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-   -   Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=58145)

Slickfoot 05-26-2015 07:10 PM

Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
I just hit a brick wall when comes to adjustable rockers for my stocker. have Comp. 877 lifters. I have had helpful info from two of my class racer friends, and I'm thankful for thier help. I tryed to find ford racing M-6564-B351-C rocker , not to be found at any price. Comp. 1052 not to be found. Neather of them are made anymore.
I hate the thought of trying to shim with the 877 lifter that takes a 1/4 turn in. I think that would be about .025 in. , but how would you know with no adjuster , and just shimming.
Any one else make a adjustable rocker for the E7 head ? And if not how would you adjust by shimming
Thanks
Slickfoot

HandOverFist 05-26-2015 07:51 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
I see plenty of Comp on ebay Slickfoot, but they are pricey.... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-302-351...626687&vxp=mtr

Jegs has these as well at a slightly higher price.

Alan Nyhus 05-26-2015 08:17 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Harland Sharp #S40076A are readily available as well. -Al

HandOverFist 05-26-2015 08:23 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Harland's... http://www.summitracing.com/parts/csp-s40076a/overview/

FED 387 05-26-2015 09:17 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Roush Yates racing
Last Call racing
Levittown Ford

all say they have them between $375-430 per set of 16

Jeff Blanchard 05-26-2015 09:17 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Lane Automotive has Comp 1052-16 in stock $442.99. Wonder why they would quit making them?

Snaxwell 05-27-2015 10:30 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Comp Cams did a new re-design on those rockers. They are Gold now part# 19052-16

Is it legal in Stock to do screw-in studs and guide plates on the heads?

JHeath 05-27-2015 10:44 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Bruce Bachelder told me NO, pedstal mount must remain pedestal mount. rule book says the same.

Snaxwell 05-27-2015 10:55 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Thanks, JHeath. I was looking at an old rule book I had nearby. It is spelled out pretty clear in the 2015.

JHeath 05-27-2015 11:16 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
1 Attachment(s)
Maybe this conversion kit from Crane Cams would work.......maybe, all bolt-on.

FireSale 05-27-2015 11:58 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JHeath (Post 471826)
Maybe this conversion kit from Crane Cams would work.......maybe, all bolt-on.

I don't know about this. The book says Original configuration only (or words to that effect). Stud must be stud, pedestal must be pedestal, and so on...

The OP needs to ask tech before thinking about this.

Dale

Tand E racing 05-27-2015 08:31 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
i use the 877-16 lifters as well,shimming the rockers isn't hard to do just have a good dial indicator handy.

Bobby Fazio 05-29-2015 07:18 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JHeath (Post 471819)
Bruce Bachelder told me NO, pedstal mount must remain pedestal mount. rule book says the same.

What year did the pedestal mount start? Were they on E5 heads?

Chris1529 05-29-2015 10:42 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
My dad has an 83 street Mustang 5.0. It has pedestal mount.

Bobby Fazio 05-29-2015 02:30 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Lol well that tells me Bruce bechelder's ruling and the rulebook ruling on this topic isn't worth the pdf it's printed on. The "head guys" are cutting the pedestal and putting nice beefy 7/16 screw in studs in with big valve springs so do whatever you want. Why are we wasting time with 5/16 pedestal bolts?

rawhide 05-29-2015 04:28 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Fazio (Post 472019)
What year did the pedestal mount start? Were they on E5 heads?

1977 I believe
Roland

Slickfoot 05-29-2015 08:58 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
I put a call in to Div.1 tech sapport on this , no call back as yet. I wander what rockers Jim Kuntz has on his 5.0 builds ?
Slickfoot

kwm 05-29-2015 09:17 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Fazio (Post 472051)
Lol well that tells me Bruce bechelder's ruling and the rulebook ruling on this topic isn't worth the pdf it's printed on. The "head guys" are cutting the pedestal and putting nice beefy 7/16 screw in studs in with big valve springs so do whatever you want. Why are we wasting time with 5/16 pedestal bolts?

I have a letter from Bruce stating that on my 307 Olds I must use a pedistal rocker

BRETV 05-30-2015 09:58 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
I ran Kuntz motors for years in a 87 Mustang M/SA car that went 11.80's 12 years ago with 5/16 pedestal mount rockers and that was with stock stamped steel rockers before the roller rockers were legal and they worked just fine. just my $.02




Bret Velde

Slickfoot 05-30-2015 02:15 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
I could only dream of getting mine in the 11s, I'll keep trying, with a little help from my freinds on class racer.
Slickfoot

SSDiv6 05-30-2015 06:58 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
The subject of rocker arms in Ford blocks has been a debate for many years because different tech folks at NHRA have made different rulings throughout the years.

