New Eliminator proposition
 

Proposed "New Eliminator" classes

First of all, in order to attempt to create a new eliminator class, it has to
be friendly for NHRA to administer. My most recent "tear down", was a 4-5 hour experience.
What I propose is a "New" modified production eliminator. Relatively easy to enforce and administer as compared to the current "stock and super stock" cars…, a "tear down" would amount to pumping the engine for cubic inches, fuel check, measuring the carburetor(s) and weight. This should amount to about 15 minutes, instead of 4 hours.

I propose that it works something like this. It would be run CIC like comp. Divided into 2 types of cars. First set of cars, restricted to a certain size carburetor (I recommend a 600 CFM), and 9 inch tires.

The second set would be multi-carburetor and maximum of a 14" tire.

Every car would be classed based on cubic inches to weight. So, a multi-carburetor car with big tires would be AA/MP, BB/MP, CC/MP and so forth…..while a single carburetor car with 9 inch tire would be A/MP, B/MP, C/MP….and so forth…based on cubic inches to weight…....down to a class for 6 cylinders and 4 cylinders, both having single and multi carb designation.

So, very likely, you would have approximately 18-20 different classes competing in one eliminator category.

IMO, all cars need to be "door slammers", without any tube frame components. Same engine manufacturer as per car. (Chevy car, Chevy engine, etc.) Absolutely no fuel injection, turbos, or blowers, just complicates the process. Fiberglass components allowed because it is a cubic inches to weight proposition.

A lot of details would need to be worked out obviously, but I believe that NHRA would be receptive to an Idea that takes "Man Hours" and expenses out off the process, and keep it simple.

What do you think?

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

As long as the goal is for something new and improved, how about making it the first handicap category that will use a “worst” redlight.

The other handicap categories? Let them continue wallowing in the nonsense of “first” redlight.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Sounds interesting!

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

I like the idea of new classes, but not the no E. F.I. It's time to come out if the dark ages, cars have not been produced with a carb in 20 years. If you want new blood in racing, you have to cater to what the new generations are accustomed to.
Fuel Injection and no breakouts are something they understand. I agree to no power adders.
If the NHRA really wants to attract new blood, have exciting sportsman racing, and keep costs somewhat reasonable, they should explore something similar to NMRA's Coyote Stock and NMCA LS Stock.
Corporate bodies, stock type suspension, and factory sealed crate motors and tune ups. Comes down to chassis and driver. Very affordable, and factory involvement to boot.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Make it really easy. Make all the cars weigh 3200# plus 170# for the driver. I'd skip the "two types of cars" to keep it simple. Everyone gets one (4150 series) carburetor and 14"x32" tires. Five single carburetor classes, five indexes. Easier to factor and police.

A: 470 cubic inches maximum (440 minimum), canted valves, with a 1050 carburetor.

B: 420 cubic inches maximum (390 minimum), inline valve true wedge, with an 950 carburetor.

C: 360 cubic inches maximum (350 minimum), inline valve true wedge, with a 850 carburetor.

D: 305 cubic inches maximum (285 minimum), inline valve true wedge, with a 750 carburetor.

E: 300 cubic inch V6 (minimum 270), inline true wedge, 750 carburetor.

Cast iron OE supplied block, any OE supplied cylinder head, cast intake, steel connecting rods.

NHRA approved carburetors.

Clutchless transmission, maximum 5 forward speeds, 14"x32" tire, back half, fiberglass hood only, factory glass. For automatics, 150# weight break.

Pump for displacement, anything suspect comes apart. Any compression ratio, any valvetrain, any porting or polishing allowed.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

From a year or so ago.

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...ied+eliminator

I think it would be great

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Does Dick Butler know about this?

