Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

I just ask the crew on the west coast about running the roll cage bars through the dash beyond the firewall and attaching to the frame. They said there was no safety advantage in doing that and NO to the idea in stock eliminator. The NO is ok with me as long as we are consistent but am I missing something on the safety advantage ??? Can I weld the mounting plate to the floor pan ???

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

I wonder where he got his degree in mechanical engineering. .

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

What makes you think a mechanical engineer gave the response?

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

NHRA has never allowed any component that is part of the roll bar or roll cage to go past the firewall in Stock Eliminator.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

I was try to state that he was very ignorant in his response. Any roll bat that would extend beyond the firewall would be helpful in a front end crash.

The statement was sacasm

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

now there are 8 second stock eliminators, shoudnt safety be #1 priority. What is NHRAs reasoning behind not allowing roll bars to tie the complete chassis together? Firewall flex and broken trans cases can be dangerous at high speeds. Look how long it took NHRA to allow aftermarket brakes in Stock which in my opinion any component that improves safety should never be an issue. The other issue I have problem with is steering, I think rack and pinion should be allowed in all classes, to replace antique steering on most cars beside newer ones.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

Thank you!

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

Ho Boy, here we go again!
And extending the cage is ONLY a safety issue. There's NO performance benefit at all to stiffening up the chassis or getting that heavy-*** old steering out of the front and replacing it with lite stuff.
Here's a novel idea, If you personally don't feel safe in your 8 second Stocker, then get a 12 second Stocker!

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

That means cars that came originally equipped with a steering rack have an advantage.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

Does this even get looked for in tech ??? I find it hard to believe that the new stocker factory rockets are complying with this rule----- really ???

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

Yes, they do. Build a new car!

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

The Cobra Jet, COPO and DP cars, have a minimum of a 10 point cage that is good up to 8.50 seconds. Any car that exceeds 8.50 seconds, requires a SFI Spec 25.4 or 25.5 cage.

I don't understand what you mean by not allowing roll bars to tie the chassis.

You can take a roll bar and turn it into a roll cage and tie up the chassis by welding it to the frame connectors in a unibody car or welding it to the actual frame in a car that has a full frame. As a matter of fact, the rules requires in cars with a full chassis, for the roll cage and/or roll bar, to be welded to the chassis.

A well designed roll cage will not require any additional tubes to go past the firewall. I have seen many cars that run faster than 8.50 seconds with a SFI Spec 25.4 or 25.5 cage without any additional tubes past the firewall.

By the way, a well built roll cage, can improve the performance of the car.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

Just curious as to what advantage a newer car that came with a rack & pinion steering system has that can be atributed to the steering rack, besides weight? Personally I have seen too many cobbled together rack installations in cars that origionally came with steering boxes , all in the interest of weight, space packaging, or because its "trick", with no thought given to toe change during suspension travel, bump steer, or other geometry issues. Frankly I would feel safer in a 40 year old factory engineered steering box setup in the car that was so equipped from Detroit, than some junkyard rack unit scabbed into the same car. If you are so concerned about the percieved dangers of all the dangerous "antique" factory stuff failing from age, maybe you need to either buy a new Stocker, or buy a Super Gas/Super Street full tube chassis, so you won`t be concerned about all this worn out dangerous factory installed metal. I can see it now, they allow racks, and then some people will be whining that they need to have new fabricated tube front frame rails to make it fit properly. Then they will need hand fabricated aluminum special oil pans to clear the rack. Of course new billet titanium spindles and coil over shocks would be "better" as they are purpose built and free of years of driving stress,....where does it all end? If you really feel that a rack is such a major advantage, then build a car that was factory equipped with one. I`m sure the guys racing 390/427/428 Ford unibody cars wish they didn`t have those damn shock towers in the way, same with early Novas. I bet more than a few MoPar racers wish they didn`t have to deal with the front torsion bars too. Point is, all cars have some pluses and minuses in their factory issued equipment, thats part of the challenge of the game. Besides, if NHRA doesn`t think the average racer is cabable enough to build their own header collector retaining devices, not much chance we could fabricate our own steering systems, right? As fas as I`m concerned, NHRA has already allowed far too much aftermarket lightweight (oops, I meant SAFER more modern equipment) in the class as it is.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bravo!

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

x 2

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

Well said, Rory!!!!!!

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

If its a front steer car not much...if its a rear steer converted to a rack out in front lots.

There ya have it...I would like a rack out in front on mine too....but...hey wait, but I have got a 25.3 cage also.

Some of you guys have got to realize that there are "dual" purpose cars that are built out there, while they do fit into various NHRA "stock" eliminator classes they also are built to run with "big" power in many of the so called stock suspension "street" racing events across the country.

