Fuel Injection
 

I know this has been beat to death, but since most people who race NHRA got what they asked for by getting the "new" cars in their own classes. How about splitting out the FI cars from the normal classes like IHRA has done? If we're going to make things fair, let's make them fair for everyone. I'm sure the 68/69 Camaro guys would love to see the TPI group not be able to beat them up regularly!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all! God bless the racing community.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

24 hours, over 500 views, no replies. Guess we can pull it Ken? :confused:

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Interesting concept. That would include the "new" new cars, and the "old" new cars like the LT1 and LS1 & such. Wow. Nothing but 69 Camaros left. How about this. A class for 69 Camaros (A/69C,B/69 C etc.) and throw the rest of the contraband in one big bunch. Contraband, thats me & you & cooter dog & Hill & Hopkins & the rest of us contrabandies. What you think?

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Just wanting it be fair for all. We can keep the "new" new cars in one group, all other FI cars in another, then all the carb rides in their own???

Mr Jeff you're always filled with words of wisdom....lay it on us!!!

Re: Fuel Injection
 

How about breaking it down even further. Separate the cars by the owners income and amount spent on their car. A Hundreth off for every hundred earned/spent. But everyone must still get a trophy and no one can know what class the other is in because it may single others out.


Now, the Star-Bell Sneetches had bellies with stars.
The Plain-Belly Sneetches had none upon thars.
Those stars weren’t so big. They were really so small.
You might think such a thing wouldn’t matter at all.

Then ONE day, it seems while the Plain-Belly Sneetches
Were moping and doping alone on the beaches,
Just sitting there wishing their bellies had stars,
A stranger zipped up in the strangest of cars!

Re: Fuel Injection
 

been there done that--------- they tried fuel injection classes over 10 years ago--bottom line is nhra is too cheap to give the extra wallys and they use up their time for more interesting classes----sleds, turbo washing machines etc etc etc

Re: Fuel Injection
 

It seems that this plan would be the wrong direction to go.........

More classes = less heads-up runs in class and the eliminator......

The biggest class at INDY would be the Auto & Stick Combo Class Eliminator......

So much for stock being a performance based eliminator

That way all we have to have is shoe polish to race.........

We could be just like T-Ball and get a trophy before we go out for pizza....

Just the thoughts of an old guy who still appreciates performance...

Bob

Re: Fuel Injection
 

I think they got this one right for the most part. I think the drastic changes for SS went a little too far (Drag pak, copo, and cobra jet falling in FS/GT even with old engine). However, this just separates the engines that weren't available at the dealership from engines that were. You can still have a new car in regular classes. You can take a regular challenger and put a 5.7 Hemi in it and run H-J/S(A) with a 300hp rating. This is no different from how it has been for years. The factory rates engines that came in these cars on the street at a lower hp than their capability. However, you will not stick a factory engine in the car and go to the top of the qualifying sheet. They will still take some work to make them run.

If you take a look at nitro joe's stats, I bet the vast majority of the fastest cars from CC/SA -up have a carburetor (taking out the Copos, Drag Paks, and Cobra Jets).

CC/SA - Fastest Chuck Rayburn
A/SA - Bruce Noland
B/SA - Jim Boudreau
C/SA - Russell Linke (FI car)
D/SA - Randy Lyn
E/SA - Andrew Hill
F/SA - Myself (FI car)
G/SA - Gary Parker
H/SA - Chris Butcher
I/SA - Steve Szupka
J/SA - Frank Ferrucci
K/SA - Billy Lynn

Looking at this it doesn't appear that the regular FI cars are that dominant. In almost every class with a FS car as the fastest they were .20-.30 faster than the closest non FS car.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Valid points Cooter, as always. You have won IHRA championships and they have it broken out FI. Didn't seem to effect the successes there. Just killing time and throwing stuff out there. Understand if it doesn't make sense in certain places, it probably doesn't make sense for changes across the board.
Super Stock paints a much different picture than the one painted for stock.
Looking forward to the new NHRA classes this year...should be interesting at the big races!

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Brett,

There are very few new cars that attended IHRA races.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

As much as I hate to say it...... Eliminate heads-up runs during eliminations will talke care of all of it.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Then it is just another dumb-azzed shoe polish bracket race. I kinda like heads ups.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

The chance of more heads up runs is what I liked about the new stock class layout.

