History Repeats itself
 

It is pretty cool that the Big 3 American made car manufacturers are back into the Drag Racing scene. Just like they did in the late 60's and early 70's Ford, Chevy, and Dodge vehicles are represented at NHRA events around the country. Big thanks to Ford Motor Company and Jesse Kershaw, Chevrolet and Dr. Jamie Meyers, as well as Dodge/Chrysler and Dale Aldo. These 3 guys show up at most of the NHRA events and cheer on the brands they represent.

Now lets begin discussion about these new age factory drag cars! :D

Jim D'Amore

Re: History Repeats itself
 

I think it's unfortunate that very few actually can appreciate or comprehend the significance of what is currently happening. There was Yenko and Tasca and others from "the good old days" but in 30 years people will be saying the same thing about now. I was too young in the 60's to enjoy the musclecar wars but I'm enjoying today!

A number of years ago people were all saying how great it would be for the factories to become involved again. Then Ford jumped in and everybody screamed about the unfair hp but I think missed the bigger point. Now all three are in and it's only getting better!

I too thank Ford, chebby and mopar for jumping back into it!

Re: History Repeats itself
 

They should put all of their body styles in the guide.

Re: History Repeats itself
 

I agree and they should put the engines that are really available with them. Not just the "crate motors".

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Ford pretty much has :-)

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Really?

I'm not seeing it. There are a couple of entire years missing since 2008.

I was told by NHRA people that Ford refuses to provide specs for most models other than the Cobra Jet program beginning in 2008.

Re: History Repeats itself
 

X1000!! Whatever you can buy at the dealership should be available to race!
Those that have the $$$ to run a CJ won't be effected, they'll run a CJ, but those who can't afford a CJ program could run something else.
Love to see a twin turbo v6 f-150!

Maybe they're concerned of all the AWD and turbo/twin turbo combo's available now? Ecoboost 365hp awd Taurus outrunning a 69 camaro would make too many mad? LOL!

Put them all in the guide, I say!

Re: History Repeats itself
 

If Ford refuses to give NHRA information on the vehicle, what is to stop an individual from putting it in the NHRA guide if the specs can be provided by that individual?

Jim D'Amore

Re: History Repeats itself
 

It doesn't work that way.

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Didn't Ray Golonka get the 77-79 Cadillac's entered in to the guide and engine specs?

Re: History Repeats itself
 

No, they were already in the guide.

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Mike Baker is trying to get a new 2013 V6 Mustang Classified into Pure Stock.

If interested in adding a new car Mike will send you a Classification form.
Just add the information and collaborate with Mike.

FWIW GM is not sending information on the Caddy and other GM Cars.
This was a topic on an earlier posting on Class Racer.

Wonder if NHRA will add the new Impala SS?
Think Racers will have to persist and help IHRA with data.
I feel IHRA will help. Just overwhelmed with other things to do.
Do not think NHRA is interested in seeking these new cars.

I am repeating a rumor so cannot validate but it is said NHRA has not updated the Classification Guide since 2008, except for the new super cars.

I wonder if IHRA would allow a crew of Volunteer Racers to help build Classification Guides?

Dan

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Dan,

so only the car manufacturer can have the specs put into the guide book. Basically they control what type of cars we can race?

Jim D'Amore

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Pretty much!

Re: History Repeats itself
 

I read one topic on here, and overheard another conversation at the track this year. People went to someone at Ford and asked to have some of the other Mustangs put into the Class Guide. The response was "We want CobraJets on the track, racing. Period".

Probably the same for GM and Mopar as well. Pretty sad. A younger person, like me, who goes to the track, watches the Factory SuperCar Showdown or Stock Eliminator and wants to get into Class Racing. They go to NHRA and ask about their own car, and NHRA says "Sorry, your Mustang/Challenger/Camaro//Import/whatever isn't legal to race". The kid asks what he/she has to do, and would basically be told "Go spend six figures on a factory racecar". Since 90+% of todays youth can not afford that, they decide to go race elsewhere. Opportunity lost by NHRA and the OEM's, for not allowing the car(s) that kids DO have, to be able to race with us and no new blood coming into our sport/Classes. Unless it's rich blood. Way to go, dumbasses....

