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Larry Hill 12-06-2013 07:32 PM

Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Lets start with the premise that it is the sanctioning body responsibility to make and enforce rules that are fair and applied equally to everyone. If fair for one it is fair for all.

With that being said, it has been unfair to the rest of us trying to qualify at the biggest race of the year to allow the Factory Shoot Out to be exempt from the AHFS rules.

First off I like the Shootout races. The "Big Three" involvement back in drag racing is good for the sport. It is always a great race within a race. It gives them a chance to win on Sunday and sell on Monday.

So lets look at the elephants in the room. NHRA: it is their rules and venue and NHRA is always trying to generate an income stream from some one or some thing, nothing personal just business. Corporate America: trying to sway the sanctioning body to give them the advantage over the other players; an example supplying NHRA official this or that. The AHFS: the system used to bring an out of line combination in line and to keep the masses happy, some times not so much.

So what do we do? There should be a common sense solution to the problem of Factory Shoot Out Cars being exempt from AHFS at Indy.
Common sense in abundance is genius!

My thoughts are these: NHRA a race within a race no problem, its a great show. When the Factory Shoot Out cars are placed on the qualifying sheet, then the rest of us trying to be #128 or above, then it becomes a big problem. My solution is this: If the Factory Shoot Out cars want to run in the eliminator, the fastest time ran during qualifying or eliminations would be the time used to place them on the final qualifying sheet. The final qualifying sheet would be including in the AHFS "Q" data with all the rights, privileges, and enhancements the rest of us get to enjoy. If a Factory Shoot Out competitor chooses not to run in the eliminator then the AHFS will not apply. Once the decision is made to get on the qualifying sheet it can not be reversed. The reason I think the fastest run should count for the Factory Shoot Out cars, is to stop the 1000' "dump" during qualifying. Fans pay to see a good show. Give them value for the dollar spent.

What is your idea?

Jack McCarthy 12-06-2013 08:12 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
makes perfect sense... so NHRA wouldnt dream of anything like that :)

captain

Ed Wright 12-06-2013 09:14 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Makes zero sense AHFS does not apply there. The submitted hp for the new cars is just nuts. My wife could read the specs and know better.

442OLDS 12-06-2013 09:16 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 411509)
Lets start with the premise that it is the sanctioning body responsibility to make and enforce rules that are fair and applied equally to everyone. If fair for one it is fair for all.


What is your idea?

It will probably never happen,because if you can't qualify at Indy,you are supposed to "work" on your car.

However,the best idea to me is to have an ALL RUN field.

As noted from last year,there were some pretty good running cars that did NOT get to race,and I highly doubt that there is much more in performance to qualify in 2014 with an even tougher bump,most likely.

