SS Modified
 

What makes a SS car to fit in the modified class ?

Re: SS Modified
 

Modified motor! :D
SS is HP to weight, SS Mod is cu in to weight.
I'm running a "hand me down" comp motor. Trying like hell to get it on the track.

Re: SS Modified
 

Would a 300" Small Block Chevy with the Dart Buick Heads fit into any Super Stock Class? This is an old comp motor.

Re: SS Modified
 

Yes, it would fit in any GM application depending on the number of carbs.

Re: SS Modified
 

Also the Heads castings maybe an issue. Good Luck

Re: SS Modified
 

I think it would, but contact the D1 tech director, Ryck Campbell to be sure.

Re: SS Modified
 

SS/ Modified, C/M thru F/M, all heads must be NHRA accepted, 2 valves per cyl. OEM casting with OEM # cast in head.

NHRA rulebook, sec11F page 23. :)

Re: SS Modified
 

The Buick Dart head is an accepted cylinder head.
The head was manufactured by Dart for GM with a GM part number.

It is still a great cylinder head for small CID engines like yours.

You can run in SS/BS, with one carburetor, or, SS/CM thru SS/FM with two carburetors.

Re: SS Modified
 

Thank you guys. What would I have to weigh with that 300" motor and an automatic in SS/EM and SS/FM?

Not sure how the percentage for the automatic works when it says 11.50-12.49 ect.. Do you go off of 11.50?

Re: SS Modified
 

Based on 300 CID:

SS/EMA: 3277.5 lbs
SS/FMA: 3562.5 lbs

Re: SS Modified
 

May be a good idea to do some calculations to make sure your combo would go far enough under the SS/EM 10.00 06.50 index before undertaking the project. Are the Dart/Buick heads up to the task structurally?

Re: SS Modified
 

With a 286 dart Buick we've ran 5.85 1/8th at 120, and low 9's at 148 in the quarter in SS/DM, so yes, they can run under. Not near as quick as the new 10 degree Chevy stuff, but still respectable. We pulled 719 hp on the dyno. All with just a single disc McCleod soft loc.

Re: SS Modified
 

on a pounds per cu inch with the Buick heads you are giving an equally classed car with Chevy heads a big HP advantage--just saying--- however the Buicks always seemed to work better at higher temp and higher altitude tracks---FED 387

Re: SS Modified
 

Don't discourage the guy. If he's got a small inch motor, he should do okay with the Buick stuff. Harper used to be the man with those head and I know that Nickens did a bunch of small inch comp motors using them. I know that those heads are dinosaurs by today's standards, but depending on the class he may never have to deal with a heads up race.

What kills me is that you can pick up a used SB2 or wedge comp motor with all the best parts that makes killer power for about 25 grand. Now that's discouraging.

Re: SS Modified
 

not trying to discourage anybody just making a statement of facts---also unless I misread the rule book SS/EM is 11.5 lb p/ci so 300 is 3450 pounds min & SS/FM is 12.5 lb p/ci 3750 pounds min--- for safety sake claim 301/302 inches because of scale differences so ya gotta put another 10 pounds in the car won't make much difference in ET but you won't come up light at the scales--- FED 387

Re: SS Modified
 

Minus 5% for automatic. With a 300 inch engine, it's 3278 lbs for EM and 3563 lbs for FM.

Re: SS Modified
 

I don't think the SB2 is legal in some modified classes. A great set of GM 15 degree heads still are reasonably priced, and a bit more competitive then the dart Buick. Can they run? Sure, but don't count on winning class at Indy with them. I love them for their valve train stability, and I wasn't trying to set the world on fire. But if you want to have fun, and just enjoy a cheaper modified engine, then go for it, but put it in D mod. You can't overcome that much weight.

Re: SS Modified
 

Please cite the 5 percent rule location I obviously overlooked it. Thanx Fed 387

Re: SS Modified
 

For whatever reason they have it under weight in the frame section. Easily missed.

