EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

Since I switched from an older MSD ignition ( analog 6AL and blaster coil ) from way back in the day to a newer Digital 6AL and E-core style 8252 coil I have EMI problems to the point I can't get a steady , make that even anywhere NEAR readable observation on the balancer. I'm getting plenty of interference. I've grounded everything , used "Spark guard" , moved the mag pick up trigger wires.
Anyone else able to share some things you've done to stop it?
Magnacor offers wires they say stops it..........dunno.

http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/main.htm

read down to EMI suppression.....interesting.

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

There are 2 things to consider here, first have you tried using a different timing lite, I've used some that just will not work on an MSD ignition system. Second Where do you believe your "noise" is coming from? Every wire that has electrical current running thru it CAN emit noise, the trick it seems is in minimizing it. Before you spend a bunch of time and possibly money, borrow another timing lite and see if you have the same issue, a lot of lites' pickups are extremely sensitive to EMI, most modern wire sets are fairly good at suppressing noise. P.S. most dial back lites seem to be problematic when used on MSD ignition systems especially the digital ones.

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

I have 4 lights......Craftsman , Flaming River style ( self powered ) and a couple Actron lights.......they HAVE worked , now I'm getting so much noise and have no clue as to why........
I'm going to swap a set of cheap suppression wires and see if there is a diff from the MSD wires.................maybe that'll make it worse?:confused:

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

Where are you connecting the inductive clamp? Have you tried moving it near the plug end? Is the lite erratic or the timing erratic, or can't you tell? Does the engine run normally? I didn't see where you stated what wires you have or how old they are, older (with much use) sets can indeed start to leak. I've saw sets that when you turn the lites out in the shop and it's dark look like a fire works show. Also just a thought, make sure your power and ground wires to your lite as well as the pick up wire are not laying on or near any ignition wire. When wires start to leak a simple test with a spray bottle of water can locate the issue, with the engine running I'll lightly mist the wires with water and see if engine stumbles or I can hear arcing.

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

The engine is crank triggered...so its close..........just need to finalize the timing....it starts easily and sounds healthy. The wires are new MSD 8.5s.

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

OK, well I've never used any MSD wire but let's assume they are NOT the cause of the interference. Do you have an alternator, electric fan, electric water pump, and are any of them on when you're trying to time the engine?Also does the timing lite have what looks like a flash every other revolution or is it pretty much on? Have you tried indexing the rotor, do you have a steady lite doing that? Maybe try merely trying to get a steady strobe by moving cables around and see if you can get that first. You say it's a crank trigger set up, are there any wires near your crank trigger wiring? Sorry for all the questions but it's harder to find the issue without actually seeing the set up first hand. One other thing you could try if you have one...put a spark checker on one of your plug wires and see if you're getting normal spark or extra spark events.

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

How old are the ignition wires? Dumb question, but wires played heck with my data acquisition system. New wires solved the problem. My old wires were only 2 years old. I also was told to install a RFI filter which is a gloried capacitor.
With what you have described, it sounds like a ground issue.
Is the engine grounded to the frame, and the battery grounded to the frame. Is the ground sufficient for the load? Is the polarity correct to the crank trigger for the MSD?

As Joe described, or I am reading into where he is headed. Disconnect everything that takes or makes power, start the car and check and see if the problem goes away. Then add One device at a time.

Sean

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

What wire do you prefer?
The light stays on , you just cant make an sense of it. I usually have the water pump running.............electric.
BTW MSD tech....and I'm not impressed with them........suggest clamping at the cap , not plug.............and I dont think that worked .
I'm going to play around with this....... this afternoon

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

The polarity is correct....even if it wasn't , from what I understand that would alter the timing but it would still show as "steady state".
Grounds , well everything is well grounded but I'll look at all this suggested stuff today.

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

Joe FWIW, the wires I had were Accel 8.8 and it was suggested to install MSD 8.5 wires and the filter have never had a noise issue again.

Does the light do the same thing if clamped to a different plug wire?
Is the power and ground for the MSD box going straight to the battery?

Sorry for all the questions it's the only way to rule out stuff.