-------- Not Qualified ------------

129 209 A/SA Larry Smith, Davenport FL, '10 Challenger 10.238 11.00 -0.762
130 3910 CC/SA Todd Frantz, Louisville KY, '10 Challenger 9.840 10.60 -0.760
131 3602 A/S Jason McCormack, Columbiaville MI, '66 Be 10.192 10.95 -0.758
132 3154 F/S Gary Russell, E. Sparta OH, '67 Camaro 11.043 11.80 -0.757
133 3339 C/SA Travis Sturgell, Paris IL, '70 Chevelle 10.645 11.40 -0.755
134 1783 C/SA Allison Smyth, Uxbridge MA, '98 Firebird 10.646 11.40 -0.754
135 3664 B/SA Bryan Merkle, Johnstown OH, '00 Firebird 10.497 11.25 -0.753
136 3990 F/SA Tim Gillespie, Xenia OH, '68 GTO 11.099 11.85 -0.751
137 7474 A/SA Justin Lamb, Henderson NV, '99 Firebird 10.250 11.00 -0.750
138 393 B/SA BJ Johns, Louisville KY, '00 Firebird 10.508 11.25 -0.742
139 1778 D/SA Joe Santangelo, Marlborough CT, '95 Camaro10.812 11.55 -0.738
140 3933 I/SA Bo Fowler, Mooresville IN, '78 Volare 11.563 12.30 -0.737
141 3219 G/SA Jeff McKinney, Carroll OH, '90 Corvette 11.264 12.00 -0.736
142 3023 G/SA Chuck Belanger, Taylorsville KY, '69 Nova 11.265 12.00 -0.735
143 3218 D/SA Paul Boster, Pataskala OH, '03 Corvette 10.817 11.55 -0.733
144 7616 K/SA Ryan Mangus, Rialto CA, '66 Chevy II 11.920 12.65 -0.730
145 3261 E/SA Kevin Zaskowski, Grand Rapids MI, '68 Cam 10.976 11.70 -0.724
146 4649 M/SA Sammy LaPorte, New Iberia LA, '87 Firebird12.127 12.85 -0.723
147 5335 I/SA Dic Geary, Broomfield CO, '72 Camaro 11.578 12.30 -0.722
148 1375 BB/SA Mike Letellier, Biddeford ME, '12 Camaro 9.580 10.30 -0.720
149 1233 F/SA Carl Massafra, Shelton CT, '69 Camaro 11.131 11.85 -0.719
150 4222 AAA/SA Fred Henson, Madisonville TX, '13 Mustang 8.981 9.70 -0.719
151 1192 FS/AC Bob Hochrun, Colenia NJ, '13 Camaro 9.784 10.50 -0.716
152 46 A/SA David Latino, Donaldsonville LA, '02 Fire 10.290 11.00 -0.710
153 4992 FS/AC Brian Massingill, Houston TX, '12 Camaro 9.793 10.50 -0.707
154 1781 K/SA Dan Fletcher, Churchville NY, '69 Chevell 11.946 12.65 -0.704
155 2217 D/S Brian Rogers, Franklin TN, '69 Camaro 10.803 11.50 -0.697
156 3569 M/SA Patrick Downing, Britton MI, '83 Malibu W 12.155 12.85 -0.695
157 2920 B/SA Edmond Richardson, Greenbrier TN, '99 Cam 10.557 11.25 -0.693
158 2032 B/SA Jack Zimmerman, Clemmons NC, '71 Challeng 10.562 11.25 -0.688
159 19 F/SA Lenny Williams, Poughkeepsie NY, '71 Gran 11.172 11.85 -0.678
160 3199 E/SA Bob Schmalz, Poland OH, '69 Camaro 11.042 11.70 -0.658
161 3338 H/SA Allen Hollingsworth, Marshall IL, '72 GTO 11.499 12.15 -0.651
162 1779 A/SA Bob Letellier, Biddeford ME, '98 Firebird 10.349 11.00 -0.651
163 4145 A/SA Floyd Russo, Gonzales LA, '01 Trans Am 10.352 11.00 -0.648
164 3343 N/SA Don Turk, Lebanon IN, '74 Grand Am 12.357 13.00 -0.643
165 2046 H/SA Perry Simpkins, Murfreesboro TN, '69 Cama 11.864 12.15 -0.286
166 5502 K/SA Paul Anderson, Lewiston MN, '80 Malibu 12.420 12.65 -0.230
167 2132 H/SA Dennis Patterson, Milton TN, '69 Nova 12.002 12.15 -0.148
168 3297 V/SA Jim Tool, Roadhouse IL, '80 Mustang 15.454 15.50 -0.046
169 248H F/S Casey Miles, Boca Raton FL, '69 Camaro 11.801 11.80 0.001

james schaechter 12-07-2013 11:01 AM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Parity is key for sure. It is a great show when you have the new cars actually show their muscle. When everyone is protecting their combo, no one can tell who is the quickest. There are always going to be racers that have a quicker car than all the others for various reasons. Indy should be the place to prove it!

I would say that Larry has a great idea! Why give the soft combo players a hallpass on AHFS? If they are going to do that, just take them out of the stock eliminator. i would say also that NHRA could give them a choice. If they enter the shootout, no AHFS, but they cannot also be in Stock or SS. If they don't enter the shootout, they can enter the stock or SS race. If they enter Stock or SS, they are then subject to AHFS.

Indy was a tough qualifying field for sure. We have two engine combos that were good, not great. We even changed engine, and rear gear and weight class the sunday before the race because we knew the other engine would not be as good in hot conditions.

