Old vs New during rounds
 

How many old cars have been out run in a heads up run for a money winning round by a new car, in lets say the last 5 years?? Stock or super stock.

Re: Old vs New during rounds
 

I have lost to every new car I have raced heads -up. Maybe I need to work more on my stuff! The race that stings the most is the fourth round loss to Cour ,Heads up to his blown Mustang. We drove 2300 miles one way to get my ***** handed to me on a plate. Quick recap of the race I'm better at the tree and he is 7mph faster at the 1/8 mile and way ahead down track. I was only down 100+ hp. I heard that the car was on 65% throttle.

Re: Old vs New during rounds
 

xxx

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And, many try to play the ladder to avoid them.

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Mr. Larry I understand your pain. Kevin lost to a local friend in the fourth round in a heads up run. The throttle was being played with the whole run. Now these were both new cars. So new cars get their @&$ handed to them as well. I'm just seeing in numbers how many races have the new cars dominated.

The last few world champions drove which kind of cars?

How man of the older cars play that same ladder game because of other old cars? Everyone plays that game to get an "advantage" right?

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So, if none of that matters anyway, you guys would be cool with getting 75 to 100 hp to make things more equal?

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Larry, I seem to remember you beating Lambeck's Camaro in a heads-up during that swing so that must have been some consolation. Jacob Pitt beat a good Drag Pak car with his ex-Wann Cuda during the Reynolds race. Also think that win was crucial in winning the D4 Stock championship...that's double-sweet right there.

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We are not the ones b@&ching all the time. All I'm saying is, get into the classes so that you never have or very seldom have a heads up race with a new car then none of this matters to you. Old cars win more races than what you call an underrated overpowered cars! Find the stats on the winnings!

Re: Old vs New during rounds
 

Whichever there are the most of, will usually have the most race wins. Simple math.
All heads up would be a different deal.
You certainly aren't like conversing with your Dad.

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There is no correlation between HP factors and driving ability, nor is there any correlation between the veracity of any HP factor and any winning percentage (heads-up or otherwise).

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Mr Ed, I'm laughing while all of that was typed. I'm having fun no harm intended. I think it's funny how we all can deffend our own thoughs.

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Your mistaken about the heads ups. Been there.

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Would you mind posting the time slip?

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When old cars out number the new car by 10 to1 i guess that means nothing, the people that have some of these new cars couldn't make there old cars run with the rest of the old cars, so they purchase a new under rated car and now there a genius, car builder, engine pro, and there upset when they get 5hp added when they should be getting 25hp/50hp or more.

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Might be worth mentioning, the problem isnt with the person owning or driving the cars, the factoring is the issue. The long time it takes to adjust becomes very painful to previously Over factored or often factored combination owners. Not all racers can park one $50K car and instantly move into a $100,000 new car and become a winner in class.
An outsider has a better chance of entering and being big time since they do not have to sell a used up combination to have some money to buy the next car.

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Damn RULER you hit it right on the head!! Ding ding winner winner chicken dinner!!

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Why would I still have a time slip? Do you keep those? I have no reason to.

Ruler, you are dead right about some of them. Not all.

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I have it figured out guys, once the new car guys can't get old cars to run fast, out numbered 10-1, so we buy a car and become instant genius's maybe be we should line up and ask NHRA for 100hp because we all know if the older cars had any advantage then they would respectfully do the same for all of us! Maybe we should all ask the big 3 to please stop making new cars for our sport. I mean my 26 month old should only be able to drive a car pre1970's. I can't wait till 2020 to see what toys we have to play with! Espically to see what the old guys consider "old" cars then!! This is getting even better!!

Re: Old vs New during rounds
 

Here's just one I remembered off the top of my head, 4th round at a national

http://www.classracer.com/classforum...t=24721&page=2

Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT-----ET-- Speed-----Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT-----ET-- Speed
1013 David Ficacci 350 Doug Duell
E4 0.053 10.091 129.08 ****WINNER**** 0.105 9.878 125.95
A/SA Dial: 11.00 (+/-): -0.909 A/SA Dial: 11.00 (+/-): -1.122
Prior rounds:
E3 (D Rampy ) 0.059 10.980 0.900 (R Skipper Jr) 0.012 9.993 0.043
E2 (R Shaw ) 0.059 9.972 -1.028 (L Williams ) 0.072 9.957 0.047
E1 (O Birkett ) 0.038 10.200 0.030 (C Marshall ) 0.025 10.036 0.046
Qualified: #25 10.069 -0.931 #9 9.995 -1.005
Doug Duell's MOV: 0.1615 seconds (approximately 31 feet).

