Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Back when NHRA started and Class racing was a main part of the program there were only so many cars to race. That number of fords, Chryslers, chevies Pontiacs and oldsmobiles were factored by the factory hp ratings. Some became winners some losers.
People became excited and chose winning combinations from their favorite brand.
Lets say there were 40 cars that had readily available pistons, cams, headers etc.
Lest say with 40 years each year 40 more motor, chassis combinations were available, 1600 Combinations. More development of Cams headers, tires have made it possible to outfit about any motor with racing parts.
If you built a 1955 chevy or ford by the time it was 1970 every year a new, "better" combination could be used. You had a decision. Could you afford to sell and build new? Some did this and became dominant. Those left with the lesser competitive cars have had to suck it up and be satisfied to race the bracket portion of the racing if they could qualify.
NHRA with their light factoring for new combinations, 400 motor, injected motors, all the way to COPO or Blown cars have continued this extinction of hard working car owners who could never hope to keep up with a more lightly factored car. It happened every year and hundreds of people lose their edge in class and become disappointed that they cannot afford to keep up. Some quit, some just race less, some develop the attitude that they should USE the factoring weakness to develop a "one of a kind" to rub it in someones face by qualifying #1 or mashing their former classmates with their bogus combination. Sometimes they get factored and then THEY are mad because now its their turn to be stuck with an also ran.
This is why I believe that when Mod was stopped the only continually level sportsman classes were destroyed. LB/CI with spec limits is the only way to continue to enjoy your chances of winning a class with fellow racers.
Too Many Classes only was a form of allowing more $paying entrants who didn't realize it but they were attempting to create a place they could shine with their hard work by hiding from other bogus combinations.
Think about it and you will understand our position in Stk and SS racing. Even combinations or one combination classes were always competitive and fun till someone produced something unfactored or outside the understanding at the time which produced a killer car. Then the class had to become ALL the newer find or no one else could hope to be successful with just their hard work. Money to buy new car, Money to sell old cars at a loss and disappointment were the results.
We need a Level playing field class system not based on someone's Guess of HP. Not with apples running oranges but 350 running 350 at same wts and equipment. You choose the way its done, Spec, Crate, Sealed motor or..... Modified Eliminator.
Thanks for reading.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Not to be respectful, but that's .90 racing.
I've been in the game since the 60's and
it's always been the same. The smartest
s/ss builders and drivers always find a way
to win or just have fun ! Whine less and
enjoy racin' if that's what you want to do.


Bob

Adaptation and ingenuity trumps whining.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Most of what you posted here is simply not true - here at New England Dragway this weekend is a '55 Chevy I believe is a Q/SA and he has the exact same chance as I do in my COPO to win this race .Period .All he has to do is run the number after getting a good light .

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

[QUOTE=Jack Matyas;476789]Most of what you posted here is simply not true - here at New England Dragway this weekend is a '55 Chevy I believe is a Q/SA and he has the exact same chance as I do in my COPO to win this race .Period .All he has to do is run the number after getting a good light .[/QUOTE0

Jack, Bracket racing eliminator is not what the post is about. Any bracket car from any track in the country can win the race if allowed in the race.
My Post title is Class racing not Bracket racing..Thanks for reading...

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Roberte, Thanks for reading but try it again. If you truly run Class to win Class you will understand the post better. I have raced Stk and SS for 35 years and tried three cars in one class and was continually trumped by the latest and greatest discovery found new in the tech book. Some call that evolution or progress. When its purely related to bad factoring it is disappointing and costly. I am not whining, just commenting on why class racing has deteriorated to More and More expense and less satisfaction unless you have the latest trick car in the class.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Dick, I have raced in Stock, Super Stock, and Comp. since 1973. In 1992,
after winning the Comp. Division Championship in 1991, I retired as my kids were getting to the age where it just wasn't working. Last year I bought a Stocker, and I'm having the time of my life again!! Ken has given us this wonderful forum to talk, learn, and hopefully promote the sport. I
think you need to start a Heads- Up Forum, somewhere else. J.R.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Dick, I'm sorry to have to disagree with you again but it sure sounds to me like you're whining. You've tried 3 cars in one class and was continually trumped? Either you're a poor judge of combos or you need a new engine builder. i don't understand what your deep rooted hatred of "bracket racing" comes from. Correct me if I'm wrong but even in the "heads-up" old days wasn't there a 1/10 under the record break out?
I also don't see how Class Racing is deteriorating. It seems to me that, taken as a whole, Stock and SS seem to have the best car counts race after race. And as far as your more expense/ less satisfaction crack, speaking for myself, the worse the combo that I build, the more satisfaction I'm able to get out of competing with it.
Maybe you should try a "Dime Rocket". It can't hurt.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Dick - what you are saying is that you don't want change and want to stay in the past .Should we not allow cars built after 1969 to race in Stock? Sounds to me like you should build a nostalgia S/S car .But wait....even that is based on a bracket format .Not many people know that I really like old cars - but you must realize time marches on and nothing stays the same .