There can be a happy medium, just something for the purists to ponder

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

Some of you might remember Pappy Welds sprint car from the '60s that 2 or three drivers died in and the car still looked good. Stronger than most bridges and no crumple area. If you don't feel safe in your stocker build a super stocker.
My $.02.
Pete

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

Thats easy for you to say because you have a 1985 Mustang which was equipped with rack and pinion steering since 1974. The first GM rear wheel drive car to have rack and pinion was the 93 Camaro/Firebird, the first rear wheel drive Mopar to have a steering rack was the Dakota truck in 87. I have a 92 Firebird which has stock type steering but heavily modified for oil pan clearance and has a 40 year old Vega steering box. My car exceeds 160 MPH in the quarter. I have personally witnessed 3 steering boxes break after coming down from a big wheelie. Ive never seen a rack break. If I did switch to a rack, I would make sure it was the correct width and make sure the bump steer was right. Steering and brakes are safety items and there should be no rules that compromise safety. NHRA allows aftermarket brakes which is far more of a performance enhancement than a steering system. Allowing front frame rails to flex is also ignoring safety.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

OK, so put a STOCK 88 S-10 manual box in it! You don't have to modify ANYTHING like you did to put in the Vega box(that has a reputation for breaking). You could have even used the original pitman arm! OH, it weighs 5-6 pounds more than the Vega box. So for a few pounds on the nose of YOUR car, let's change the rules for everybody!

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

or buy a repop from flaming river/mullins/borgeson....and you can get them in aluminum,too

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

stock S-10 box wont work and it virtually the same anyway, my pitman arm is modified by Ed Quay to drop the entire steering system to clear my gigantic oil pan. The Firebird is a Super Stock/10.5 heads up car. Im just expressing my opinion on safety. My present stocker has a steering rack and doesn't run fast enough to even really need a helmet.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

I see 'em now and then broke from street driving


(I work for an independent repair shop)

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

it really doesn't matter if the box is new or not, one of the ones I saw break was a Flaming River unit on a G body Monte Carlo.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

I actually broke the rack on my 93 Mustang but that was my own fault hammering in a solid aluminum bushing that probably was a little too big OD

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

So YOU intentionally had a modification made to YOUR car that puts it and you into a dangerous situation(and me if I'm racing you)to clear YOUR gigantic oil pan. Well, here's a News Flash, modify the oil pan and put an S-10 box on it if you're all that concerned about safety!
OH BTW, a Vega box and an S-10 box ARE NOT virtually the same anyway,shape or form!

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

Ed Quay modified all the steering components and even installs a steering damper because otherwise the steering wheel will jerk out of your hand after coming down from a wheelie.

The only real difference is the S10 box is direct fit where a power steering box was. Ive never seen a Vega box break but I have seen 2 S10 and 1 Flaming River break.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

Great idea..............

Just turn the world upside-down so that an 8 second, 157 MPH stocker, which doesn't even belong in stock is safer.............

If a Stocker can run over 135 MPH it should be a Super Stocker.....

Do any real Stockers run over 135 MPH?????????????

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

I don't think he is concerned about weight...his car runs 160+ I would bet that part of his tuning routine he adjusts or "ADDS" weight to the front..

X amount of total car weight with 300 or 400 hp is one thing, but the same weight in the same car with 1000, 1200 or 1500+ hp is another, I see his point

But, what do I know

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

Yes

and doing it on 9" tires within the rear suspension rules of stock eliminatoris an accomplishment.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

I was asking the question because when looking at the NHRA Stock National Records I didn't see any records of over 135 MPH held by a traditional stocker??????

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

The 8 second Stockers already have racks, some of them are power too.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

The NHRA is reactive not proactive, just ask Bobby DeArmond.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

I believe Jim Waldo held the MPH record in B/S with his '69 Mustang at 135.XX when he sold the car, not 100% on that though.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

REAL Stock Eliminator cars don`t have 1000, 1200 or 1500 HP. REAL Stock Eliminator cars are based on factory built and sold production cars using engine and trans combinations that the average Joe could have walked into the showroom, and drove home. Sure there were some limited production special performance packages available, but the vast majority were pretty common. If you have only been following Stock for the past 5 years or so, you may believe that all these new Cobra Jet Mustangs, Drag Pack Challengers, and COPO Camaros are `mainstream`` Detroit cars, representing the same car you could purchase as a daily driver. They are NOT! These are purpose built drag cars with very little in common to the Mustang at your local Ford store. (Try ordering a new regular Mustang with a 2 speed Powerglide or 9 inch rearend). Many traditional racers feel these cars do not belong alongside the real Stockers (myself included), but thats not the racers decision to make. Also A NHRA Stocker is a specialized vehicle, relaxing rules so a `dual purpose car can alternate between running Stock Eliminator, and the same car with a no rules power adder engine is not what Stock is all about. There is much more to Stock Eliminator racing than simply using a 9 inch wide tire.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

Well yes, my 85 Mustang is allowed to run a rack because that is how the car was factory equipped! By the way I have also raced several 69-70 Mustangs, a 66 Fairlane and several others, I never broke a stock steering box, nor considered the steering box to be a liability. And to be honest, I like my 85 Mustang, but if the funds were available, I would much rather be racing another 69-70 428 CJ Mustang, or 390/427 Fairlane, even with the inferior steering box and tight shock tower engine compartment. Personally I think NHRA needs to enforce the rules it already has, not relax them. I never raced in the Farmer Dismuke days, but from what I have heard from racers who did, the rules were pretty black and white, with no leeway for fudging. I wish we had a no nonsense, by the rulebook National Tech leader at the helm today.

Re: Stocker roll cage bar beyond firewall rule......
 

Does IHRA allow bars ahead of the firewall in Stock?