Sean

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

Can't really say I prefer any brand wire...Firecore makes what is probably the quietest wire out there, but again I would say your MSD wires are probably not the cause of the problem just yet. So you're saying the strobe is on all the time never flashes? WOW that would require A LOT of noise, any chance your coil wire is near where you're hooking up? that one is hot nearly all the time with engine running. I'd try seperating the wires out as far as I could, leave all other components off (water pump fan ect.) and try again.And yes, if your trigger wires were reversed you would see 10 degrees of timing change but it would be steady.

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

I dont mind the questions...thats why I'm here.
This grief is a pain in the arse to trouble shoot.
What filter and where is it?
I'll try another wire later today

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

LOL , no I didnt say its on "all the time" in THAT respect , I meant on all the time as it would be normally........just not readable.

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

http://www.msdignition.com/Products/...,_26_Kufd.aspx

I would not go buying this unless you have exhausted everything else.

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

So in addition to the other suggestions the nutbag at MSD suggested , why the hell dont they just suggest this?

Anyway , thanks. I look at everything else first

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

Yeah I've put at least 50 or more MSD ignition systems on cars, from basic 6al to the digital stuff and have never installed one of their filters. Though it's possible it may cure yours I'd bet if anything it may mask the real problem. I'll assume you've went back thru and verified all connections and lay out of wiring is correct? Main power and ground go to batt. positive and negative? Believe it or not if those 2 things aren't true you can have some real issues. I've seen some pretty cobbled up installs of MSD systems and for the most part they all worked, however as with most things when they add more "stuff" (digital systems) the proper installation is more critical. Make sure you've got all the wires ran correctly, not just the way they were with your old system. One last thought...where is your controller mounted at least in relation to the coil and high voltage lines?

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

I know that you are not going to believe this.......But I made a mistake ONCE

I had the pickup polarity reversed and the timing mark bounced around like crazy. This was on an MSD-7A and crank trigger....

With the shielded leads they did a color swap and that caused my problem....

I reversed the leads and the problem went away....

It seems like a pretty easy test to do and it might solve your problem..

Bob

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

That's what I experienced too Bob! The timing was jacked as well! All because I replaced the Ford distributor adapter to MSD plug with Weather pack connectors. We are our own worst enemies at times!

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

OK , Lets end this .......thanks for all your input BTW.
I had a friend of mine stop by with his plastic ( newer than my metal body ) Actron light......and it read the timing!
Actually surprised the crap outta me........anyway , my lights that normally work are suddenly quirky..........all those lights ( 3 ) are years old with the exception of my Flaming River light.......but his worked.
Anyway , I'm buying another light ( same as his ) now I'll have 5 lights LOL

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

Glad you found your issue, my first thing when someone local has this issue is to use my timing lite to see if that's the problem, then go from there. Guess one can never be sure. BTW you actually will only have 1 lite that works on your race car!

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

You remarked about everything being grounded etc. If you ground the shielded cable pickup wires, you just created a magnetic for EMI problems.
I did this, so I learned from experience.

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

Art, you are correct any shield should only be grounded on one end, by grounding both ends you're making an antenna.

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

OK
So what the heck is the ground for?
http://static.summitracing.com/globa...8862_cp_ml.jpg

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

True LOL

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

Joe the ground is for the shield, it should only be connected at 1 end to ground.

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

I dont follow..there's one pigtail.........how could you connect it at both ends?:confused:

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

Art had commented about grounding shields, yes this harness has only 1 lug end but others have exposed wires or cable that some people connect to ground. By connecting both ends of a shield to ground you can actually induce EMI issues. If you have connected the lug on that cable to ground then that is correct. Most older MSD systems would work perfectly with an unshielded crank trigger jumper or pickup when they introduced the digital systems unshielded wiring caused lots of problems.As I stated earlier, the switch from analog to digital systems opened up a lot of issues for quite a few racers.

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

Yeah . Me being one of them:)

Re: EMI / RFI and setting timing = problems
 

Just something everyone should know about timing lights;
The inductive pick up in most utilize ferrite. This is a magnetic ceramic material used to make the nest that the wire fits in in the pick up.
Ferrite is a very fragile material and if it cracks the performance of the pick up will be compromised.
better timing lights usually have the core encapsulated to help prevent this but I have a $400 Snap-On one that I once cracked the core trying to fit it on some real fat wires.

So what you think is noise could be a timing light problem.