Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

These are the skeleton of classes run successfully 3 years at a local track with several class breaks but proposal is for ONE class to test the interest.
Weight-3000 minimum Based on 9 lb /cu in.

Engine: small block chevy, mopar or ford.
Block 9 inch deck ht any overbore, Any Stroke no noticeable lightening of crank.
Rods: any length or type, Stock bearing size. Any Pistons and pins.
Valve train: any cam and lifter under.904 lifter.. Maximum lift .700 at valve.
No belt drive, chain only.
Valves steel or titanium. Max size 2.08 intake, 1.6 exhaust. 11/32 stem on valve.
Heads GM Brodix SPCH, Chrysler, SPMO, Ford Brodix SPFO. Intake and exhaust port must remain untouched. Only welding is for repairs . Brodix to tech if questions.
Angle mill or flat milled. NO PORT WORK under valve , Any valve job.Any Valve length or material. Titanium retainers and locks. Max spring diameter 1.550.Port plates allowed to fit larger header but cannot port head or fill to match header.
Intake manifold: any Cast Aluminum generally available to public. Any internal mods. Port plates allowed on intake or exhaust side.HEAD may NEVER ported to match exhaust or intake.
Spacer under carb Max 2".
Carb: Any single standard Flange 4150 Holley type 750 only. Any internal modifications but must retain stock choke horn.
Exhaust: Any Header with vacu-pan allowed.
Oil System: Any pan , no external pump or drive, no billet pump. Pan has sight hole 3/4" for ease of tech.
Accessories: Electric fan, water pump, fuel pump legal. Any battery powered ignition, Battery may be in trunk. Cool can legal. Stock Distributer position.
Rear end: Any factory produced rear end and gear ratio permitted.

Transmissions:Automatic any factory auto permitted with trans break. Air shifted okay.
Auto runs can run 50 lb underwt.
Manual: Any gear ratio allowed. Clutch must be used to shift all gears in conventional manner. 5 speed allowed.
Clutch pressure platge and fly wheel: AnySFI approved unit with clutch mearsuring no less than 10.5 inch with single disc only. No Counter weights allowed.
Suspension: Any after market allowed legal in SS rules. 4 link, ladder bars and coil over shocks.
Front suspension must be original factory style May use after market K member and A frames. Adjustable struts, shocks and limiters allowed.
Body: Stock or SS legal chassis. May use Fiberglass hood with scoop. No roadster, altered or dragster permitted. Wheelie bars legal as SS rules. FWD cars 50 lb heavy.
Frame: Full Chassis car with Roll cage per SS specs.

Tires: SS rules on wheels and tires except rear tires limited to 14x32
Drive Train: No Carbon Fiber or titanium parts except drive shaft for safety.
No Ceramic bearings in trans, rear end or front end.
Fuel: Check for C-12 only.
No Computer of any kind to monitor or control car.
Racing is .4 Pro Tree.
Tech will be wt, fuel and P and G. For protest heads may be sent to Brodix for final word if this is an issue.
Record run, winners and runner up subject to removing head and scope in pan. Carb also will be reviewed. Scope in Port or exhaust may be included.

Please review and consider these thoughts to make a cheaper class to enter and build. Maybe a few SS cars will come back to the tracks.\
Thanks Dick Butler and Randy Wilson. ( subject to corrections or minor adjustment)

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Good God, the season isn't even over yet and you're going to beat this dead horse again???

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I don't think you will have a lot positive response to this. Myself it would not be cheaper per your rules. I would have to build a new engine and buy another clutch set up just for starters. Just my opinion.........

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Wow! Tough crowd.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Also, no one is trying to "Convert" anyone. No one's trying to get cars to leave one class for another. The thought was to get parked cars possibly back.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Thought is that some people are sitting out racing because the costs are out of line. Maybe someone new might pick up an old modified or SS chassis and start here instead of fearing the 30K motor SS motors we now have...

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I'm not in any position to join in on this, but I really hope you guys get some interest. It would be a very entertaining deal to spectate!