Many years ago, in the early 1990's, Jim Skelly approved the Crane conversion system shown earlier, for Cleveland and Windsor engines and there were many cars running the conversion.

Also, Mopar Big Blocks were allowed to run adjustable rockers because they were used on the Max Wedge and small blocks were allowed also because the 273 engine.

Some years ago when the rules were changed to allow guide plates and studs, there was not clarification for the use of the original configuration, therefore, many went ahead and followed the rule book and did so.

When the rule book was changed again a few years ago to allow roller rockers, then many racers started to ask NHRA about the configuration. Therefore, NHRA then again, revised the language adding that the engine must maintain its OEM configuration without taking into consideration the previous rule book change prior to the allowance of roller rockers that allowed the use of guide plates and rocker arm studs.

Slickfoot 05-30-2015 07:25 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Do roller rockers really make any more horse power ? Or is it a matter of covenience. Seems to me that the stock rockers would be more reliable. Once there set-up I can't see how they could lose there adjustment.
Slickfoot

Mark Yacavone 05-30-2015 08:44 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Slickfoot (Post 472181)
Do roller rockers really make any more horse power ? Or is it a matter of covenience. Seems to me that the stock rockers would be more reliable. Once there set-up I can't see how they could lose there adjustment.
Slickfoot

You would think they would make more power, but I 've seen several examples where they didn't.
The reason for the change is that NHRA doesn't want cars breaking on their track, and slowing down the show.
We've seen stamped sheet metal rockers split in two , or punch out the push rod cups, with the springs they allow you to run now.
But the main point should be.. Everybody ...or nobody.
Garden variety Chevies didn't come with screw in studs and guide plates. If they can modify the heads, why can't everyone else?
Shafts where shafts were, studs and guides everywhere else.
End of story.

Slickfoot 05-30-2015 10:12 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
I agree Mark, It should be the same for everyone. It's been 45 year since I raced in stock and was the same back than. They will cater to who will put the most asses in the seats. That being said, there has to be something done , because the two best legal roller sets the Ford M-6564-B351-C and the Comp 1052-16 are no longer made.
Slickfoot

Bobby Fazio 05-31-2015 07:25 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Is the crane conversion kit worthwhile?

Slickfoot 05-31-2015 08:54 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Thanks Bobby
I don't know anything about it. I'll will see if I can find on line and check it out.
Slickfoot

HandOverFist 05-31-2015 09:05 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
If I was determined to go that route I would can the conversion and just have the pedestal bases machined down for standard screw-in studs. http://www.mediafire.com/view/mq88m1...M-6564-All.pdf

Bob 05-31-2015 04:00 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kwm (Post 472092)
I have a letter from Bruce stating that on my 307 Olds I must use a pedistal rocker

Then why does the Marion Stephenson/Don Forester 1980 Olds get to run screw in studs and pass tech? The engine in this car has been thru teardown many times with screw in studs and guide plates, never having an issue.

The "must retain OEM design" wording in the rule book was put there to keep everyone from switching to shaft rockers. You are allowed to switch from pedestal to stud mount. You are not allowed to switch from pedestal or stud mount to shaft mount.

Lee Valentine 05-31-2015 05:01 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
When I had my Mustang l made the stock rockers adjustable using screw in studs and guide plates and it was OK.

Slickfoot 05-31-2015 07:36 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Well it seem as clear as mud ! If the Div. one tech person gets back to me, we get a ruling on this. Do you think they will put it down in writing ?
I have never been through a tear down,I don't know how crazy they get on a ruling by a different tech.
Slickfoot

7423 05-31-2015 09:29 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HandOverFist (Post 472241)
If I was determined to go that route I would can the conversion and just have the pedestal bases machined down for standard screw-in studs. http://www.mediafire.com/view/mq88m1...M-6564-All.pdf


That would be a valid DQ.

As per the 2013 nhra rule book, (the latest one I have), section 10A page 3, stock class rules..............cylinder heads...........quote "Any evidence of modifications from the original castings will be grounds for DQ"..........here comes the good part............quote "as determined by nhra in nhra's sole and absolute discretion"

Any lawyers in the house?? What does "sole and absolute discretion" mean??

I had several 5.0 class racers tell me to wack the pedestals for studs. So I asked Bruce one year at Somona. His answer............"absolutely no"

I run the oem rocker, fulcrum and bolt with a shimmed lifter, works just fine.
Your mileage may vary.

HandOverFist 05-31-2015 10:06 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 7423 (Post 472306)
That would be a valid DQ.