To be honest I don't see EFI to have distinct performance advantage. But I also base that off of the class where people switched to a carb and different intake and picked up with the better fuel atomization. I prefer EFI myself. I'm that in between age where I know a little about carbs but all my performance experience is on EFI.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Cooter gets it completely right. But I run one of them pesky 69 Camaros, so maybe I'm bias. And he runs one of them LS1's, so maybe he is too. Heck, maybe the majority of people and their old stockers get it too. All NHRA did was put their own spin on a Crate Motor class and said it had to be 2008 and newer Crate Motor stuff. It clearly is the best move for Stock Eliminator. A bunch of your fellow racers won't just go out and buy a new car to be competitive, they will just quit Stock or Super Stock racing. Lets be fair and call the Factory Racing Programs what they are, and they are NOT stock. They are Factory Stock.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Hagen & Cooter are both correct, as is the mention that you can put a carb on these engines and make more power. It has been done over and over. Fuel injection is no magic bullet. One advantage is not having to buy a high dollar Quadrajet (or whatever you run) from each race carb builder to see which one is fastest. I also have friends with carbureted Super Stock cars that have two from the same guy, and one is faster. None of my carbureted SS friends have only one race-built carb, they all have one faster than their other carbs. With EFI there is no magic ECU or keyboard. No worn out threads from too many jet changes, etc. Fuel injection only makes more power in some people's minds. They likely just truly don't know much about it. That stinking fuel injection is all they see.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Looking at SS H-K it would be really hard to argue against it. But I'm sure it's just the carb group just didn't work as hard on their stuff.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

They should be called what they really are...Factory Experimental.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Not many carbureted cars in the class I run, but Mike Cotten's car has a carb. Lloyd Wolford's Volarie did too, until he put a DP engine in it. Both have handed me my tail. You don't hear Jeff crying about their hp factors. But those are MOPARs, so........

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Yup

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Well said, Mr. Johns. Everybody wins, just like in t-ball. Can't hit the ball, no worries mate, here's your trophy. Show up for Class, not fast, Wally for you.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Brett You Have It Right!!!!!! But That Would Be To Easy For NHRA. That Is What They Had Some Years Back. It Must Work Fine For IHRA Becuase They Still Have Theres That Way. And They Copied NHRA And Left It Alone.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Does anyone think that a fuel injected motor is that much better than a carb motor? Those who run the 305's and switch back and forth, is there that much of a difference?

Does anyone think a guy, or gal, with a new COPO, Challenger or Mustang is going to run an "old" combo in it??? I don't.

As I look at popular combinations I see that those that were beat to death with hp from those guys who "work hard" on their stuff to go fast all the time, are at a disadvantage to those that are either fairly new combo's or the ones that were "taken care of" over the years. FI or carb, doesn't seem to matter.

So I think NHRA got it right by separating the new cars and their engine combinations and leaving the older FI combinations in the original classes.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Well stated Bryan!

Re: Fuel Injection
 

So Bryan, do you think NHRA was correct in not only getting everyone out of Stock and Super Stock with a new car 08 or later (except for the 2008 and newer Jelly Beans-tube chassis cars), do you think the pencil whipping that went with it was also correct. I guess it is also right that my 70 Duster is not only out of GT where it has been since 2009 and never won class anywhere, and got a two tenths faster index to go along with that with no weight changes or other considerations. And my SS-KA got the same treatment except it got a 2.5 tenths from 11.25 to 11.00. I am the only new car in SS/KA in the US, Canada, Puerto Rico, Mexico, and Australia and Ohio.
I spoke to them about this and I'm not sure it was intentional. I doubt if everyone noticed (I didn't) the difference in SS and GT between stick and automatic from SS/E-SS/EA ( one tenth) to SS/K-SS/KA (2.5) tenths and GT/A-GT/AA (one tenth) to GT/I-GT/IA (2.5 tenths). What happened I think is because they were adding 23 new classes to Super Stock Eliminator, they used the stick indexes like they did in Stock which resulted in a .05 index hit for all automatic new cars. I have asked NHRA to review this decision. Bryan, you got rid of Eric Bardekoff, Nick Morris, Craig Sullivan, as well as my Duster with the stroke of a pen in GT/FA. You also got rid of 3 including Mark Nowicki in your other class GT/EA. You didn't do this personally, and in your case, I would think you would be proud of NHRA. You didn't even have to go down the track. Just for information, there were 10 new classes created in GT for 16 cars that ran during the 2014 season. I think there are now about 110 classes in Super Stock. Can I say Comp, diversity, one car per class. Working well in Comp. Hopefully NHRA will reconsider these actions.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Jeff, if they would just fix the hp factors, nobody would mind running the new cars heads up. I have talked to a few guys that have dyno numbers from the 360" DP like you have, and LT1s like mine. Have not talked to anybody that has seen less than 70 hp difference between the 360", and the LT1 that I run. Most tell me at least 80hp difference. The LT1, which you keep crying about being under rated, and "Needs some hp!" Yet, your 360" is rated 4 less than my LT1. You act like your car has been outlawed, and you can't race it anymore. You just won't have the easy heads-ups now, and the other guys in your class trying to avoid you on the ladder now.