Your thirty - five years didn't teach you that newer ideas come along and you have to go with the flow or stay on the porch ............

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Dick, always enjoy reading your post but the things that upset you about the class as you state is the same path you took. I can remember running Melissa in your new sunfire and I was driving my old 67 camaro SS/HA and she out MPH me on the big end with a 305. You were spending a lot of cash and had the best of everything with all the latest technology and in my opinion an under factored combo. When the new GT cars came out you and others chose to take the new direction that started this very same path that we have today. I had your same feelings about the sport. Instead of giving up I adapted and got a GT car. When you were racing the money you spent to have the best of everything and be at the top of the qualifying sheet was seen by all. I never herd you mentioned create motors or even how to get the class closer on the indexes or combine classes, why would you when your cars had the performance advantage. You say your speaking about class racing and not bracket racing and then you say you would like to have create motors, I remember your super stock operation and what you say today from your actions back then just boggles the mind.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Guys, please, please CAN WE FRIGGIN STOP BASHING OUR OWN DAMM CLASSES? At least online where NHRA clearly reads it??? The more they read this complaining garbage nonsense about how its dying, about how everything sucks, about how NHRA sucks, the more likely they are to walk away from it. Jeez, guys this is getting old. For crying out loud, you guys are trying to seal your own damm fate.

For all the horror stories online about NHRA, I cant even come up with one single moment where I was not treated fairly and with respect by NHRA,

Most races are hitting quota, we have a younger group of S/SS racers than we've had in years. What exactly is wrong? What? That you can't run off the national record as an index and win every single weekend with .100+ lights??

STOP SAYING OUR CLASSES ARE DYING. Just get over the fact that it wont EVER be the same as it was in 1979. If you'd like to jump in the water,come on in, its quite nice. If not, SHUT THE HECK UP and let the rest of us enjoy the ride, which is a heck of alot of fun right now.

Kevin Panzino 1202

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

There are so many places and categories for all of us to race at/in and all I read lately is everything is dying.

I don't buy in to that crap.

Still have fun every time I go to the track regardless.

I consider us lucky to have what we have and don't see it going anywhere. Changing with the times, yes, but I don't think it's dying.

My 2 cents.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Dick, what one class and what were the three car/engine combos?

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

From the responses I can tell the Bracket portion of the NHRA program is where you all enjoy. I also enjoyed that when it was all that was available but the Class, Heads up portion of National events are special. I give you all credit for your hard work and persistence and responses. Thank you.
Herbie, Melissas 305 car was FA where your car due to its factor and wt was HA. That probably explains how she could out MPH you. The car for FA was the 400 Pontiac or the Injected 305.
I agree having a racing business and working on all our cars was a lot of work and expensive but enjoyable..

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Dick. I really admire you effort and passion on this
subject. You very much speak your mind and I feel
you are often out numbered and beat up on this forum.
I think it is very simple though. Often said, often true.
Follow then money. When the contigency money dried up
so did the entries and passion. Seems that simple to me.
Entry fees, fuel, sacrifice of income, time away from loved ones,all the other expenses. To many these are all
big things. There was a time when it could be worth while
to go class racing. Sadly no more. A trophy just is not enough......

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

One of the hard parts of this thread is most think that the dial in eliminator is what I am talking about when I say Class Racing. That is NOT true. We can all protect the eliminator Points meet format but it is NOT class Racing. Class is heads up two at a time drag racing. Initially with limited combinations it was fairly close competition. Then with time and poorly factored combinations it became harder for the tech which placed motors and bodies in the rule book at the same "factoring" as last years cars.
I think that new cars are a benefit. I admire those who research the books and find a combination overlooked by factoring but when many cars are no longer present to run classes because the owners moved on to weaker factors or quit due to expense to rebuild -----------(fill in your reasons). That's what I refer to as class racing which slowly dies. The expansion of class choices including FWD, SS/ABC mod cars etc is great for the inclusion of more paying customers but dilutes the heads up component even at Class events.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Im getting soooo tired of hearing this new Mod production with spec brodix head crap!!! GO MAKE THIS CLASS HAPPEN SOMEWHERE OR GO AWAY!!! Nobody wants to run this dumb class! Either go run GM Stock in NMCA or Coyote Stock in NMRA or NHRA or IHRA Class race or be a real heads up man and run Pro Stock and be happy!

