Piston Ring Spacers
 

Does anybody have part #'s, prices for Available,in stock spacers. I'm not interested in the kind that go behind the rings as I don't have access to a lathe anymore.These would go on the top or bottom of the 1st & 2nd rings. I've been able to find articles & pictures of these things. But never in a catalog with a part # & price. I've seen them .016", .030" & .046". My application is a 4.020 bore. :confused::confused::confused:

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

In the Total Seal catalog,they probably have an online catalog

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

Keith Jones, at Total Seal.

It's called the "Advantage" ring system.

They do not have an online price list.

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

Akerly&Childs also make them at lower prices. No one makes them for Dykes rings.

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

I had been exchanging emails with Kieth Jones @ Total Seal about rings. Here is what he told me.

I generally set these hop with a 7-8lb oil (very light).
we can fit them with groove spacers and put a .8mm top & 2nd ring in them. That combo is the best of the best but is also the most expensive.

We did not get to prices yet. But someone told me to plan on a grand or more to get them. Does that sound right? Is it worth it? I need to get back with him on prices. But kind of dropped the ball on my end. So I cant give any info on that myself but would like to hear what others that have bought them have to say. Before I waste any more of his time.
Thanks
Rob

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

I don't suggest those without a lot of experience, control of their bore finish, and access to a dyno try to use an oil ring with less than 10# of tangential tension, and 12# might be better.

The vast majority of "do it yourself" guys are best served with a 10-12# oil ring and the 1.0MM or so compression rings with spacers, and the "gas ports" on the top ring spacer. Get the Napier cut on the 2nd ring, too.

Given a relatively "common" bore size, you shouldn't need to spend more than $650 or so, maybe a little more.

When you get into the ultra narrow compression rings and ultra light oil rings, one very minor mistake can be catastrophic. Yes, they can be made to fly, if everything is right, but if everything isn't just right, they can be very difficult to deal with.

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

Alan, with a 4" bore with a Napier 2nd ring, I have not found more than 7lb oil rings needed. I can tell you 4.5lbs is too light. :-)

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

First off thanks for the advise. I'll save my money for something else. Right now I have the Napier seconds in it. and a 8lb oil ring. Honestly cannot remember what the top ring is without going to the shop and looking in my notes. It does not seem to be having a oil problem. And my leak down numbers are good after just 40 runs. Main reason I'm tearing it apart is because I just kind of did a cheap engine to see if I liked the class racing thing. I like it so far with just one National open, one combo race and a bunch of trips to T&T to sort the car out a little and try some stuff. So I am taking it a little further along this winter. If all goes well I will go some more either during the season or next winter. Who would you recomend I call about the top rings with the gas ports in them?

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

Total Seal has the spacers with the gas ports. Get them from Keith.

If you get by with less than 10#, that's great, don't get me wrong. I just don't suggest it for everyone, simply because not everyone has available to them everything it takes to make it work consistently and reliably.

If you're running Napier cut second rings and 8# tangential tension oil rings, you're not going to gain much more there.

While good leak down numbers are nice, I've seen some stuff that leaked great and ran like crap, and stuff that ran great and leaked like crap. The key is dynamic seal. How much actual blow by exists in the RPM range between peak torque and 200-400 RPM past peak HP?

If you're going to try to run the really narrow rings, you need to have the pistons built with that in mind, and the clearances set for that as well. Have Keith give your piston manufacturer the ring groove dimensions, and make sure everyone agrees on everything, such as your machinist agreeing on the clearance and the finish.

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

650 to 1000 ??? Thais 1/2 to 2/3 of my whole engine. I'm hoping those are the gas ported spacers & not what appeared to be a roll of .016 shim stock. Mine is just a cast flattop 2bbl 351C that so far struggles to 6K. (1.21 2bbl) I was just hoping to get a little thinner ring like my bracket motor had.. (1/16 file fit vs 5/64 non-file) The bracket motor would leak around 8%, the 351C I can hear leaking , @ around 35%.

Edit: But what about leaks like crap & runs the same ?

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

After reading your first reply. I instantly gave up on the narrow rings. I've been bracket racing since the mid 90's. But there is a world of difference between here and there. And I know that and don't have any experience in this S/SS stuff so I best leave those rings alone till I get some more. I agree on the leakdown numbers but its all I got to work with for now. Kieth has said he would give me some instructions on how the block should be bored and honed. I'd bet he would do the same with these other rings your suggesting. I got what seems to be a good machinist here. They have never done me wrong so far. If I had half a brain I would probably just call one of the places like you that do S/SS engines for a living. But I'm one of those hard headed types that has to try himself first before I write a check LOL
Thank you again for helping me.
Rob


Dave
Kieth never quoted me any prices. I was told that price by another racer. Little over a grand in a whole engine? Man I got that in my heads and I got inexpensive but good used ones from another racer that changed combos. I have been told that if I really want to go fast I need to spend 3500 or more for a new set. I'm actually thinking about doing it. I guess I love work and hate money. I will say this Stocker thing seems cooler than bracket racing so far. LOL

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

Rob, I'm not saying you can't run the super thin rings and make it work. Keith will certainly help you as well, regardless of which set of his rings you buy. I would want to start with a clean sheet of paper to run the sub 1MM rings. You can find some power. But I'd want to start with a fresh block and pistons, done the way Keith tells you.