As far as that nasty fuel injection, why don't you talk to engine builders that have dynoed these engines both ways? Bobby Warren, Gary Stinnett, etc. Most everybody I have talked too see 25 more by just putting a carburetor on them. Bobby Warren told me he found that with a Quadrajet on his LT1, not a big Holley. We don't all have 1000 CFM throttle bodies.
You crying LT1s or fuel injection would be like me calling everybody else too fat and too ugly.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Well said Ed!

Jeff, I didnt' say they got it totally right. As far as the indexes go, some are a little steep. However, trying to convice me that the combo's like the 360 Drag Pak and the 352 CJ should still be in GT, won't happen. Any combo (360) that is capable of running in the low 9.0's, high 8's at GT/EA weight, does not belong. Now, if you put them at like 350 hp, then maybe, just maybe I would say yes, only because they would be running the classes they should be, GT/AA or BA. I will never listen to anyone, friend or foe, who tries to tell me that motor is anywhere near factored correctly.

While I did have nothing to do with the new classes being created, I will not be sad to see them go. Every time I ran cars you mentioned, I got outrun easily, and when I say easily, I mean easily! By at least 2 tenths. And I know those cars were only set up to go fast enough to beat me, taking into account that I would have a much better light! So I'm sorry I can't agree with you on all accounts, but we can still be buddies! LOL.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Ed, you first. I would take a good 4 bbl in a minute. We have put it on many times to verify things on my 360. We are now at 284. Your math is a little rusty. 80 HP. Wow. My dnyo must be junk.

Bryan, the New Car Owners Association has taken the position that all classes should not have stick and automatic as we are now. That would mean you get the same two tenths treatment we got in your hp/lb. I think NHRA is listening. Easy way to lighten the number of classes in SS. Way too many now. We (new car-new motor) have about 100 or so in SS and GT and growing. There were 767 Super Stockers who went down some points earning track. And I know I am old, and a little slow, but I can't find any GT/EA who went 9.00 in Nitro Joe's Stats. Maybe Nitro ain't as good as he used to be.

I know what mine does, and I beat Larry Hodge by 3/100 in Indy. All in, all done, all out. So I get .25 hit. Yeah, that seems fair. I don't think Larry's car is a new car. If we can't get some help on this, I will probably just change combinations.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

>Ed, you first. I would take a good 4 bbl in a minute. We have put it on many times to verify things on my 360. We are now at 284. Your math is a little rusty. 80 HP. Wow. My dnyo must be junk.

Jeff, I don't know it your lying, or trying to be funny. Hope it was the later. That 284 was funny. LOL
That would put my LT1 about 200?
If your dyno showed Cooter's making 800, as you posted, something is junk.
If you think Nitro Joe's had people's fast runs listed, your kidding again, right? Only if at a national open where AHFS is not in effect. How about 8.90s in GT/EA? Or SS/IA? I know who did, and if you are going to be honest here, you surely do too.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Ed, you ran 10.08 @ 3240 minimum in SS/JA. I have never been that fast, I have been 10.19 in SS/KA. Both in good air. Course both are SS cars. Cam, Intake, etc don't matter. I think you got a point of compression on me. My wheelbase in 116 inches, I think your car is a couple feet shorter. I got ten cubic inches. You got a Chevrolet. That means that 8 million, 3.42 Hundred thousand, 968 people have worket on that thing. I would think it's pretty close by now. Parts for that thing are available at Walmart, K-Mart, and Walgreen. Is your motor the same as Ricky Decker? It's also 279 factored. All them doorstops yall race look alike. He went 9.70 something @ a little less than 3000 lbs. Is that the same combo. Both RWD, and both have had the aforementioned multi million people research team. The only thing worse for parts than a 360 is either Captain Jacks large boat, or Gen III Hemi stock replacement pieces. According to my trusty Moroso Power Speed Calculator 89650, for a car to run 10.08 @ 3250 lbs, it is about 575 +- HP, and low and behold on the previously discussed Calculator 89650, a 3475 lb car to run 10.19 takes 590 HP. Pretty close. Unless you are sandbaggin. I ain't. Now I don't know Mr. Moroso personally so I can't speak for the slide rule, but those numbers work on my motor, course I got that junk dyno, so maybe not. I'm just not sure where you and my Fireman Friend Bryan get the numbers. The fastest 360 in all of Nitro Joe Kingdom is 9.59 and that is is GT/FA. Bryan might have gotten some of that fire foam in him at a fire? I hope not. I have never seen anything close to 8 seconds in any recorded official NHRA race. Maybe it's the UFO effect. And there is always the possibility that Nitro Joe's Stats are brutally wrong, but it has never happened before. I'm sure this discussion will continue.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