Re: SS Modified
 

Got it thank you thought that rule only applied to SS/ modified stock cars not modified production cars--- run a balls out old comp motor and have some fun---- FED 387

Re: SS Modified
 

I enjoy running modified and modified stock, you can run .300-.500 under most modified indexes with a good engine, .600 and more under and the cost factor grows exponentially. Modified cars are extremely consistent, IMO.

Re: SS Modified
 

And never tear down.

Re: SS Modified
 

P&g. That's it

Re: SS Modified
 

While we ran 3 SS cars at one time we were pretty well assured we had a "date" with the tear down barn where ever we raced. Part of the game but at this point I think a nice SS/CS car would be a major advantage....

Re: SS Modified
 

If they have any doubts about some mods on say SS/CS, like making sure there are no external mods in the port area, or any valves have been moved, then they will tear you basically apart. At least the top end.

Re: SS Modified
 

Wish SS/CS allowed the BRODIX heads. Then it could be the cheap Mod car class and it would be a start....

Re: SS Modified
 

This. But that's too simple.

Re: SS Modified
 

SS/CS is really a great class, we enjoyed running it for nearly 10 years. The challenge (like any hard run SS and GT motor) is keeping the iron heads alive. There are now 2 Dart head castings that are approved for SS/CS, which I believe have quite a bit more material in the combustion chamber and clamping surfaces in comparison to the Bowtie Vortec stuff we ran. It was really a great ET and speed to run, and no tear downs is always nice. Although Indy appears to be one of the only races these days that actually tear anyone apart anymore.

Mike Mans

Re: SS Modified
 

Mike, What if NHRA made untouched Brodix Spec heads only head to run in CS?

This would be closest to lower cost entry class for SS.

Re: SS Modified
 

I don't think that SS/CS would be considered either entry level or low cost.

To be in the game, the heads would need to be ported (CNC) and probably welded. You'd need a good short deck block, a custom stroke crank (probably billet), good rods (Carrillo for steel or GRP for aluminum), Jesel valve train, titanium valves, top-shelf springs, retainers, locks, lifters and pushrods, etc, etc.

Any small engine like that wants to see a lot of RPM. The parts need to be light but strong and reliable. You also need a good trans and converter program.

I looked into doing an SS/CS engine, but chose SS/BS instead based largely on availability of good used heads and valve train parts. Head porters typically prefer grinding aluminum over cast iron, and they definitely prefer to weld on aluminum.

With the comp guys selling good parts for a fraction of their original cost, it just makes more sense financially to go with a modified class that allows them (even the V6 stuff). Even with the used stuff, you're still looking at 25K to 35K to get a good engine together.

I think SS/CS is real challenge to go fast. Challenge almost always equals a lot of time and money.

Just my .02

Re: SS Modified
 

I guess I really don't see the reason to change the current ruling on it. If you made the rule that it had to be an Untouched spec head, now you're back to requiring tear downs to illustrate that the head has not been altered. This idea doesn't even fit in the realm of Super Stock as all heads can at least be ported and polished. Besides the fact that I'm assuming you mean a Brodix Aluminum head, which would create a distinct disadvantage to all of the competitors that have already made the investment in a SS/CS specific combination. Seems like a fairly one-sided view to leave everyone else's investment out to dry.

Just a few years ago (2011) there were 3 of us SS/CS guys that finished in the Top 10 nationally and 2 of those folks are still actively competitive with these combos. In my opinion this is a fairly well populated class that already has arguably one of the lowest cost of entry of all the modified categories. I just saw that Tim Sloan completed a new SS/CS combination with a cast intake manifold and right out of the box was on par to run -.70 or so!

Overall it's a great class that anyone looking for a way to run modified without spending big bucks on Comp type motors can compete. The rules are slightly unique to CS alone, but I think the classes popularity and competitiveness already show that it's healthy and should be left as-is for the time being.

Just my thoughts.