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Just got back from the Layer/Doane Memorial race.... You would have loved it Dick... It was a Stock/Superstock Combo...(Put on by Rodger Keeling) .. But the final came down to 2 GT/DA Superstockers... A normal bracket race was going on at the track in conjunction with the SS race . You should have seen all the folks walking over to the stands and fence to see a heads up final ...The announcer made a big deal how this was like the good old days...Run what u brung... Your right on one thing... The heads up portion of this class is ....special. In our opinion, its the only reason we are in the class in the first place. Otherwise, we would still be purely bracket racing...
BTW.. Richard Doanes old car , with Rick Brown at the controls, won...

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

No discussion here of a new mod class. Only discussion of class racing issues. Thanks for reading. I hear the Coyote class is popular and growing. That must mean something.

By the way, isn't your car a Mod car type?

GO RICK BROWN, A suitable winner for the event.......

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

I cannot go along with you Dick about Class racing dying slowly. The LODRS races this year at Indy and Maple Grove saw class racers turn out in huge numbers. Maybe it was because there was no forecast of bad weather but the racers showed up to race.

Indy had 128 Stockers with 88 in S/S while Maple Grove had 112 Stockers and 87 in S/S. That tells me (and NHRA) that the numbers in Stock and S/S are still strong. One factor could be that NHRA decided to place the newer factory racecars in their own classes relieving the burden on older cars in the upper classes.

NHRA knew that putting the newer factory racecars in their own classes would result in LESS heads up runs but they did it anyway and the numbers at Indy and Maple Grove proved them right. I doubt that anyone stayed home because their was a chance of fewer heads up runs which of course meant there would be more dial-in "bracket racing."

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Thanks Travis for the report. I appreciate your comments and always your friendship and fairness to all the racers.
My disagreement with your thoughts is exactly your comment on moving the New cars "so there would be fewer Heads up runs" ( at points meets and eliminator)
Then Class at Nationals divides the available cars into smaller and smaller classes but intra class factoring still affects your chances to be a Class Winner. As the goal of winning class decreases so does the sponsor excitement and cash. (Hard for a sponsor to afford $50 to 100 plus class winners)

Do we include eliminator at points meets and Nationals in the definition of Class Racing? I might be simplifying it but I thought we only call multiple same classified cars racing at a National event Class Racing. The rest of the dial in programs are Eliminator to me.

I know I am not racing at this time but I am still very interested in the success of Sportsman racing. I have a strong interest in helping getting new racing interest as well. I also contribute to cash prizes at various Class meets.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Like it or not all forms of Sportsman classes have some sort of bracket RACING involved.
Started back class racng this year after taking a few years off to run.90 and chase Big Buck Bracket Races. Most fun I've had in quite some time. I looked at schedules before coming back and between NHRA, IHRA, CCRA,and the Redline series I have 29 races within a 5 hour drive and I'm sure there are some I missed. With that much Class RACING it doesn't sound like its dying to me.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

dick can't handle the truth? 😜

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Like!!! Congrats Rick Brown on the win! Especially cool that it's in Richard Doane's old car.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

They got throwed out

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Dick, I cannot see anyone else wanting to change the definition of Class racing to only include cars running in heads up eliminations for the class trophy. Everyone racing in Stock and/or S/S is part of Class racing whether the event they attend has class runoffs or is an all run event with a dial-in. Those are cars that fall into different classes and must meet certain class requirements and specifications. If anyone wants to call that bracket racing, then so be it. But it is bracket racing with the correct engine, carb or throttle body, and many other items that have to meet specific rules. In order for everyone to compete there must be a handicap system that allows the lower classed cars to play against the higher classed cars.

As far as heads up racing goes, I've been teching long enough to remember a time when a certain heads up eliminator was started that had many cars competing. Over the years a lot of good hard working participants fell to the wayside because in order to stay competitive in a heads up format, it took deeper and deeper pockets. Today that heads up eliminator is barely surviving, sometimes with less than 16 cars in the field. But for some unknown reason Stock and S/S have to have a maximum quota put on them at the same event.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

as far as I'm concerned the car counts in both SS & Stock are up this year due to the new classes made for the new cars and seeing the addition of a lot of old bodied cars coming back out in competition.
So I totally disagree on it dying, as for the heads up stuff, we tried it in NSCA, didn't work, Dick tried it, didn't work, this is working very well and even the independent SS/Stock series are working at this time.
As for racing shoe polish, versus racing like comp eliminator, we all see the car counts over there, very scary.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Dick, for pete's sake, lay off the doom and gloom. Even though we (Kevin and I) are sitting it out for a while, we can see that it's getting better, not worse. We are working on returning. The new cars are in their own classes where they belong, and the car counts are up, despite the weak economy.