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

With the spec heads listed it looks like Brodix would be sponsoring the class. Also , the valve size eliminates the Cleveland Ford along with the spec head.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

The spec heads listed flow virtually the same. Hence the lower cost, and not searching for the latest trick of the week. The whole reason why it works in other forms of racing.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

This sounds like it would be cheaper than a full-effort super-stocker, but maybe more expensive than a stocker. I have an old friend who still has his 331" Truppi-Kling engine from a B/SM he raced in the late 1970's. Throw on a set of spec heads, and he could be back in business for a while, although clearly not the fastest in the class.

This might get some traction with one of the sanctions if Brodix offered to partially sponsor the class. If they put up contingency money, every winner in the class would be eligible, since they are required to use their product. Brodix would not only sell heads to the participants, but also to bracket racers and aspirationals who run what they can afford now, but hope to try class racing one day. (Dave Ley's post went up while I was slowly typing this)

So, is that 3,000 lbs with driver?
What track is running the class now?

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

are you kidding?

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Technically he ain't kidding. A good bottom end will run with a newer good bottom end. If you take in the factor of not allowing a vac pump, you partially eliminate the benefit of super light rings. Someone may have a better take on this, but that's what I think most engine builders believe. I believe the cam, carb, and car setup will be the difference between winning, and losing.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Out of line costs this are certainly an issue, however not sure it's the cost of building the engines that's the biggest issue. You can easily find a decent piece on the cheap (outdated comp or S/S engine) that will get you in the game. The real issue is the game. The expenses have increased, entry fees, fuel and travel costs, this and that new rule, chassis certs, physicals, seat belts, lic. fees, lost work days (3 day points meets). There will always be some that will do it no matter the costs, just look around the pits at the new cars and combos, however most are current racers. Some merely shrugged their shoulders and went to the next race, while some chose to maybe skip this or that race and eventually found themselves parked for any number of reasons from lack of money, desire, or other interests. The next generation, isn't exactly beating down the door, except for a few 2nd or even 3rd generation racers, it's pretty lean as far as new blood. The reason is easily found, just go to your local race track and talk to the racers, explain the classes, rules, expenses, and payout and watch their faces. Most of the Next generation have little interest (other than the idea of just driving one) in class racing, it just doesn't make sense financially. Most all the "kids" I know plan their racing on the PAYOUT that is the first thing they concern themselves with, with location and entry fee being the 2nd and 3rd. It's obvious that you're looking for a way to increase participation but in my opinion you will not lure new or parked racers by bringing back 20 year old rules. My 2 cents

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I can only imaging policing the ceramic rear end bearings.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

it was just a thought Ed. Nothing more. To those who want it to happen, it won't happen overnight. To those who don't want it to happen, don't run it. Real simple. It may never happen, but what the heck. It ain't 20 year old technology. It's just cutting back on the technology allowed. Some don't want it because they like what they're doing now. I say Fine. Some don't like it because they would have a hard time without today's technology. But I can't for the life of me figure out why the ones who don't want a class like this, really care if there is one.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I guess I must be missing something. I've followed this "evolution" of the rules regarding this class for some time now,, counting the other threads that have dealt with this too, and heres what I don't get: I'm paraphrasing here, but you'll get my drift.
Rods: ANY length or type.Pistons: ANY type or pins.
Valvetrain: ANY cam or lifter-- under.904 & .700 max lift.
Intake: ANY cast aluminum available to the public.
Carb: ANY Holley "type" 750.
Exhaust; ANY header. Oil: ANY pan.
ANY factory rear end,,,, ANY factory automatic,,,, ANY this and ANY that. If that's the case,, then WHY are you joined at the hip to BRODIX heads every time this comes up? You've already established valve sizes,, why not put a maximum runner size,, 180, 200, 210, 220 whatever,, and let any, sorry, ANY manufacturers' heads play along? Is there a problem with AFR,, Edelbrock, World Products, Trick Flow, or others? Are you guys Brodix stockholders or part owners? It just seems when ever this topic comes up you've stuck with Brodix. I admit they have a fine product but why not open it up to the others?
Any cam could be Crane, Comp, Bullet, Erson, Elgin,, etc. etc.
Any intake could be Holley, Edelbrock, Weiand,, etc. etc.
Any carb "Holley type", is that a Demon,, Quick-Fuel, etc. etc.
I guess I just don't understand why this has to be a set in stone rule. If you guys are "in bed" with Brodix,, I get it,,, if not, then something stinks. I'm just looking for an explanation,, that's all. Thank you for your response.
Danny Durham

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Ditto. I read the first post and said "I'm out". I have 1500 bucks sunk in AFR heads on a 302 SBF that won't give that 3000 lb. weight based on 9 lb. per CID. And how is this an entry class when I can spend cash on stuff I can't run in GT like a 750 QF and light body parts?