We are not a big buck team, but we really try hard when it comes to tuning and testing. We were glad to make it in (just barely). I felt bad until I saw all the really good cars that didn't make it in. Indy is tough. The weather can be very different, the car doesn't always cooperate, etc.
There is always something to improve on your car. We have a list a mile long every year. We only pick the stuff we have time for and can afford. The improvements we plan won't keep us on pace with some of the new cars, but we know if it helps our car. There is satisfaction in that for us. It is not very exciting to me to run a car that is so soft, even an ugly run is "quick".
We don't have the money to buy a copo, but we will have a new engine this year that will help.

I don't want Indy to be dumbed down so performance is left out. I think it is NHRA to provide parity with performance. If that is done, then the best of every division will come to Indy and see how they measure up. Indy is really the only Performance based National Event left. I would rather work hard to keep up, than to get in by just showing up.

GUMP 12-07-2013 01:22 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Unless the whole structure of the classes in Factory Stock is changed the AHFS should not apply. The real issue is the indexes. The NHRA has enough data from this year to fix that without screwing up the shootout.

james schaechter 12-07-2013 02:35 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Screwing it up how?

Mickey Whaley 12-07-2013 02:51 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
are the scales open?

GUMP 12-07-2013 02:55 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by james schaechter (Post 411595)
Screwing it up how?

The showdown is meant to be a flat out factory class not a 1000' race.

james schaechter 12-07-2013 03:08 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
I agree. I didn't see anything pushing it that way in the thread.
I hope NHRA re-evaluates how their process impacts others.

I think Larry addressed it pretty well.

The only thing that even scratched the surface of hp reality are a few that actually push these cars to run hard for the entire 1320.

Rusty Gillis 12-07-2013 03:57 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
I thought they were running off a min. weight not shipping weight so I don't see how they can give them hp unless I'm mixed up. That said they need to do something to make it fair for the rest trying to qualify. I think it is awesome that the factories are involved and makes Stock and Super Stock more exciting but I want to see all out racing.

Mickey Whaley 12-07-2013 04:53 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
1.15 under is 1.15 under horsepower on Monday? But not for them that's billchit! or is it 1.20?

Bruce Noland 12-07-2013 05:01 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
A few points to add to Larry's post.

1.) Graham Light wrote a letter in 2009 that stated the AHFS would be applied to all applicable runs by the new Mustangs and Challengers. The new Camaros were not out at the time but it seems plausible that he would have included them if they were on the track. I have the original letter on nhra stationary.

2.) Linda Louie, nhra attorney wrote to another attorney and made these comments:
a.) "nhra sees no reason why the Cobra Jet cannot race in Stock, under the same rules
as all other Stock vehicles"
b.) "nhra closely monitors the performance of new vehicles, and adds weight to the
vehicle or adjusts the horsepower factor of the vehicle if such measures are
appropriate"
I have a copy of this letter from the recipient.

3.) While it is nice to finally see nhra out of the closet, it does not change the fact that their continued indulgences to the oem's amounts to Rigging of Sporting Events. They are intentionally creating an unfair advantage for certain competitors while ignoring their responsibilities as a sanctioning body. Why do they do it? Why does nhra intentionally cheat certain competitors while granting a free pass to entitlement racers?

Paul Iaconis 12-07-2013 07:06 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
I don't understand the issue with the factory showdown cars do you think if they didn't have it the same cars wouldn't be in the show at Indy so put the afhs in effect and make it a pedal fest and see how long it lasts

Jeff Teuton 12-07-2013 07:22 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
It has already been proposed to lower the indexes .25 which would move 8 of the 12 who qualified in the top 14 at Indy out. It would also take several out of the eliminators. Larry knew this, but didn't mention it. I wouldn't mention it either if I was trying to sell his point of view. And the discussions for Factory Stock have not even begun yet untill the HP Adjsutments for the end of the year are done. I think the long term plan is to have one or two stand alone classes, and in the interim adjustments will have to be made.

Andys dad 12-07-2013 08:31 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton (Post 411639)
It has already been proposed to lower the indexes .25 which would move 8 of the 12 who qualified in the top 14 at Indy out. It would also take several out of the eliminators. Larry knew this, but didn't mention it. I wouldn't mention it either if I was trying to sell his point of view. And the discussions for Factory Stock have not even begun yet untill the HP Adjsutments for the end of the year are done. I think the long term plan is to have one or two stand alone classes, and in the interim adjustments will have to be made.

