belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Does anyone know if running a belt drive fuel pump in SS has been pitched to NHRA?

I sure do like that option, sure works well with bracket combinations.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

As most good racers know the rule book is laid out in a "Stacked" form. That is why the rules pages for Super Stock classes seem to get less and less as you move through the rule book. Super Stock goes all the way from Section 9A (SS) to section 9G (SS/MX)
The GT/Truck section is 9C. At the top of the page under GT/Truck you will see: Requirements & Specifications for GT/Truck classes are the same as those for GT/Car classes- section 9B with the following exceptions.
When you read section 9C and nothing is mentioned in it about your area of interest you move back to the section 9B SS/GT and see if you can find what you are looking for. If it isn't there you go back to section 9A Super Stock.
The way I read an older(2009) rule book (only one I have here at home) I find that there is no mention of Fuel Pumps in Section 9C or 9B, but alas I find what I'm looking for in Section 9A under the ENGINE:1 section under Fuel System.
It says "Any Mechanical fuel pump and/or maximum two electric pumps permitted." Then the Fuel system goes on to tell how the electric pumps must shut off and you are allowed one cool can and you only are allowed 12" of rubber line connection. The last thing tells you to see General Regulations 1:5.
In Gen Regs 1:5 we find Fuel Systems again. It has some sub sections IE: Location, Tanks, Lines, and Pumps & Valves, Fuel/Air & last Alternative Fuels.
In the Pumps & Valves sub section the first line says that cars with non OEM pumps must have a quick action fuel shutoff valve within easy reach of the driver. The shutoff must be between the tank and the carb or injector.
After reading the rule book (my 2009) I would say in 2009 you had a real good case for mounting a belt driven fuel pump in SS GT/Truck class.
You need to read the current rules in a current book and discuss them with the Div 4 Tech director. That is how a tech person and racer should read and follow the rules. the only other thing that needs to be checked is to see if that is mentioned in the Tech directors Policy and Procedures Manual. That is a rules clarification book that we don't get in the mail. They do...
I just happen to know where there is a 2006 copy of the NHRA TECHNICAL POLICIES & PROCEDURES
Section 1.8 deals with fuel. It says nothing about Mechanical fuel pumps in SS. It does have a section about fuel check. Remember you have to give a fuel sample, creative plumbing, maybe.
Larry, You have a choice of doing it and not saying a word. Just show up and race. Or check with the div. 4 Tech to be sure.
Well, that is about it...

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

how would you do fuel check at the end of the run?

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Bob,
That is what I implied by "Creative Plumbing"
In my 2009 rule book under 1:5 Gen Regs FUEL SYSTEM Pumps/Valves the last line says: All cars in Stock, Super Stock, Comp & Pro stock must be equipped with a positive-lock drain valve located between the fuel tank and the carburetor(s) or fuel injection to facilitate removal of fuel samples for fuel-check purposes.
The way I read that the fuel sample valve doesn't have to be on the pressure side of the pump. It could be gravity feed from the line going into the pump.
Just my .02
Adger Smith

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Got a drain valve on the proposed fuel cell for the Mustang...guessing that will suffice.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

must be equipped with a positive-lock drain valve located between the fuel tank and the carburetor(s) or fuel injection
Question? does that say "On the Tank"? Hummm I wonder if it will be good enough, too

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Bob Beal,

the simple answer is "idle the engine and draw a sample" However, it may be more complicated than that.

Or, take the belt off and spin pump with a drill motor :)

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

My reason for bring this up, after many rears of racing, from time to time I would have some "problem" with an electric pump.

Yet, after about 5 years of running a BLP belt drive pump not one single glitch. Idles with 2 - 3 pounds and adjust what ever high RPM pressure you want. Use a simple bypass regulator equipped with a small jet to set idle pressure. High RPM pressure is set with the adjuster screw.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

from a technical description stand point, a belt drive pump is engine mounted and mechanical.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Unfortunate they will not allow a fuel cell in the engine compartment.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

a rear mounted cell is completely acceptable the belt drive pump.

I have a bracket car that runs 5.75 with rear mounted cell and belt driven pump. I also know of others with same setup.

There may be a "g" launch number that becomes an issue.