Could some things in Stock and Super Stock be better, and be done better? Sure. But they're not dying classes and they don't need to be reinvented or radically altered to survive. Anyone claiming that is doing more harm than they'll ever do good. People wanting to throw the baby out with the bath water are a hazard to the sport.

Yes, NHRA could do a lot to encourage, and reward, performance. Yes, more emphasis could be placed on performance. But there also must be a balance that has to be maintained.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Guys, Thanks for all the comments. Sounds like everyone is pleased with the racing in eliminator and class as it stands. I loved to attend the points meets and race dial in too. I just liked Class better as a personal challenge to get the most out of my car I could on that day against similar cars and drivers.
Thanks again.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

I don't think Dick wants to change any class. He was testing the waters to see if there'd be interest in a heads up limited class. No class has ever been tried like he is trying to explain. Circle track racers have done it successfully, so it may be worth a shot. They'll never know if it would be popular, because it will never be tried. The only thing I have a problem with is the vitriol that some racers seem to have against a non existent class. I could care less how many new eliminator a they come up with if it doesn't effect me.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Dick, I miss the Jr. Stock days of the sixties also and wish it was like that now. However, I realize it ain't never going to happen. The fellow with the Q/SA '55 Chevy obviously relates to that time also, but has adapted his program to the 2015 secne and I'm sure he's having a ball participating now.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Confused is Dick a Classracer? If you are racing for $$$$. Sorry really.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Dick, if you like the class/heads up format you still can do that. There is/was guys in Div. 1 who come out, run class or record runs and then go home, or stick around for eliminations. A bit pricey for the return but doable.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

FYI NSS is run on a index system, there are no dial downs as in Stock racing.

JimR

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

(Who are these races that came back racing because of the new cars in new classes Nitro? That is the biggest line of crap. Car counts were up at Indy because there was no snow/rain for the first time in 20 years.

1 Economy is a little better so people have a few more bucks and can afford to race a little more.
2 Gas is under $3 so people can afford to travel a little more.

These are the big factors of people showing up to race not New cars in new classes.

Just think how many people would go back racing if gas was $1.50 and PTS payed out more then $150- $200 for a Semi final finish(4-5 round wins). Jimmy Ronzello won $350 for a 4 round combo yesterday at the milan SS/Stk combo. $75 to enter, one day. If he would have won 4 rounds at Indy pts he would have got $120 with a $160 entry three days away from home and two hotel nights. The problem with class racing is real clear to me.

Here is a fun fact
In 1994 at a PTS race it payed out $1000 to win and $500 to runner up in STK and $100 to enter and around $1.25 for gas.
In 2015 a PTS race payed out $1000 to win and $500 to runner up in STK $160 to enter and around $2.75 for gas.
Are we seeing the problem yet?

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Hey Chuck, we might have a solution for both the payouts issue as well as Dick's concern about heads-up Class Racing... Loose Rocker's 2nd Annual Auto Meter Northern Class Nationals has something for EVERYONE! Heads-Up Class Racing for the go-fast guys, Quick 32 CIC for the really go-fast guys, a $3K combo race for the 'bracket' guys, and separate $5K's in Stock and Super Stock for the traditional 'eliminator' guys. Oh, and a $2K Nostalgia Super Stock race for the 'experienced' guys. ;)

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...t=54693&page=9

http://smileyjungle.com/smilies/signsandflags42.gif

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

^^^ This

Class Run-offs for all classes. :)

No combo run-offs.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Bingo !! Mike Beard glad you put your class national event on ..You area good race promoter but your not a NoN Profit organization either..You put this race on to Make $ correct?

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Absolutely! No money, no race. If we made as much as that "Not for Profit" organization, I wouldn't tow a slow car with a pickup and open trailer, and the payouts would be even higher! The big money bracket races we promote have steadily increased in car counts over the years, and they have been getting purse increases. Bring all your Div. 1 buddies with you this year, and maybe we can do even better for the racers in 2016.

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

It don't get much plainer that that now does it Pineapple Head!

Re: Why Class racing dies slowly
 

Jack, what 35 years taught me is that every year there is a new crop of weak factors to contend with in class if you like to win heads up class. It takes quite a few people complaining before new injected classes were established, New car classes, This issue affects ALL racers in Stk and SS. Building a new weaker factored car is expensive if that's the definition of going with the flow. In regard to "nothing staying the same, I do agree. The uneven factoring just continues get worse to affect who CAN win a class. I give you credit for building a new class car and wish you the best. Hope the cars become closely factored to increase the fun.
Dial in can be won by even the heaviest factored old cars if they qualify. As long as Class is LB per "factored HP" mainly the factoring affects who can win the most in classes.