Where you qualify is very important
 

There were 20 qualifiers in SS at Denver. The ladder NHRA uses in this situation is here: http://nhraracer.com/ladders/Ladders...Submit1=Submit.

We see that:

Qualifiers 1,6,11,16 have the following sequence to win the eliminator:

• Win,Win,Bye,Win,Win

Qualifiers 2,4,7,9,12,14,17,19 have the following sequence to win the eliminator:

• Win,Win,Win,Bye,Win

Qualifiers 3,5,8,10,13,15,18,20 have the following sequence to win the eliminator:

• Win,Win,Win,Win,Win

Do you recognize which are the "qualifying positions of death"? Which qualifying group would you want to be in to have the best chance of winning the eliminator? Is it fair that under this system just as many bottom half qualifiers have a chance at a bye as top half qualifiers?

In a 20 car field, 12 drivers can take the eliminator with four wins, and eight would need five. There is a way to modify the current ladder that would ensure that the eight bottom qualifiers are the ones that need to win five times.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

What is that way? How can you do that? Please be specific. I know of no way to do that without seeding drivers instead of relying on actual qualifying numbers. And if seeding drivers is a solution to what some perceive as a problem, why run qualifying at all?

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

My theory is if it's your day it's your day
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

You could say that about ANY Stock or Super Stock race for the most part....there is always an easier path...........and a reason so many of the consistent Winners work the ladder.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

So because someone qualifies at the top of the pack they should get a free round? Not all combinations set the world on fire. The last time I checked, until the pairings go from an odd number of cars to an even number there has to be a bye run. I guess I do not get this thought process, unless a person is always at the top of the pack and thinks its unfair to have to make more elimination runs compared to a lower qualified car. Play the ladder if you can. It must not work too bad for the touring guys, I'm sure if they wanted to be a top 5 or 10 qualifier they would do so, it just does not pay as well.

Sean

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Mr. Cunningham sells a really nice ladder book, which can help you pretty quickly figure out where the 'sweet spots' are on any Sportsman ladder. It's a handy little tool IMO.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

I don't understand how people look at our sport......

In a 26 car field if #14 qualified car beats #1 qualified car in the first round then that bye in the 2nd Round goes to the #14 qualifier.....

All you have do is win your round with #1 and you get their bye run......

Seem fair to me...

Just like Al Davis said "Just win baby"

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

The path of least resistence will net the most gain for the least amount of work. Just like in any other game, you are given a set of rules to play by. Using them to your best advantage is the most profitable way to play. I find it amazing to hear racers complaining about others lifting at 1000ft. Attaching numbers to where you qualify is only a way to form a ladder. There will always be a number 1 and a number last. Where you are in between will determine if you are home for lunch on Sunday or very early for breakfast on Monday.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

I'd love to qualify in the bottom 8 in the scenario presented. No fast cars to race heads up in the first 3 rounds! There might really be a lot of game playing then. As we have learned through the years, be careful what you wish for.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

65 car field bye in the first bye into the final and there are others.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

I agree.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Don't forget about the certain sweet spots where you get two byes! PM me or email me about the ladder software I advertised last year. Makes life way easier..

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Mr. Schwartz.... I am 100% behind you!.

ALL BYES IN THE FIRST RD!
Get down to even number for rd 2 (16, 32, or 64 cars)

In your example from post number 1....
Byes would go to 1 through 12 in rd 1
(13 vs 17, 14 vs 18, 15 vs 19, 16 vs 20)

Now... you must qualify in top 12 to get a bye
and... 16 cars (even field) are back for round 2

Me and Mike are probably the only ones that this makes sense to!

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

63-car field with this kind of ladder: 31 bye runs first round.

Existing 63-car ladder: total number of bye runs: 1


When trying to correct a perceived issue, beware of the unintended consequences.

$.02,

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Think outside of the box Michael.... one race to make it into the 64 car field. The other 63 cars don't have to run.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Lets take a simple thing, like a qualifying ladder and complicate the sh&t out of it
...LOL!

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

I don't get it. How do you make a 64 car field from 63 cars?

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Sorry Bob.... I thought Michael said 65 (not 63).
Either way, if there were 63, he was correct, one bye run, and then there would be an even number left (32).

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

I've bracket raced and class raced with the AHRA and raced with the NSS and in most of those they drew a car number for the bye runs thereby making it a random choice rather than rewarding the top fast cars who could go the most under.

Just sayin'

JimR

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Jim, so what did AHRA do for the remaining rounds?
I really don't see AHRA as a good example to use for a business model.
My recollection in NSS was that a ladder was generated by qualifying by closest to one's own particular index.
Even the .90 classes "qualify' closest to, after a random first round.
You need some kind of system...hence odd number bye runs.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Another example, if you have a 41-car field (one of the "magic ladders" as is being discussed here), there's a total of 4 bye runs throughout eliminations.

Utilizing Tom's ladder, it's actually more complicated than what I'd originally thought. In order to get 41 cars to 32 in round 2, you would have to pair 18 cars (sending 9 into rnd 2) and give 23 cars bye runs. (18+23=41 rnd 1 cars. 9+23=32 rnd 2 cars).

