quality escapements in the automotive and aerospace industries that use AS9100 quality specs, you will have them too in aftermarket products.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Started doing this a couple of years ago and have good success. Use the old shims and check the pattern and they are usual right on. The only one that I ran across was in a Jeep that a shop tried to setup....it was a mess. Didn't have the old shims took awhile to figure that one.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Good info, Tod - I wish I had heard of them before I did my 12-bolt. What about their "Smart Sleeve?" They say duty cycle is better than a spacer and shims. http://www.ratechmfg.com/smart%20sleeve.htm
That would eliminate the idea of honing a bearing.
As a side note, I bought used gears when I was putting the car together. When I went to press the pinion bearing on, it just slid over by hand. Turns out the previous owner's setup guy takes a little off all his pinions to make setup easier. A few people predicted disaster at the time, but after 60 or so runs this year the oil came out clean and the pattern looks great.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Richmond stuff has been questionable for a number of years. The Motive, Italian stuff, on the other hand, has been good. Nice finish, easy to set up, nice looking pattern. I was glad to hear Motive bought Richmond. According to their website, Motive is a division of Midwest Truck and Auto Parts in Chicago. Who knows if it's American owned. The no name Chinese stuff is to be avoided.

I have set up tools, but rarely use them. They would get it close, but I found I always had to fudge it one way or the other a little bit. 1 or 2 thou makes a difference in the pattern. Typically, I just start with what came out of the old set-up and work from there. If I don't have that, I start with a typical shim for that rear. On a 12 bolt, it would be a .025. I like to use the ones under the bearing race or I will polish the pinion to get a semi-light press fit on the bearing so that it comes off with no damage. I set up according to the pattern. That's the final determining factor anyway. Randy's has a nice selection of tools and quality parts.

ETA...On anything other than a normal street car, it gets an adjustable solid spacer kit for pinion preload.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

It's a given that most here already know how to pattern a gear. The issue is spec's provided by a manufacturer that are nearly a 1/4" off. Imagine if a camshaft or another critical part was shipped with similar wacked spec's...just not acceptable by today's standards.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

I agree, the numbers should be right since they are based off of being run on a machine. I was just stating that I rarely pay attention to those numbers and would not return a gear set for that reason. If they are obviously machined wrong, then they would go back.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

could the number posted on the pinion be in milimeters? Just a thought. Dyno

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

We pretty much use the smart sleeve and pitch the regular crush sleeves or shim and spacers in most applications. MUCH easier to set preload than the old style crush sleeve.

Alot of their stuff is made there in cincy and pricing is good.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

I may try the "Smart Sleeve" of Ratech's on the next gearset...supposedly more stable with less than half of the normal torque values.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Someone mentioned used gears, just a tip which IMO is important. Before I remove a good uses set, I mark the gear teeth to the pinion teeth so when I install it, it will ride/mesh the same way. Some people say no big deal, but I have never had a problem doing this

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Some stuff leaks through quality once in awhile there's really nothing you can do about it. Unfortunately a lot of companies are cutting jobs and hiring lower cost employees and are training them to just be "button pushers" and count on quality to find every flaw. They don't want to pay the old school guys and girls that actually take pride in what they are building. Really if you are dense enough to install a .250 shim in a pinion your best bet is to go inside the house and don't bother attempting to set gears up. I set a lot of gears up as I'm sure you all do too and I only use the depth as a guide....pattern and lash is the only way. Setup bearings are only good IMO if you are always using the same brand of bearing...bearings have +/- tolerance as well, specially with different brands. SKF is really close and the closest that I can tell without seeing a blueprint on the bearing. I bought a high quality bearing puller and just use the bearing that I'm going to install for setups. PS some of the highest quality gears are cut in Italy...I wouldn't be worried about the quality there. There all hopped up on espresso and have naps in the afternoon so they are always fresh minded! LOL. :p

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

I may be out of touch but when I setup a rear. I have always sanded the pinion shaft where the bearing sits so the bearing slides on by hand, no press fit is needed. Just get some 400 wet/dry paper with some WD40 for lube. It won't take long for the bearing to slide on. Never have any issues.

Re: Richmond Pro gear alert heads-up...
 

Just installed a Motive Gear set in my Dana last night,no problems.Used the old shims as a baseline,gears are very quiet and made in Italy.