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Let me start by saying that ALL involvement by the Big three in drag racing is GREAT!!!!! and appreciated. However it would be impossible to defend the horsepower ratings and vehicle weights when comparing actual production cars to factory race cars. Some of the factory race combos are rated lower than 70s smog motors or the current production V-6s.
Late model factory race cars can be understood easier as Assault weapons. They are rated and factored NOT to compete but to ASSAULT other combos.

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Dodge now has the street Challenger 5.7 that is in added to the guide.
Dan

Re: History Repeats itself
 

For what it is worth:

I sent an e-mail last week to Mike Baker with IHRA about the 2011-2014 Mustang 3.7 V-6 in Pure Stock.

After finding out that the car is not currently allowed in PS, this is what I asked:

"O.K.
Thanks Mike.
Who would submit the specs ?
Would that be Ford Motor Co. ?
Or....does a racer submit those ?

Thanks,
Alan"


This was his response:

"Ford spec obtained from Ford. Sometimes an interested competitor makes it happen"



So it does appear that a class racer could submit engine specs to IHRA for consideration.

However....it appears to me that the sticky point about the new 3.7 V-6 in Pure Stock will be the variable can timing.
Is there any way IHRA can check that ?

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Would not worry about that.

IT they came with and without would be two different HP ratings.

D

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Not wishing to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think Mike may have meant that an "interested competitor" could somehow convince Ford (or GM, Chrysler/Fiat, Toyota, etc.) to publish the specifications to allow inclusion into the Classification and Engine Blueprint Guides. The information should be available, as I am sure the OEM's have to furnish most of it to various governmental agencies in order to be allowed to market their products. Whether they WANT to release that information on vehicles which they have decided they have no desire to market for drag racing competition (which seems to be the almost overwhelming answer we have been receiving since the last full update of the Guides') will be the big problem.

Re: History Repeats itself
 

I see what you are saying Lew.
After re-reading what Mike wrote, I can see your point.

I still wonder if IHRA has a way to verify the variable cam timing deal for Pure Stock.

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Al,
There are ways to check all this but may seem complicated to those who are accustomed to a non- Ti-VCT engine. The cams would have to be checked with the cam phaser at the park position (no adv. or ret.) @.050.
Here is an independent evaluation of the stock Coyote cams.

Stock Mustang GT 5.0 Coyote Cam specs:

Intake Cam:
Advertised: 263
.050": 211
Lobe Lift: .235"
Centerline (Park / Max): 139 / 89

Exhaust Cam:
Advertised: 263
.050": 211
Lobe lift: .216
Centerline (Park / Max): 123 / 73

Valve events @ Park (no adv/ret) @.050":
IVO: 33.5 ATDC
IVC: 64.5 ABDC
EVO: 48.5 BBDC
EVC: 17.5 BTDC

Total overlap (Park) @.050: -51

Valve events @ Max @.050:
IVO: 16.5 BTDC
IVC: 14.5 ABDC
EVO: 1.5 ABDC
EVC: 32.5 ATDC

Total overlap (Max) @.050: 49
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...cam-specs.html

The lobe lift they describe is exactly what is in the2012 Ford Manual DVD,
(.235in, .216ex) with a stock rocker ratio of 2:1. = .470 / .432 .
Where Ford- NHRA got a total valve lift for a Stock 2012 coyote of .519 intake and exhaust is beyond me, despite being over factored at 380 vs the Cobra jet 302 at 350....
Almost all the engine data and specs for the 2011- 2012 V6 and coyote are in this DVD... Borrow it from your local Ford Tech..Just set the date of your computer to the date of the dvd....

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Thanks Steve !
That is very helpful.

Alan

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Yep, I mentioned a similar issue on my fb page, a "family man" income cannot lay out $80k or more for the new CJ, COPO, or DP Challengers. The big 3 continue to follow the 80-20 sales rule, forgetting about the rest of us.