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

I appreciate the alert to this. Seems there are several groups of people who like the idea of return to Modified for ease of tech. Some for lower costs if limited parts use. Refer to our posts regarding Econo Modified to get use of old SS cars with Brodix heads and very basic engine rule at LB/Cubic inchs.
Bottom Line there are MANY reasons to create a basic, cheaper, less tech class.
You will find many downplay the positives for fear of losing their current combinations and its advantages. (rule book created). A favorite fear is that money will dominate. If the class rule LIMITATIONS cut basic costs of Motor up front doesn't that count? as an advantage?
No One will Have to race a cheaper class, No one would have to give up their Bogus Hp cars but when the factoring Hammer hits there could be a more level place to race based on skills too. Besides there would still be eliminator for bracket style points meets and Nationals but winning or improving on past performance by tune up or skills could become a goal again, to say nothing of friendly competitiveness.
I do support a CHEAP SS class with basic Mod changes....

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

No way, Bunkie.
If a guy can afford to build and run AA/MP, he should have that advantage...

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

I've got a new idea for a "Heads-up" eliminator that's guaranteed to be inexpensive, easy to police and full of thrills! Any full-bodied car, any engine/trans combo, any suspension, any induction, any weight, any cubic inches, on a .5 pro tree.
After the race, any competitor can buy the winners or runner-ups car for 5K. Biggest purse the market will bear paying to the semis. End of year points fund with big money going to the top 3 places!

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

And again some people are "serious" about discussing possible improvements.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

You're right Dick, it IS a joke. Kind of like discussing creating a new, "heads-up" eliminator at a point in time when NHRA can't even fill a Pro Stock field! Or for that matter, a T/S or T/D field.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Billy, Maybe the fact that a Major cut in price by a sealed (fill in Brand) motor or Basic Mod motor could allow those who are on the verge of being priced out of S or SS to stay with it would count. Maybe making a simple tear down would be worth it to a group of Class Racers. Maybe many people could see "their advantages" allowed in a simpler class car. Still keep the rest of the classes, Still have a dial in for bracket race races but Keep It Simpler...NHRA problems in other Eliminators isn't related to this discussion. SS and Stock have racers, today but the factoring, High $ , Tough tear down and lack of a true entry class might all be solved by one class for MANY racers.

Long Term the Factory classes will be Pro Stock anyway just due to Cash required and lack of recognizable cars in Pro.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Pro Stock is unobtainable for the average person, and T/D and T/S are still just quick bracket racing. And yet classes like Coyote Stock in the NMRA, while only a few years old, are continuing to grow. There are people building for that class that have never drag raced before. The problem with the NHRA losing car count is basically this: older racers are getting out, and there is nothing to appeal to the younger racer. Give them a class that they can run without a breakout and be competitive in for a reasonable budget, and I know it would grow. Especially given the fact that guys could then run in divisional races without having to travel all over the country like is currently done in the NMRA/NMCA to run 7 or 9 (or whatever the current number is) of events. I'm not saying it has to be a Coyote, or LS, or for that matter, a factory "anything". But a sealed crate motor with a sealed tuneup opens the door for a lot more involvement.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Stock and Super Stock racing as it is now is not broken. . NHRA will continue to tweak the system . Only a very few racers are complaining the majority are happy with the rules as they are now . no need to change much .

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

That's One vote for no changes...Everyone is entitled to One vote....If many are looking for options within NHRA they can vote also.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

double like!!

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Wow.....lots of good posts. Don Kennedy, I agree, stock and superstock is not broken, except for the "no horsepower" for new cars. Very simply, if NHRA is ever going to allow a new eliminator, it absolutely has to be simple to administer........Newest categories, Top Dragster, Top Sportsman.......vertually no time necessary for NHRA to regulate. Safety check the cars.....top 16 or 32 qualify....must run within ? of qualification time.
I feel strongly about 2 categories of Modified Production.....first category (double AA, BB, etc), multiple carbs (no boosters).......14 inch tire. Second category, (single A, B, etc)....single carb, 9 inch tire...Where I seem to have a difference with some posts is the size of the carb changing with the class......I believe one size carb for the single carb cars....my preference is a 600 CFM....If you want to run A/MP with 500 inches, make it run with 600 CFM....(no real opponent of a 750 carb as long as it is 750 for all single carb cars)... We don't want to make it easy for competitors to run fast, they will have to work hard on the combinations......but we have to make it easy for NHRA tech to administer.