Just get the only NA car out of the super charged class and for everyone's sanity - put the slower cars in a class with the letter closer to Z

Neither will happen but there are not any out west anyway - so who cares


Ron

Stephen Bell 12-08-2013 12:41 AM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
In my humble opinion, the excitement and recognition of the factory showdown races far out way any negative issues. It's only a couple races a year.... S.Bell

Billy Nees 12-08-2013 09:07 AM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Bell (Post 411669)
In my humble opinion, the excitement and recognition of the factory showdown races far out way any negative issues. It's only a couple races a year.... S.Bell

Sure, why not? It's just kinda like a bunch of semi-pro ballplayers playing a couple of games a year with one arm tied behind our backs vs. the juiced-up pros.
Bruce, don't people go to jail for "rigging" the outcomes of "sporting events"?

GUMP 12-08-2013 09:25 AM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
I think it would be cool if Factory Stock was run as a qualified 16 car field as part of the main event instead of class eliminations. Call it Factory Experimental too.

Billy Nees 12-08-2013 10:05 AM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 411677)
I think it would be cool if Factory Stock was run as a qualified 16 car field as part of the main event instead of class eliminations. Call it Factory Experimental too.

Now that I would pay to see! If need be, make it 32 cars. It would be a lot easier to understand for the casual fan then what modern-day ProStock has become.

james schaechter 12-08-2013 10:09 AM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 411677)
I think it would be cool if Factory Stock was run as a qualified 16 car field as part of the main event instead of class eliminations. Call it Factory Experimental too.

Finally! Back to where it should have started LOL.
Cool cars for sure. NHRA just needs to actually evaluate what they did with the shootout. That would mean they should do a 360 degree evaluation. Ask sponsors, participants, affected racers, NHRA officials (not just Glendora yes men) and fans.

Someone said it is just a couple of races. True enough. Except Indy is not just another race.

Since it is a shootout only at a couple races, why not break them out separately?

I doubt if NHRA has any decision makers looking at Classracer to gather input, so the discussion is just talking among racers here.

It is good to hear ideas from all different perspectives. Maybe NHRA should send their Marketing department to some Division and National meets. Force them to camp in the pits and see what they learn.
I know they made an effort to mingle with us little people at Indy, but they need to back it up with some real action items to be credible. This would be a great opportu ity to show that they actually meant what they said about the sportsman experience.

Eric Merryfield 12-08-2013 10:14 AM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 411677)
I think it would be cool if Factory Stock was run as a qualified 16 car field as part of the main event instead of class eliminations. Call it Factory Experimental too.

Not a bad idea, they could also create a few indexes in Comp just for the new factory cars, make it attainable without spending 50K on engine work and increase the exposure for the auto makers(Comp is front of the crowds right?), give the guys that just want to go as fast as possible a outlet, and get those nice Comp parking spots at the national events(paved)! Wouldn't be that hard to make the indexes doable, you could in theory do it now, but not with the full motor menu available......it was part of the drag pak literature back in the early days, so its not a new thought. These cars deserve more swimming pools to play in. Who wouldn't entertain Comp if you have a factory car?

Out to walk the beagles, balmy 28 degrees here in MA.

Eric

Larry Hill 12-08-2013 11:01 AM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
That is some good stuff Eric. FX in Comp. Great exposure for the big three. Good parking for the cars. More of full field for comp. Index adjustments as they race. After each round they get towed back to the pits on the return road in front of the fans. They get to sleep later. Most racer will be racing against a similar investment. The AHFS does not apply.

It is 27degrees in this part of KY.

Mike Carr 12-08-2013 11:18 AM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
I think it's pretty simple:

If you are running with/as part of Stock Eliminator, AHFS applies. -1.219 under = Horsepower penalty. Period.

If you are in a shootout of your own, with no AHFS or other stuff, you are seperate from Stock and not part of the 128 car Indy field.

chris ok 12-08-2013 11:24 AM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 411681)
Now that I would pay to see! If need be, make it 32 cars. It would be a lot easier to understand for the casual fan then what modern-day ProStock has become.