Mike

Re: SS Modified
 

I actually agree with you on this point, because of the money invested in the parts and work it takes to run that class. My opinion is it wouldn't hurt to add a class to the modified stock class that does specify a head, but I really don't have a lot of say in this, as I quit running SS/CS a few years back. We weren't the hitters you, Bogner, and Perino were, and are, but we did run some high 60's, low 70's in the quarter at a best of 142,86. And I heartily agree that changing cylinder heads in midstream sucks. But that being said, I started in 86, I believe with Linden Bognard's 67 Camaro with 461X heads, updated to the tune of $4,000 to the now legal 292's, then spent $8,000 at John Haskels for each set of bow tie phase 1 and 2, then was outdated again by the bow tie vortec. It got rather expensive. And I think you guys who do this should be commended for your performance levels, I just know more people would jump in under different circumstances, and a class that does not step on anyone's toes.

Re: SS Modified
 

We can completely understand where you are coming from on the cost to try and be fast. Obviously we put forth a very aggressive effort to be fast, and no matter what class or category you compete in - it costs time and money to try and be at the top of any of them. But, that being said you guys (Randy Wilson) had a good car and combo to go out and run -.60-70 and be competitive on race day!

I don't really have a preference on whether a NEW class should be added or not with a spec type head. It doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but at the end of the day it doesn't hurt anyone either. We are both on the same page that it doesn't seem right to make a big rule shift to a class that already has a good number of competitors - and many of them are putting a lot of time and money into their combinations.

At the end of the day, Super Stock is not a budget class if you have intentions of being fast. Plain and simple. Traditional Super Stock, GT and Modified all have areas that big money will be spent in an effort to be the leader. But I bet you can count on one hand the number of times the #1 qualifiers won races this year. Proving once again you don't have to be fast to do what we all come out for every week.

Mike

Re: SS Modified
 

Thank you Mike. We also ran those numbers with a clutch assisted 4 speed, as in we actually clutched every gear. Really. And a McCleod soft loc single disc total loc up from start to finish. We weren't real bright in the clutc department. We also ran 6.16 1.8th in 3,300 foot air with a phase 1 iron bow tie's. It was, and is a fun class. We runner upped to Randall Beningfield at the Holley nationals, and got beat by .02. We were proud of that.

Re: SS Modified
 

Also with a cast bow tie intake manifold. Never had a sheet metal manifold with our SS/CS stuff.

Re: SS Modified
 

I believe there is still a GM SS/CS engine combination that has not been tried.
I am talking of the 1999-2004 LQ4 LS Chevy engine.

It has a cast iron block that will sustain 1500+ HP and cast iron heads with lots of material for porting.

The cylinder heads are of a 15 degree design with an intake port volume of 210cc and the exhaust port volume of 75cc as cast. They have lots of material for big valves. The 71 cc chamber has meat for machining it down.

Was told by NHRA since they are OEM cylinder heads, they are legal for the class.

Re: SS Modified
 

That done properly would have to be a killer deal. Is the LS motors a wedge?

Re: SS Modified
 

If I was starting from scratch and looking to get into SS/CS - I would seriously look into that combination. The LS platform is still a wedge head with a much more favorable valve angle, and is laid out in a configuration like a Ford head where the runners for each cylinder are the same layout.

It would be a shame to put a carburetor on an LS platform to run modified! Maybe someday we will be able to run fuel injection in modified...

Mike

Re: SS Modified
 

I help Ashton Hudson at the track when I can with his SS/CS car. I can tell you there is nothing cheap about it. In fact he is doing a new engine now and he told me over 30,000 total carb to pan.

Re: SS Modified
 

And if it's real competitive, that's cheap. If you were to break it down piece by piece, a killer combo comes to a bit more then that. We spent, as I stated $8,000 a pair for bow tie heads with no springs, retainers, or rockers. Add anew sheet metal intake for $1,800, a short deck bow tie block with all the bells, and whistles, around $8,000, diamond Pistons done right, $2,000, crank, $3,500, steel rods, $4,000, (and that's being generous) rings, $1,400, cam, $800, lifters, $1,000, oil pan, $1,000, external pump, $800, star vac system, $1,400, valve covers, $200, push rods, $400,springs, and retainers, $900, machine work, assembly, and dyno, $7,000, and Jessel rockers for $1,500, carburetor, $2,000, spacer, $150, not cheap but very challenging. That's well over $40,000.