It goes like this.....OK, you want to run single carb Modified Production......easy to make horsepower (relatively speaking) with a 300 cube engine and 600 CFM carb......you want to run A/MP, much harder to make horsepower with a 600 CFM......Your choice.....\

Absolutely needs to run like Comp with CIC......resent the CIC periodically, and start from scratch.

EFI and turbos could be added later, depending of the success of Modified Production. But needs to be easy for NHRA.

Realistic, A tear down for a stocker.....cam lift, bore, stroke, carb measurements, wheel base, overhang, pull a piston with rod for weight and compliance, intake compliance, etc..... this 2 category Modified Production.....pump the engine, fuel check, measure carb, and 5 seconds to check tire size.

Good Luck

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

How are the proposed classes not like the super mod classes in comp? And any time it comes down to no break out and weight to cubic inches, it is going to get very expensive very fast.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

always impressed that many open minded people realize it might be better to get away from Third Handed HP ratings and easily manipulated AHFS and use Cubic Inchs for a Basic class.
THe econo Modified discussion in earlier posts indicated how to limit costs. No computer for eliminations, any flat top piston, Spec Brodix heads, Spec carb, Lb/cubic inch any SS chassis with any rods, any crank, No external vacuum, no external oil pump. Hole in pan to police. Stock placement of Dist. Spec spring and Cam size. Might even give wt break for regular chassis versus FWD chassis of 50#.
Take off headers to check heads, tech Carb, Check wt, and look in pan.Pump.
Easy tech.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Here is a rule set that is already in place and working, so there are already cars to draw from. There is also a similar class for the Ford guys. Pick a crate engine for the Mopar guys, and then you have a HEADS UP class with the 3 major brands, and tear downs become a non-issue. Also eliminates the costs associated with experimenting with cams, valve jobs, ring packs, etc, etc, etc. Lots of cars that are gathering dust could easily be pulled out of retirement, and with an engine swap, be racing. Rules could easily be adjusted to include SS type cars also, because at this hp level, there is no real advantage chassis wise.
While the NMRA and NMCA are fine small scale sanctioning bodies, I think a class like this would be a major deal if ran at NHRA/IHRA.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...89381419,d.eXY

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

And this is the Ford version


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...89381419,d.eXY

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

something is coming:eek:

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

With the improvments seen in converter techknowledgy and what is being done with transmissions. I do not belive that automatics should get the weight break. Today a pretty even deal, in my opinion.

Dirk

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

I don't know that I agree with that, especially on a lower hp deal. The auto still robs more hp than a stick.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

How about a combo that lets you run NHRA/IHRA and NMRA. With a tire change you could be racing anywhere and anytime. Builds the sport. Gives older cars an opportunity to run. Win Win.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

I thought that's what I proposed above? Granted, there is not a place for the older engines, but the older cars can race. Problem with older style engines is that it is going to be impossible to get the factory involvement the new engines have. Plus, if you don't do a sealed engine, sealed tune, (once again, much easier to do and monitor with computer), then you start back getting into the "trick of the week" club, where lots of money is spent testing and trying new parts. Pretty soon, the low dollar guy gives up on a "heads up class", and goes back to bracket racing.
The only reason I can think of that someone would bracket race over heads up racing is that they don't have either the time, know how, commitment, or money it takes to field a competitive heads up car, (or any combo of the above). The classes I proposed eliminates the majority of excuses.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Professor Dave hit the nail right on the head.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Which post was that?

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Post #19, Dave Ring.

You guys are all ignoring the elephant in the room. That being the almightly dollar. I don't care what rules, what safeguards, whatever you propose, if it's a heads-up eliminator, you're going to be out-dollared - period. The person with the most money wins. Always has been, always will be. Do you think that the system of indexes and AHFS appeared out of thin air? It has been a slow, concerted effort to keep the playing field level. It isn't always perfect but it's the best system going.