Re: History Repeats itself
 

$80K ? Looking at some of the fancy rigs at the track i'm thinking the Bugatti Veyron should be in the guide so some racers can run their ordinary cars. :)

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Have not all the Cobrajets Copos and Dragpaks been sold?

Re: History Repeats itself
 

I'm thinking they have,,,, good point.
Danny Durham

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Sounds like Kershaw.

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Not that I recall.

I submitted the GT from 2008 to present and V6 from 2011 to present. They have been in the guide for months.
I'm not aware of anyone racing them.

There are high value combinations in the Cobra Jet line up as well. The 2010 Cobra Jet 4.6l combo for example is very affordable for how fast it can go and it is easy to build as the vast majority of the parts are available from any Ford dealer.

There is always a dilemma when submitting new cars. Make it a value with low initial cost, and competitive, but it will also likely be in classes with older cars. Or make something that is still a value but considerably more expensive and runs against other late models almost exclusively. The vast majority of our customer cars are the latter option but we have always tried to get more price conscious combinations legal for racers to consider.

When I hear what racers pay for clean sheet metal on older cars, what it cost them for the latest trickiest head for their big block, or the difficulty they have in finding 20-30-40 year old parts, I am reminded that the late model cars can be a huge value. Like anything in racing you can spend as much as you want.

I am proud of the job we've done presenting cost effective options, pushing for new faster classes for the late models, posting more contingency than ever for all model years, and putting effort into growing the sport.

Re: History Repeats itself
 

X2!! Thanks Jessie for your support in drag racing!

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Send to Mike Baker at IHRA . Mbaker@ihra.com
I will do what I can to get it into Pure Stock
There are more,than few people wanting to run these combos.

D

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Thanks Jesse for what you did helping to get the 3.7 Mustang in Pure Stock !
Much appreciated. :)

I was impressed with how quickly you responded to my e-mail request to send the 2011-2014 V-6 Mustang specs to Mike Baker for a Pure Stock classification review.

Now the 3.7 Mustang is legal for Pure Stock and it's natural class is F/PS.

Re: History Repeats itself
 

This is great...WTG.

The new Mustang will have lots of Competition.

D

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Maybe one of you could clarify something for me. With the exception of the nine combos listed in the IHRA horsepower list on the IHRA website, don't all Pure Stock entries use the NHRA Stock factors to determine their natural class? In other words; once the V6 Mustang combo was in the NHRA Guide it also became eligible for Pure Stock at the NHRA factor, unless IHRA adjusts it, in which case the combo and revised factor would be added to their list along with the nine already listed.

If this is not correct then only those nine combos would be eligible to run Pure Stock, which is not the case.

Thanks are certainly due to Jesse for providing the technical info so that the late model production Mustangs are able to race in Super Stock and Stock as well as Pure Stock.

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Jeff:
To get the combo allowed into Pure Stock, IHRA needs to know the factory cam duration and overlap ( maybe even more info than that) and they also need to know the factory valve spring pressure(s)

That's where Jesse really helped to speed up getting the 3.7 into PS.

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Alan;

Thanks for clearing that up for me; I had forgotten about the additional cam specs required.

Jeff

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Does IHRA have a listing somewhere which shows which combos are approved for Pure Stock, and what the camshaft specs are?

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Yes mostly from older archives.
Use to be available easily from manufacturers.

D

Re: History Repeats itself
 

Dan;

Could you post a link to the current list, or does IHRA not publish it for some reason?

Thanks

Jeff

Re: History Repeats itself
 

www.NHRA.com has most of the specifications.
IHRA uses 99% of what they posted.
Otherwise we have to ping Jim Wood and Mike Baker..

Think it about time IHRA starts investing in their own Classification and Specifications Library.

Create a formal way to add new car specifications.
Instead of the current process.

IHRA could increase Stock and Super Stock participation dramatically getting all the New US Cars Specifications.

They would double participation of they started allowing IMPORTS...
Trumping NHRA.. Who is lazy on this too..

D


D