I'm defending myself, the runs in my stats where made at a NHRA/IHRA race where cars where scaled and put on a sheet, divisional event, national event and national opens, test and tune runs, rumored runs ect is not in my stats, case in point, Rich South's car went 8.93, but it was not at any of the 3 places I said above, so the run is not in the stats.
I try my best to make sure I have the correct runs, but I do make mistakes at times but I try.
Thanks

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Jeff, you have a point more compression than mine, ten cubic inches, bigger valves, bigger ports, much bigger throttle body, and a hp factor of 275, with about 60 more CFM intake port flow. The fiat engineers designed your heads & intake as a race engine deal. Mine was a 50 states emissions legal street engine that got great gas mileage. I know how fast Lloyd's 360" DP could run in SS/IA, if you can't run nines you need to work on that sucker. And, no, mine is not as fast as Ricky Decker's. As I have said before, I don't claim to be fast. There are a lot of guys faster than I.

If you think everybodies fast runs are in Nitro Joe's, I have some ocean front property up here for sale. LMBO

But, I know that you know better than that.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Ed, the 360 is at 284. That 'super head' is an Edlebrock from about 2003 or 2004. Just got a Mopar # on it, and a higher price. If you think these are good, you should have seen them in Top Stock configuration. What IHRA did in those days, they took the three approved small block motors and gave each one the runner volume, chamber, the same. Do what you want, just pour. All the same. Not a bad method. If you take the 360 DP head, and use the Chev volume, it's worth about 30 more. But then again, I don't know what chevy head they were using. They all look like doorstops.

Nitro, far be it from me to question your published numbers. We all hear about these 'ghost' runs, but they never seem to have scales, fuel, or at some race nobody cares. When I see that 360 go in the 8's, I'm gonna buy it, or trade beer for it. Sure gets the multitudes talking.
I pulled up the formula for Compression Ratio, and LT1 came out about 12 to 1. The Decker motor is published @ 12 to 1. Mine is 11 I think.
As for the fastest run not being in Nitro Joe's, refer to the ghost runs mentioned above. If the runs were not at a points or national race, then all you have is conjucture. You know, as far as I know, if you don't get caught speeding, you don't get a ticket, and it don't go on your record. Probably different in Oklahome and Penn.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Jeff, you need to go trade some beer for Lloyd's car, or hire James to build your engines.
You need a new calculator if you took the LT1 engine specs and came up with 12-1 compression. The GM heads Top Stock used were LT4, much bigger ports. That engine came in some 1996 Corvettes, and Pontiac Firehawks that SLP built for GM. That is not what Mr Decker and I have. I don't have an engine building business like you, nor a professionally built engine. I cobble my junk together best I can in my 2 car garage here at home, using all I can afford on Social Security. I'm not wealthy like you.
Do you ever hook up the other two barrels?

Re: Fuel Injection
 

You missed my point. The heads we run on the dp cars have much smaller runners than that head, the LT4 I think you said. You and Decker got the same motor? They both 275/279. I can't run with the fast cars. There are more slow ones, than fast ones. We are a small community. I think I will put a 5.7 motor in my car and run ss/ja. Ain't that your class? Ed, you really have to expand your horizon. You have wore out the big valve, big port etc. Maybe the 70 MM cam or something like that. Let me think about it, and my people will get back to you.

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Jeff, I clearly said the LT4 was a different heads. Not what we can run.
Read it again. Maybe wait until tomorrow before you hit the beer again.

I hope you know big head flow is where the power is? I know you sell cars, so maybe ask "your guys". The only way that 360" could be slow would be somebody not trying. Nobody knowledgable would look at the 360" DP blueprint specs vs the LT1 specs would say the 360" should not be rated a good bit higher than the LT1, much less lower like it is. Ray Charles in his present condition could see that. Especially if they talked to a cylinder head shop about the flow numbers. I have talked to two SS head porting shops. Was told the same thing by both. "No was an LT1 should be able to run with a 360" DP." I would hope by now you would know what a big deal the heads are. Ask James Caro about cylinder heads. Ask Sammy P, next time he comes in, if the heads aren't the big deal. Everybody else seems to know. That 1000 CFM throttle body doesn't hurt either. I flowed mine, under 700 CFM.
Heck, Jeff, won't your car fit SS/JA with a 360"? You can probably get them to let you. LOL Pull some weight out. I'll help you get some badly needed hp.
Sober up Jeff. LMBO

Re: Fuel Injection
 

Beer,that is whiskey talk!LOL