This horse (new heads-up eliminator) has been beaten to death so many times I can't count them all.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

You will spend more keeping a Stocker competitive (for class races) than you will one of these. Coyote Stock is in it's 4th or 5th year, and as competitive as ever. That is why they went ahead with the LS Class. A friend of mine just put together a new car for Coyote Stock and was within a 10th of the number 1 qualifier at the first race of the year, and there is nothing trick or high dollar on the car. The sealed engine and computer takes the "rich guy" factor out of heads up racing. There is only so much you can spend on bolt on suspension and drivetrain before it becomes a driver and chassis tuners race, instead of engine builder/tuners race.
It's not inventing the wheel, it's already being done. I just think it would be even better on a national platform like one of the 'HRA's

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Here is a outlaw heads up class that uses the rules below It is called ultra street, yes they do run against power adder classes, some 1/8th mile some 1/4 mile

N/A WEIGHTS:
N/A Inline head – 2650
N/A Non-Inline head – 2750
N/A Buick/Olds/Pontiac - 2975
N/A (big block with 9.8 standard deck height and conventional head) 3000 lbs. (add 2.5 lbs per cu in over 589)
N/A (big block Ford with standard deck height and conventional head) 3000 lbs. over 589 add 100 lbs.
N/A (big block with tall deck height and conventional head) 3050 lbs. over 589 add 100 lbs.
N/A (big block with 9.8 standard height and big chief head) 3075 lbs. (add 2.5 lbs per cu in over 589)
N/A (big block with tall deck height and big chief head) 3100 lbs. over 589 add 100 lbs.
N/A (big block Ford with standard deck height and non conventional head) 3125 lbs. over 589 add 100 lbs.
N/A (big block GM with Symmetrical port/non conventional head) 3125 lbs. over 589 add 100 lbs.
N/A (big block Ford with Pro Stock/Symmetrical type cylinder heads) 3225 lbs. over 589 add 100 lbs

GENERAL:
- No Billet cylinder heads/blocks

This past weekend in Memphis $2,500 win, $150 entry

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Tony, Probably people would be interested in how many cars show for the Coyote class.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Dick,
There were 16 at the season opener, in Bradenton. It was the biggest heads up class, including ones that have been around since the beginning of the NMRA.
A lot of guys in NMRA are from the North, and don't make the trip.
I think on average there have been 18-20 showing up, with many more new cars being built. Like any other new class, a lot of people waited awhile to make certain it was going to work out. There are already a handful of new cars ready to run this year.
The brand new Chevrolet Performance Class just had it's inaugural NMCA Race in Bradenton, and had 4 cars show up, but many more being built. I think the plan is to eventually run the 2 classes against each other in the NMCA.
I'm not saying the rules would have to be verbatim, because truthfully, I don;t like the current trans rules. Stock/SS type trans and clutches would be better in my opinion.
I'm excited to watch the Chevrolet Class grow. They kept minimum weight at 3200lbs to make the old body styles competitive. They were in the 10.70's for this very first race, and should get quicker.
Coyote Stock guys are running 10'30's at race weight.


The cool things that help keep these classes in check is that the sanctioning bodies can and will check/swap computers in the staging lanes to ensure they are not tampered with. If one car starts to show a huge advantage over the others, a quick chassis dyno will let them know if something is out of kilter performance wise. No tear downs required, just a fuel check, weight, and computer test.
The drivers are required to sign a agreement in advance to not alter the engine, computer, or sensors in any way. Grounds for suspension.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

There were five cars at Bradenton.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Ultra Street is a cool class, I have friends running it. But it is not a cheap class, even though it is somewhat limited.
I have 2 good friends that are brothers that were both in the finals of each of their respective heads up classes in Memphis this weekend. (Chris and Brian Tuten) Of course rain ended it and money was split, but they were both in good shape to win.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Sorry, thought I typed 5. Fat fingers, lol


I wouldn't mind running the Chevrolet Performance Class, but once again, the closest race is 2 hours away, the rest or 7 or more. Having a series large enough to have divisionals, and I would start building tomorrow.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

It looks like it will be a fun class. I am building one. I should have it at Atlanta.

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

Atlanta is the close race to me, lol. What are you building?


Edit. Just saw the Formula. Should be a great combo.


Am I wrong in believing a class like this would quickly grow in the NHRA?

Re: New Eliminator proposition
 

I don't know. Stock racers are a hard headed bunch.