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9.87 @ 125.96?? Really hung it out, didn't he? LOL

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Maybe his front air damn caught the beems early.....

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You do know that combination can't even run A/SA any more? That run is from 2010!

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The man asked about a new car beating an old car, heads up, in the past 5 years.

Doug beat Dave that year, and John Shaul. Not bad for the first year for the car, taking out two very fast and well developed cars, owned and campaigned by the same guys for years.

And a 9.87 @ 125MPH means the car was probably capable of a mid 9.60 pass, at least.

Every year, another batch of real soft factored combinations gets added. Many of them are nothing but paper, no car with that engine is ever actually produced, they just pick parts out of a catalog, assign a bogus soft factor, and NHRA puts it in the guide.

And yet, there was a time when 50 of that car, with that engine, had to be produced and sold. Now, you don't even have to bolt an engine together, you can just write the blueprint specs on paper and send them in.

Oh, I like Doug, a lot, super nice guy, we've pitted next to each other 3-4 times. Nice car, too.

Re: Old vs New during rounds
 

I was pointing out that the AHFS had moved it along. The same will happen to each of these combinations as long as so few are being run.

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i have one for you Joseph.last year at the houston nats old vs new Sammy vs Pb Candies sammy RT -005 ET10.151@130.10 Pb RT +.170 ET 10.048 @108.15 and past me early and half throttled it just enough to stay in front i guess he did not see the red light.he quilified at a 9.87 on the brakes. Joey NHRA had it fixed when they had a class for the Fuelinfected cars that was the answer.

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No. Winning is a symptom, not causality. You may have been beat because a car was underfactored. The car was not underfactored because it beat you. I will get beat heads-up every time with my DragPak. That does not mean that it is not ridiculously underfactored. It means that I didn't spend money on mine.

HP Factors should not be determined based on winning percentages. HP Factors should be based on a working knowledge of engines, combinations, and real-world performance.

The HP factors on the 'factory race cars' are in no way shape or form defensible. Even production street cars are advertised at significantly higher HP. The fact that NHRA has done the same thing in the past does not make it right. Quite the opposite, such experience should have led to more proper decisions.

The idea that anyone with $100,000 invested in their car over a lifetime can or should scrap their car to purchase a new $100,000 car, or to scrap it and build only M/SA and slower cars is absolutely ridiculous. If someone has the wherewithal to do so and that's what they want to do: that's perfectly fine. No problem, have at it. If you want to take advantage of extremely favorable HP factors, no problem, have at it. I did. It's the only way I could afford getting into Super Stock, and I did it specifically *because* it was ridiculously underfactored.

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^^^^^ Yep, good post.

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Sammy, tell the whole story. You could not run your car on kill cause you had broken your whellie bars the round before and Yes I would still have beaten you but it would have been a better race. I watched your red light then left and put a fender on you. Do not blame us blame OEM & NHRA. We all play by NHRA rules.

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I don't know of any of the VIN-less class cars running in Q/SA.
For now I feel safe. :D

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Guys yall are taking this all wrong.

All I was trying to get accross is that the old cars have won more races than the newer cars. If I'm not mistaken we all go to the races to "win" and have a good time. It seems that you dont need a "new" or the "fastest" in the class car to win.

Michael you are 100% correct that "The idea that anyone with $100,000 invested in their car over a lifetime can or should scrap their car to purchase a new $100,000 car, or to scrap it and build only M/SA and slower cars is absolutely ridiculous." I never brought up a dollar amount because money should not be the reason a car or driver wins, I simply stated that with the time and r&r that yall have put into yall's cars most likley equals the amount that was put in our cars at the time of purchase. You even stated that " I did. It's the only way I could afford getting into Super Stock, and I did it specifically *because* it was ridiculously underfactored." So we can pick an choose the cars we want to drive on this same factor? Everyone in racing wants as much advactage as they can get. We all know there will be a time when the combonation we are running will be no more good. This is why they have a whole bunch of other classes to race to make sure you stay away from the cars you dont want to run untill you get the combo you are looking for. That hasnt changed since NHRA was developed.

Yall have yall's opinion, we have ours. Back to the Title of the post...
I have 2 people that has posted they were out ran by a new car in the last 5 years. Im not saying this doesnt happen..... all im saying is does it happen enough for yall to keep bringing this up over and over again?