I don't see how awarding 23 bye runs is an improvement over 4. Additionally, this procedure would cost an additional $650 in round money (Based on NHRA Div. 1 payouts), as there would be 16 cars left in Rnd 3 as opposed to 11, and more cars in each successive round. Running all the singles would take more time as well, unless you ran them side-by-side. Multiply the time and money by the number of classes that would use this system.

I do enjoy the mental gymnastics of working through ideas, though.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Another way would be to just have 8, 16, 32, 64 and 128 car fields based on car count rounding down from the actual car count....

Bring some performance back to our classes and there would only broke opponent bye runs most likely after first round

27 cars in the class make it a 16 car field, no bye runs, 11 cars dnq and 11 cars available for alternates.

33 cars in the class make it a 32 car field, no bye runs, 1 car dnq and available as alternate.

73 cars in the class make it a 64 car field, no bye runs, 9 cars dnq and 9 cars available for alternates.

This one would suck- got 127 cars round down to the 64 car field, no bye runs, 63 cars dnq and 63 cars available as alternates.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

I'm sure THAT would work wonders for car-counts!

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Why not just leave it alone?

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

I don't think that he was either, he was just making a point.
The point I am trying to make is that the average 5 tenths under Racer isn't going to show up to try and qualify for a 7 tenths under field.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

I think its time we remove our selfs from the 60's and 70's.

iam all for 64 car fields at all pts races and nationals events. I think INDY should stay a 128 car field. The car counts are bad now so whats the difference. All you cry baby old time racers already have 20 reasons why you don't race. So whats one more?

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Hard to bring "performance" to a bracket race.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Ed if you lower the number of available qualify spots won't that bring the performance level back up.
This sport is not for everyone and has always been about who will spend the most money to go fast.
And yes this sport is not fair.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

CB, There were qualified only fields in the 70's too..Sanair for one.

Here's one from the 80's> All Class winners plus fill in with low qualifiers, 64 car fields, except for Indy (128)
Want to bring performance back? There ya go..

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Iam all for class winner bump inn's. and getting rid of the class combo BS.
If you single for class and run under the index your in.
And you get your class win wally

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

That's just one of the reasons I always liked you, CharlieBob!

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Michael.... I'm actually half-agreeing with Brad Z.
Let's end up with 16, 32, or 64 car fields.

(but I would give everyone a chance to get in, instead of sending the low qualifiers home)

Let's look at the 41 car field you mentioned. (instead of sending 9 cars home, we have the bottom 18 run to get in the 32 car field)

You do have the bottom 18 cars running a "Get-in or Play-in round" (just like the NCAA uses for the march madness). Those 9 winners are not credited with a rd win, but they now qualified for the final 32 along with the other faster 23 cars that did not have to run. (this will also force 23 cars to chase after the top qualifying spots to avoid the "get-in round).
No one said you had to pay rd money for those that are still trying to qualify for the final 32 cars.
Issue #2 - 23 singles - no need to run them (just like class eliminations, some guys run more rounds than others- no extra advantage)

Myself, I wouldn't mind this method, and it's not very complicated.

If you think this is complicated, go stand by a qualification sheet at the races, and 50% of the racers couldn't figure out who they had to run if there was an odd number of cars if they tried. 95% couldn't tell if they were on the short side of the ladder unless they had the ladder book or Bobby Fazio's program (plug!).

ps... and honestly... I won't mind if they leave it alone... because I understand it.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

How about best losing package in the previous round gets back in the spot of the bye run? Only laddered bye run would be first round for the #1 qualifier who would deserve the bye if there were a odd number if cars. After that best losing package racers would be put in the spot where bye a bye would normally be. Wouldn't hurt car counts, not complicated, only would cost the tracks or nhra a few bucks extra for paying a loser one round later and would give a racer who just came out in the wrong end of a good race another shot. More of a earn back than a buy back......

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Ya know? I like that idea!

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Devil's advocate: Best losing package racer gets inserted back into the ladder to face a heads-up opponent that he's got covered. Explain to the guy that's won a number of rounds that he's got a heads-up race that he probably won't win... against somebody that just lost!

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

its worked for this long why change it. get beat and go home. No buy backs or earn backs.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Or no heads ups for a reinserted match up.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

^^^^^ There ya go! Ain't gonna happen anyway.

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Mark,

I really don't have any knowledge of how they made it work in later rounds. Before each round they would announce who had the bye run and that was all I cared about so I never looked into it.
At the AHRA Southern Nationals in 1976 car numbers were drawn for the bye run for the first round.
I ran two NSS races ( Gainesville, Atlanta) in '89 or '90 where they pulled cars for byes. This was when the NSS Association was in it's infancy but later went to the closest to index for qualifying but in Atlanta car numbers were drawn for match ups and byes; in Gainesville cars were matched by comparable ET's. After that the qualifying evolved to what it is today.

JimR

Re: Where you qualify is very important
 

Heyyaaaa thanks Tom! lol