However, I am specifically speaking of the Super 10 which will run low 10.'s ET

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Like Adger explained, the fuel sample is always taken between the fuel tank/cell and carb/injection. All valve installations must be easily accessible and the reason why they are located in the engine compartment.

With the engine driven pump, please explain how you are going to take the sample with the engine running and nobody sitting in the car? I believe the rules requires a person in the seat every time the engine is running.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

There's a difference between opening the hood or the trunk? No need for anything to be running my way and it's away from hot headers. I could be shot down again I suppose. There is no external hood release on the Mustang nor on most late model cars...the key is always in the trunk lock in my cars.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

SSDiv6,

In my case I would either have a helper or take belt off and run pump with a drill.

Also, in the case of someone using a mechanical pump mounted with the original bolt holes, a helper could be in car a start engine for a few seconds to take a sample.

Doing the above would be safest with an extension on the drain valve to move any possible fuel splash away from under hood problems.

Considering the two above examples, the most safe would be the belt drive pump run with a drill with engine off.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

just thinking, in the older days of fuel check and mechanical pumps how was the fuel sample taken?

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

You only need a small cup of fuel. The pump inlet should be lower than the tank for normal head pressure. Those pumps don't make good suction pumps, but great pressure pumps. Put a T just south of the pump inlet and bring a line forward through the grill area. You should be able to drain, by gravity, enough from the pump and inlet lines to fill the sample cup. Or you might have to go north of the pump and drain the fuel that is above the pump in the feed lines to the carb. Whatever works... that is what I mean by creative plumbing.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Adger, you are correct. When disconnecting the suction line from a low mounted belt drive pump you must quickly raise the disconnected end above fuel cell level. Otherwise you have a large spill in short order.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

LOL! So you plan to have at least a crew of two; one to help you at the staging lanes and another to wait at the scales?

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

I've been following this post, and I'm at a loss as to what is trying to be achieved here.With todays fuel pumps and regulators there is in my mind nothing that would make me even consider a belt driven fuel pump or a front mounted fuel cell. There are a few reasons I can think of not to run one, first how do you drain your fuel out after the race to put in a sealed container, next is the afore mentioned fuel check, adding a shut off, mounting the pump and the associated plumbing add to that that in the case there were a wreck and the car suffered severe frontal damage you have the making of a huge fire directly in front of you. Seems like a lot of work and hassle for a non existant problem. Of course a racer can do (within the rules) as they please I'm just at a loss as to why this would even be considered. Joe

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

My guess is most of the negative comments about the subject is coming from those that have never run such a set-up. I have used one on a Hilborn injection unit and can say they work extremely well. I have also not heard a good argument against using a simple fuel valve on the cell for drawing samples...it fits the requirements as spelled out in the rules.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Yeah I've ran a belt driven pump years ago on an injected small block, it worked very well for that purpose. I don't recall seeing it stated that was the reasoning for using it, thought this was for a carbed SS application. I'm sorry I misunderstood the application here.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

He did not state what combination it was to be used on Joe...was only making an inquiry.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

He wants to use it on a Carb SS application.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

OK went back and reread, it does state for SS application, though no mention of injected or carb. Now as far as the fuel sample at the fuel tank goes I can only give my personal experience with that. I had switched from my EFI set up back to my carb for a race, in doing so I failed to transfer my sample valve to my carb regulator. Of course I didn't realise this till I made my first qualifying pass, when I saw it I mentioned to the tech folks they said they would send someone over and observe me taking a sample from the cell. Did that went directly back to my trailer and put my sample valve on. guess what I'm saying is yes you could maybe do it that way but wonder how long before the tech guys tired of the extra effort on their part. Joe

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

SSdiv6,

You understate my helper resources :} I have been racing for about 50 years. I completely understand the logistics required.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Hand, I think you are correct. If a racer has not run one, he has no way to understand my liking it.