Underfactored cars does not equal better cars. Aren't we all just looking for the BEST race car? I may have this all wrong, I've been told this before. Hope all have a great Friday! The parades start tonight here in Houma,La!!

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Well my "S/N" number which can be found by MOPAR is 2011-008. Yea i know its not the 13 or 17 number like yalls but hey some of yalls cars didnt come with power windows either. Guys the times are changing its going to be ok. lol :D

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Cobra Jets > COPOs > Drag Paks > 90's FI > Carbureted Dinosaurs.

If I were betting on class eliminations at Indy, I could win a TON of money using this formula. There are a few exceptions, like David Barton, and occasionally a Teuton, but for the vast majority this holds true. It makes Class Eliminations very predictable and BORING.

1st round Class Eliminations last year, '09-up cars won every race against an older car, except 3 redlights and a 1 holeshot.

90's model FI cars won 12/16 against carbureted cars, not counting broken cars or redlights.

I liked the idea of the Factory Supercar Class at Indy, but it was all too predictable as well (see the formula above). BORING!

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The original post should have read, "Name the number of times since 2009 that a old car beat a new car in Class/Eliminator, unless it was a throw away run by the New car"

I lost the Class final in E/SA @ Indy in 2013 to a new car. I went .988 under the index and the winner went 1.15 under backing in to me.

I also had the same car and driver 1st round of Stock Eliminator at the same race. ......Can you say " Have a nice day".

How many of the New car owners and drivers had old cars that were capable(fast and legal) of winning Class at Indy?

I own and race a 67 Fairlane and a 2010 Mustang 352 CJ , both can run D/SA.......guess which one if faster??

RJ


.

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I like the new cars...a lot.
My dream car is the 2013 CJ.


I remember back in '83 or '84 at the Winternationals seeing all those brand new Olds Cutlass 307 H.O. cars run in Stock.

As a young 22 year old, those brand new cars running 12's in Stock Eliminator was impressive to me.

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Mr. RJ sir, thanks for your input and I understand where your coming from. I wasnt including Class wins because they are a different animal and usually they dont mean anything these days. I love class racing which is why I do have a new car. But when it comes time for eliminations the chance for a heads up is that common. Sir, how many different classes do both your cars fit in?

I wish NHRA would come up with some type of heads up racing for a STK or SS car like prostock. I even believe we asked for some sort of heads up racing but were denied by NHRA. So we play were we can play.

I know some of us say that "advance" isnt the correct word but if techonolgy doesnt ADVANCE then how does the world grow? I guess we should all be using computers, phones, cars, and whatever else you can think of that has come from the 70's. I mean if in 44 years things havent advanced then how is the world like it is?? Hp factors as well as enging builders have had to change due to the changing times. Come on guys you cant really believe that a car built in the 70's, 80"s, or even the 90's should compete with cars built of today.

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Pb i don't blame you one bit for building a new car.if i was building another car it would not be and old car i would build a late model. but NHRA should put it back the way they had it with a class for FI cars only. our old carb cars don't have a prayer aganst the new cars.and that is why you don't see me at all the races anymore i am not spending my hard earned money when i don't have a chance in a head's up race.i wish NHRA would wise up and put the FI classes back. and for the record i love watching the new cars our sport needs them but not in a heads up against and old car with a HP rating disadvantage.

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Mr. Sammy if you are will to put the bowtie's I can see about getting you a ride in a MOPAR. Lol I'm not sure if the Chevy Gods will accept you after that but hey it's worth a shot! Lol

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In my opinion, that *should* be Pro Stock today. To see the factory race cars unleashed would be an incredible and engaging show. I'd like to feature something like this at an event, but have been waiting for NHRA to square things up. The Factory Stock concept is there, but seems to be all over the map right now. We'll try to do some research and attempt to have a plan in place for next year by the end of summer so people have time to plan for 2015.

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Joey it would be an honor to drive one of your chrysler cars.and i would park my bowtie today. just saying!!!!!

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It would take someone with far more time and patience than I have to go back five years and look. But, I would bet every last dollar to my name, that new (2008-newer) cars have won 95% (yes, ninety-five percent, or more) of the heads-up runs in eliminations at National and Divisional events since 2009. And even the few runs they lost (be it Class or Eliminator) were probably due to redlight/breakage/spin/.200+ light. Seldom do they ever actually get outrun.