A 32 car field on sunday will help fill the stands. I know E Town needed the help on sunday this year, I was there.
Will help others want to understand what the other classes are about, stock and super stock that is.
real looking cars racing.

It really shouldn't be an issue at this time, just when will it start......

Chris

Pistol Pete 12-08-2013 11:24 AM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
I think At Indy they should run the Factory Cars the same as the Hemi Shoot-out.

If 30 cars show up Run them all, If 40 cars show up Run them all.

They could have there own Eliminator.

By not giving them the AHFS is just wrong, when 14 of 16 of those were the New Cars.

Or like someone said, lower there index's !!!

Make the playing field a little more even.

Just my .03 cents worth.

John Duzac 12-08-2013 11:31 AM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
I like the factory cars and would probably have one if I could afford one. It would be a stick! I do think they should be in their own class. The new cars beat up on almost every A/SA and B/SA car that was running. Many are gone now. I suspect that will change when the new cars finally get where they belong.

By the way, it is 40 cold degrees here in Covington, La. Freezing my behind off! But we're in the garage working on the car trying to find more H.P. That much never changes. And it never will!

Good luck to all.

Rat Raceway 12-08-2013 12:11 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
All great ideas!

IMO, AFHS needs to be in forced if your running stock.

It's only 7 degrees in Denver. COLD! :(

goinbroke2 12-08-2013 03:06 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Carr (Post 411693)
I think it's pretty simple:

If you are running with/as part of Stock Eliminator, AHFS applies. -1.219 under = Horsepower penalty. Period.

If you are in a shootout of your own, with no AHFS or other stuff, you are seperate from Stock and not part of the 128 car Indy field.

X1000!!! Can't get any more simple than that!
Your all in or your all out, period!

Dyno 12-08-2013 04:16 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
I brought the hemi home on Monday when it was a warm 28*, -14* on Friday night, snow and a warmer 8* this Sunday. Dyno (Mpls., Mn)

Clay Arnett 12-10-2013 07:03 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
I understand why NHRA does not have AHFS apply to the class because they want flat out heads up racing. Which is reasonable who doesn't want to see that?

So how about they just say no AHFS for any cars at Indy? That way we can see everyone let them loose.

I do think they need their own class and should be showcased more.

Frank Bialas 12-10-2013 09:18 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen bell (Post 411669)
in my humble opinion, the excitement and recognition of the factory showdown races far out way any negative issues. It's only a couple races a year.... S.bell

f@#$kn clueless!!!

Andrew Hill 12-10-2013 09:41 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Why not just give the factory shootout classes a fair index? Make it where Barton will go 1.10 under instead of 1.40 or whatever

Jeff Teuton 12-10-2013 09:44 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Andrew, see # 15. We actually agree. Scary!

69camz28 12-10-2013 09:52 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Love the factory cars and feel they have generated a lot of interest in the sport....

GUMP 12-10-2013 09:56 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Hill (Post 412061)
Why not just give the factory shootout classes a fair index? Make it where Barton will go 1.10 under instead of 1.40 or whatever

Agree!

Andrew Hill 12-10-2013 10:10 PM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Teuton (Post 412063)
Andrew, see # 15. We actually agree. Scary!

How about that? I guess there's a first time for everything! I may be driving a new Challenger before long, too. It may be a V-6 street car, but I'm inching over to the dark side!

Edit: I looked at the Indy qualifying sheet, and a 10.20 index in FS/AC would have put 6 of the 11 cars in that class out of the eliminator. 4 of them would have been less than 0.60 under, and Barton would have dropped to 1.12 under.

HandOverFist 12-11-2013 02:31 AM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 69camz28 (Post 412069)
Love the factory cars and feel they have generated a lot of interest in the sport....

I'm afraid the interest factor is pretty much flat nowadays...been on a downhill slide for years. Can't see $150K factory cars doing much for the majority of us. Just us diehards still plugging away and our numbers are dwindling as time passes...so sad.

Ed Wright 12-11-2013 09:15 AM

Re: Factory Showdown Cars and Indy 2014
 
How about just giving them legit hp ratings?


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