I began running a belt drive pump about five years ago. And I do like it, trouble free, low fuel pressure at idle, all the pressure you want at high speed.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

What extra effort Joe? I have never seen tech standing over anyone's shoulder as they drew a fuel sample. The rulebook does not stipulate which end of the car the sample is to be drawn from...only between the cell and the carb or whatever you are using. Like I stated earlier, most late model cars have no external provision for opening the hood...the key is always in the trunk lock of my car. What could be easier than turning a valve at the bottom of a cell? I doubt tech gives a red rodent's rectum how you get the fuel out...you pointing it out earlier only confused them. No doubt it will be easier to access under the hood on some cars if the cell is mounted directly to the trunk floor as it is in our Camaro, but I'm saying it isn't necessarily the only option.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

most likely, I will do an electric pump so I do not run the risk of tech folks not liking my choice.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

I would at least make the inquiry. I would mount a cell under the hood in a minute if it were allowed using a lesser fuel pump along with a lot less fuel lines, but that was disallowed per previous inquiry.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Hand, it is not a decision to make short term. Especially since the cab and bed are outside and the frame is inside :) Just gathering info for future consideration.

And I do have a number of new shinny parts to work with before a fuel pump is needed.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

No pun intended; been in the sport for 45 years. Why just add more work when an electric pump will just do fine and easier.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Handover fist, merely stating my experienses at the track, most of the tech people are aware that the majority of racers are under the hood for their fuel samples. Now could I have simply gone ahead and taken a sample out of the cell...yes would anyone seeing what I was doing had said any thing IDK. I felt it better to be up front and explain the situation before hand than to try and explain my actions after the fact. BTW they did have one of the tech guys come over and observe me getting the fuel sample, do they do it all the time I don't know I fixed my over sight and went on. The point I'm trying to make is using what is readily available, easily installed with no drawbacks what benefits would there be to utilizing the belt driven pump?

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

If you still want a fuel cell under the hood, you still have the option of running Pro Mod and be legal! :)

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Are you kidding? I can barely afford the Stocker's!!!

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Was just kidding! :)

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Fuel valve on the cell for drawing samples?

You must be racing at IHRA because NHRA does not allow that. The fuel sample must be taken from a valve located in the fuel line between the fuel cell and the carburetor.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

That is not exactly how it reads...mentions nothing about the fuel line.


Pumps/Valves: Cars equipped with carburetor(s) or nonelectronic






fuel (EFI) systems but with mechanical non-OEM fuel


pumps must have a quick-action fuel-shutoff valve within easy


reach of driver and located in the main fuel line between the fuel


tank and the carburetor and/or injectors. Fuel recirculation


systems not part of normal fuel/pump system prohibited. All cars


in Stock, Super Stock, Competition, and Pro Stock must be


equipped with a positive-lock drain valve located between the


fuel tank and the carburetor(s) or fuel injector to facilitate removal


of fuel samples for fuel-check purposes.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Well read it how you want, but the NHRA tech guys want it taken out of the line between the tank and carb or injectors. Taking a sample out of the fuel cell drain will only work until they see it. And they do randomly watch. But back tithe subject, in a performance based class (SS) why would somebody want a belt drive anything? I don't care what anybody says, a belt drive fuel has to take horsepower. Has to. And with horsepower coming at the premium it does, I dont want to waste any when a good electric pump works fine.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

Hand, You may read the rule about taking a fuel sample one way, but if you do it don't be surprised if they ask you to change it to under the hood. You may have a chummy tech guy in your div that goes along with your tank valve, but you might go to another Div and find they don't like it. There are several reasons for under the hood. If the hood is open sometimes I've had them check my carb to see if it is legal. They also check the sealing of the carb and engine when you set a record and when you do the back up run. Most of the time a tech guy meets you as you pull up to the scales with the circled R on your window.
A Tech guy couldn't do those checks in the trunk or at the back of the car. They also want to see the actual line the fuel comes out of and a fuel cell under the trunk is not an area they can do a good visual check. There are some guys out there that will cheat up on fuel and that is who they are looking for. I have been told of hidden fuel sources, both for running the car and for fuel check purposes. They run an oxy fuel and check with another. If you have something odd or out of the norm you could be looked at and scrutinized a little closer. In other words(street English) you can be hasseled. I'm not saying it can't be done I'm just telling you how a NHRA Tech guy thinks and works.

Re: belt drive fuel pump in SS
 

In addition to Adger's statement, I have also been told that the valve should be visually in the engine compartment, before or after the regulator, and in the event of not using a fuel regulator, before the carburetor or Throttle Body/fuel injection rail.

Yep, it's fun to get a fuel sample on a SS/Modified or Comp car that requires Dzus fasteners to the released for the hood removal!