As per the 2013 nhra rule book, (the latest one I have), section 10A page 3, stock class rules..............cylinder heads...........quote "Any evidence of modifications from the original castings will be grounds for DQ"..........here comes the good part............quote "as determined by nhra in nhra's sole and absolute discretion"

Any lawyers in the house?? What does "sole and absolute discretion" mean??

I had several 5.0 class racers tell me to wack the pedestals for studs. So I asked Bruce one year at Somona. His answer............"absolutely no"

I run the oem rocker, fulcrum and bolt with a shimmed lifter, works just fine.
Your mileage may vary.

Granted...I use pedestal mount myself. My point was "if" someone were determined to go with studs I would absolutely forgo that conversion crap for a conventional stud arrangement.

Mark Yacavone 05-31-2015 10:07 PM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 7423 (Post 472306)
That would be a valid DQ.

As per the 2013 nhra rule book, (the latest one I have), section 10A page 3, stock class rules..............cylinder heads...........quote "Any evidence of modifications from the original castings will be grounds for DQ"..........here comes the good part............quote "as determined by nhra in nhra's sole and absolute discretion"

Any lawyers in the house?? What does "sole and absolute discretion" mean??

I had several 5.0 class racers tell me to wack the pedestals for studs. So I asked Bruce one year at Somona. His answer............"absolutely no"

I run the oem rocker, fulcrum and bolt with a shimmed lifter, works just fine.
Your mileage may vary.

Don't see how, Charlie.
They're talking about port modifications.
Screw in studs have been legal since forever. When they start DQing Chevies and early Pontiacs, then I'd worry about that rule.

Tony Corley 06-01-2015 06:18 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
The rules seem pretty cut and dry to me. They state pedestal mount must remain pedestal mount, and stud mount must remain stud mount. If it was a pressed in stud, then replacing with a screw in stud would still be legal, because it would still use the same style of rocker arm mounting.

Chris1529 06-01-2015 07:03 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Corley (Post 472325)
The rules seem pretty cut and dry to me. They state pedestal mount must remain pedestal mount, and stud mount must remain stud mount. If it was a pressed in stud, then replacing with a screw in stud would still be legal, because it would still use the same style of rocker arm mounting.

I agree.

Slickfoot, are you breaking the 5/15 pedestal rockers? Is that the issue?

HandOverFist 06-01-2015 08:31 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
I believe the OP is in the midst of a build and just trying to clarify the rules.

HawkBrosMav 06-01-2015 10:58 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
The reason this rule is clear as mud is because many people across the country are getting different answers from their tech guys...

it was legal in the PAST to cut off the pedestals and make it a stud mount. You had to make it work with stock parts which was very doable on the E7 head as we did it. When they changed the rule to allow the aftermarket rocker arms this became illegal. The rule clearly states that if it was pedestal it has to remain pedestal. if it was stud it has to be stud and if it was shaft it hast to be shaft.. there is no way to misinterpret the rule the way it is written..

The biggest issue is people have gotten away with having a different style rocker setup for so long no one went back and changed their setup when the rule changed. And I would venture to guess that people that "have had it this way for years... why is it illegal now?" have gotten away with it in tear down. Why is that fair to the new guy that now has to follow the new rule? Luckily it looks like I got a set of the rocker arms the OP is looking for before Ford racing stop making them. otherwise I'd be in the same ****ty place he is.

BTW we have a set of heads the we had about $2000 in that are now illegal the way the rule is written.. guess what, we took them off the car cause it's ILLEGAL.

I wish I had some ides for the OP as to what to do. Was actually going to be in the market for another set soon and this will make things difficult.


Brad

7423 06-01-2015 11:11 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
After 4 pages of comments and thoughts from various racers, we have about a 50-50 split in opinions. We can all read English but here lies the problem. The nhra gospel does not spell out an answer in English. Their ruling is covered under that verse "sole and absolute discretion" . Have you ever noticed how often that phrase is used in the rule book? East coast rules, west coast rules, this techs rules, that techs opinions........all "absolute discretion".

That being said, I was very happy to witness a tech official (thump) the side of my battery during fuel check this past weekend at Fontana. Maybe there is hope.....................

Chris1529 06-01-2015 11:19 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
Don't the Ford Racing rockers the OP was looking for have to be shimmed as well?

Bobby Fazio 06-01-2015 11:23 AM

Re: Rockers for stock Eliminator 5.0 SBF
 
I just saw a machined pedestal turned screw-in stud equipped with roller rockers and guideplates set the record last week and pass teardown. I was very happy for them, they are my friends and we helped them in the teardown but I kinda gulped when I saw the heads and got really nervous for them but it was not questioned at all. All the other aspects of the head and block were checked and passed.


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