Dale

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I ain't in bed with Brodix. I'm for ANY suggestions of a limited cylinder head. Show me another company that builds heads for the big three with same flow numbers for each casting, and spec cast into the intake and exhaust port, and I'm all for it. I think it would be great to have all 5 casting companys present a legal head. Does that answer your question?

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

To be clear I didn't say 20 year old technology, I said 20 year old rules they are not the same thing. A lot of the tech used today has actually been around a long time but was cost prohibited or rules prohibited. I'm in no way against your ideas, just stating my opinion as to the lack of new or parked competitors.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Fair enough.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Good Discussion. Is there any agreement that the motor would cost less for an entry racer? Or a returning SS or Stock racer?
How about the heads up format when enough cars are present. Idea might be an index like any other class and then it could compete at a points meet till enough cars are completed.
Good comments on Brodix. I think Randy explained his use of these. Racing Head or others could provide heads but the Brodix deal was by history of equal flow numbers.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I think it could be a good class. I would like to see the rules even more conservative like a super stock type bottom end. Flat tops and steel rods. Maybe even cut the max lift down to .650. keep the RPM down that way the engines would last longer.
Someone would have to actually get the class started and promote it to get the attention of the HRA's. Spec head thing could be a good move.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

I'm not against flat top pistons. Just trying to make sure the cars are in the low 6's or high 5's in 1\8th to make it interesting. That's mid to low 9's 1\4. They are pretty limited now $ wise. The steel rod thing makes zero difference to me, however, I spent $2,800 on a set of steel rods for our 286 so dollar per dollar, you may actually be costing racers more. The crank thing can be a huge savings by not allowing knife edged, and or extreme lightening visible through the inspection hole. We want to make it as affordable and easy to police as possible. The ceramic bearing tech brought up may be a problem, but maybe someone could chime in about an easy way to check it.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

We had inexpensive entry level class in Modified Eliminator about 40 years ago. A/SM, B/SM, & C/SM. Huge trun outs. Indy, at least one year, about 50 C/SM cars.
Eventually, racers wanted aluminum heads, full porting, sheet metal manifolds, 5 speeds and big tires. All this instead of buying another carburetor and making it a Modified Production car, and leaving the Super Modified rules alone. Same would happen here.

You guys really think heads would not get hidden porting? We have at least a couple of shops doing Stock Eliminator heads right now. Most people know this, and know who they are. It ain't cheap. Your not likely to win a heads up without them.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Ed, there was a great class in the 70's, and early 80's. In my opinion the racers were smarter then the tech guys, and also allowed shady things to go on. The spec head deal is a lot different from what they had then. They didn't have Chevy, Ford, and Mopar making the call, they had tech guys who just had to measure certain criteria, and what do you know, people cheated. I'd bet a $ to a donut that Brodix, or whomever could tell real quick if someone moved something, or opened up an area of that head. I remember a Brodix tech guy at Knoxville that checks spec at the nationals, and his comment years ago on the winner was, "Ray Charles can tell that head is modified." End of his little run. But tech did not catch it. Also, G-Force, and Jerico can make a slider you have to either kill the ignition, or tap the clutch, or it ain't coming out of gear. The HRA's let things go is why it went the way it did. Have a racer board to approve a head, or not, and if in doubt, have the protester pay a fee to have it sent in and checked out. It can't be that hard.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

So is a protested engine tore down before or after eliminations? Who makes up this racer board? If the racer board does not like the protested head, is it sent to the manufacturer and returned in time for eliminations? Everyone can see where this is headed. If you don't think you can beat someone, just put up the money and eliminate that racer for the weekend.