Dave, I'm not sure I'd spend any money on a set of pure race rings just to put them on a set of cast pistons. I seriously doubt the cast pistons are going to have the precision ring grooves necessary to make really good rings work well. The flip side of that is that if you really have more than 10-15% leakage, even on a set of stock cast pistons and rings, you have serious problems, and I doubt buying an expensive set of custom rings will solve them.

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

the hone job, precision ring groove and inboard piston are what's needed for the ultra thin rings...and if your tuneup is setup to make power, a vacuum pump and pan gauge to tune by. Now a pumps not legal and guys are going to say they did this with that but......


IMHO......

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

OK i'm gonna divert my own thread. 3500.00 in a set of iron heads ??? Liberally I can see a grand in parts. A concentric valve job a 1/2" deep ? Back cutting the valves ? ...... Where's the rest going ?? Roughly 2000.00 for flow bench time ?? :confused:

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

You're not just paying the guy for what he does. You're paying him for what he's learned, and for what it costs to do business.

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

OK, I know of two flow benches in the area and one hasnt been used for years.The other is owned by a local stocker guy. Would I take him a dozen heads or is it all in the seat ?

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

I will tell you about mine...
16 dell west copper seats $480
16 .502 bronze guides $144
8 ferrea hollow stem intakes $392
8 ferrea comp + exhaust $268
16 7/16x11/16 rocker studs $450
16 rockers $460
16 adjusting screws $180
16 Pac springs $340
16 Pac retainers $308
8 Pac round locks $32
8 Pac sq locks $32


that's $3000+ in parts alone, they have a legal valve job, they are not acid ported, they hold legal volume, they flow 300+ at .502


71 Boss 351C


I will sell them for 10,000:eek:

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

I thought kind of the same way at first. Then I got to thinking about it. Not unlike any other job. You have to do it for years just to learn to be the best. Then your going to have a large expense in equipment. Then you are going to have to spend some unpaid time doing some R&D on different heads to see what each one likes. Unless your going to use your customers as Guinea pigs. Which is not areal good way to build a business like that. Sure eventually you would figure it out but your likely to upset some customers at the start. It kind of like at my repair shop. People aleways question my flat rate. And why it cost so much to fix cars. I just open the door from my office to the shop and start pointing at different pieces of equipment and what they cost. The little box with the 5000 dollar scan tool that I have to pay every year or so to be updated ends their questions. Because they realize how many cars I have to fix to pay for all that stuff before I get to put a dime in my own pocket. Yes over the years you get some of the bigger items paid off. But you work your whole career to make up for the first few years where you damn near starved to death so you could have the equipment necessary to build your business. If these heads were for street cars you could just throw a valve job on them and let em eat. But they are tring to turn streetcar stuff into Racecar heads without porting them which is not the easiest thing to do. I can't imagine what SS stock heads cost LOL

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

$450 for Rocker Studs? Wow!

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

And bearings, trunions ect

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

S c h o o l e d !!!!

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

Not to contradict you, Alan, but an interesting story. In the 70s when we all had to use OEM replacement pistons in stock eliminator, we were experimenting with spacers and Dykes rings in our 283 with factory cast pistons. A friend of mine worked as an R&D engineer at a local A.O. Smith factory in a laboratory with lots of high tech testing and measurement equipment. He was also a dirt track racer on the side and had a "mad scientist" personality when it came to projects with race cars. He saw the spacer-ring pieces I had bought from a highly regarded go-to supplier at the time and was concerned with the way the spacers were manufactured. He wanted to measure the uniformity of the spacers since they appeared to be just formed wire. So he takes rings, spacers and pistons to his work lab and uses some million-dollar electron microscope to get measurements for every piece down to the 1/10000000 inch. The spacers were junk, the rings were okay, but what surprised him was the accuracy of the ring lands. He said on the four pistons he measured, the ring lands were within .0003 of being perfectly flat, top and bottom, and the width and depth were within .0002 of being exact. The next week, he called around through GM (A.O.Smith was a major vendor to GM) and connected to an engineer at Dana-Clevite, the supplier for the pistons. That engineer, who was responsible for QC, made the comment "We cut ring grooves on a machine that cost $23 million dollars. How much did you spend on your lathe?"

I would be surprised if that story is relevant today, but it helped me build a strong respect for factory pieces.

Re: Piston Ring Spacers
 

No doubt there have been some good quality pieces like those made over the years. I wish there were some being made now. The industry suffers a bit from quality problems for the "budget" or "stock replacement" stuff. Pistons have been a problem off and on, they go over the border, and come back, then they go over seas and come back, and so on.