There is a lot more involved in racing than just proposing a set of rules. Enforcing those rules is a whole different story.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

There's a lot more to a lot of things than just writing rules. No cars head would be pulled till after elims. Haters gonna hate. I would carry a spare anyway no more then they cost. But that's just me. Again, if it goes, and you don't like it, do what I do with super comp. Don't run it. But I have zero problem with someone else running it

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

This class is what Super Gas should have been. JMO.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

No disrespect, but that is not true. If the clutch is set correctly the ignition and clutch is not needed to shift a clutch assisted G-Force or Jerico.

I am at a loss on your clutch rules? Dual disc smaller than 10.5" clutches are common place in Stock. If you want to eliminate the stick guys than your current rules have done so. If you want to limit the clutches to maintain a limited budget class then state no Billet or ONLY stamped steel pressure plates allowed. Not allowing counterweight does not even make sense. Again your rules allow unlimited on the automatic transmissions and hand cuffing the stick racers.

Sean

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Ya........good luck with that...at these / those weights , a spec head, 6.20s and teens will be the norm.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Sean is correct, though I no longer run a stick car even with a 7 degree slider shifting without a clutch was a breeze. And without a dog in the fight I do agree that it would severely limit stick cars who would be relegated to base pressure tuning only. A lot of work and much more difficult than using counter weight. I complained many years ago while racing a stick car about the weight breaks, buttons ect. to deaf ears.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

On the slider deal, you all may know more about shifting clutchless.We always used the clutch if we were in a clutch assisted class, so don't really know. I seen some people so bad at clutching, and shifting they picked up 2 and 1\2 tenths. We picked up just .06. That being said, this would be a must clutch to shift class, and put the driver back in the equation. It ain't rocket science, I can tell in one pass if someone is clutching or not. It ain't that hard. Then do what we did locally. Mount a roll bar camera, and make them back up there pass within .02 in full run, and .01 on 60ft. No need for counter wts. if you're using the clutch. Which is less expensive, a trick dual disc, or a single softloc? I don't know what the big deal is if everyone has a single disc clutch. It ain't like I have a trick dual, and you don't. I don't know that much about autos, but I doubt they would have an advantage. Now with NHRA wt. breaks, maybe. Again, if anyone hates the class, don't run it. Real simple. Probably never happen anyway, so calm down.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Also, I beg to differ on the E.T. prediction of this class. We have already ran 6.29 109.67 in 1\8th which is in the 9.90 range in 1\4. And we were at 10.5# per cube, and clutched every gear with a 289 C.I. at 3040# And that was our first try. With an NHRA legal 750. Also, people locally could actually understand whats going on. First one there wins, heads up.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Yes, the comparison is laughable.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Ok. Explain. Let me in on the joke. Would a dual clutch and computer make you quicker? Yes? Would a vac pump build more power? Yes. Would a hand fabricated intake produce lower ET's? Sure. Would unlimited porting on the heads help performance? Of course. Would driving clutchless lower ET? Sure. But they are not allowed. That's what Comp's for. We're trying to make it affordable. All these things limit money spent. That was our goal. Remember, it's the same for everyone. Again, if not interested, don't run it. But it might just be a hit locally, and again people can understand it. Something very few do today as spectators.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

The clutch rules don't make any sense. These rules must be proposed by some slush box racer.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

My reference was the comparison between the rules for stick and automatic cars.

Restricted clutches = restricted converters (Lock up converters for one, are not addressed)

How is it that a stick shift driver is required to make 4 clutch assisted shifts (Which I've done hundreds of times) and an automatic driver who needs to move a handle once or twice is allowed a chip-assisted auto air shifter? (Rolls eyes)

I realize your honorable intent here but in the end, or perhaps from day one an experienced racer with adequate funding will dominate this class and you'll be right back where you are today with a new, expensive heads up eliminator.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Could be right. No lock up converters should be addressed. That being said I ain't too bright on autos, so please explain. And I ain't being smart, I truly want to know. Is an auto better under these circumstances? We've also thought of only allowing clutch cars. I know Comp gives autos a 250# break, and their own index, and I've noticed both classes run realitively close to each other. I realize that's compared to a clutchless, but just my experience, and believe me when I say I realize we never had a Comp type clutch dialed in, but we only gained .06 going to a clutchless.

Re: Entry Level SS(MOD) rules proposed
 

Seems like a Stick racer should offer an inexpensive Clutch /trans rule that would be a good starting point. No lock up converter is a good rule suggestion.