Changes 2016
 

If you have any ideas about changes you might propose, now is the time to email NHRA as the various committees meet in Pomona. Your Division Director, Tech Director--Divisional or CA or IN- or just look at the pecking order in National Dragster. Remember, you will not effect much change fussing at each other in the pits or on this channel. My personal peeve 3 times removed and modified to fit the screen is in Super Stock. A 26% increase in classes to 109 classes for about 12% of the cars. Sounds like Comp with it's 'diversity'. That didn't become a best seller either.
My second is Making a stand alone place for the Shootout cars, get us out, let Indy stand on it's own, and sell us to the crowd. Hell somebody might like us. Run us when there are actually people in the stands. OK, send that stuff to all the officials. I don't even know who is on the competition committee or the stock/super stock committee. Anybody know? That is where stuff stops that we ask for most of the time. Other than Graham Light, I think Glen Gray has the most ears when he communicates. If you don't participate in this process and just complain in the pits, then I'm sorry to invoke the Chuck Rayburn rule: You got no vote.

Re: Changes 2016
 

I sent Bruce an E-Mail a few days ago concerning Stock . EFI vs Carbs


Put your key boards to work!! Now is the time.

Re: Changes 2016
 

EFI vs carbs? Ask Bobby Warren what happened when he had his LT1 on the dyno, and bolted a Quadrajet on it.

Re: Changes 2016
 

I have already e-mailed both Bruce Bacheldor and Dave Mohn regarding the arbitrary safety rules thrust upon the "Factory" cars. Bruce never responded. Dave said he would look into it, after I approached the argument from one of NHRA's highest priorities: "CYA".

What will the insurance company say if there is a SS/JA or GT/HA in an accident that is deemed "safe" by NHRA running 10.00 with a roll bar, -1 jacket/pants, no Competition License, etc., when at the same time they will have 10.50 & slower cars that are required to have a full roll cage, -5 jacket/pants, Competition License, etc. in order to be deemed "safe" by NHRA?

Which is safer, a 3350# car with a 275HP 360 running 10.50's, or a 3350# car with a 275HP 340 running 10.50's? When the safety requirements of a vehicle change based solely upon the decals on the windshield, there's a problem. Safety rules should be based on ET, MPH, and chassis construction, period. If they want to make every car in the country 10.99 & quicker require a full roll cage, -5 suit, Competition License, etc., fine, do that, but the rules should be the same for everyone, not arbitrary based on what year the body or engine is.


Last year, when NHRA created the new Factory classes, they combined sticks & automatics, and utilized the stick index, which resulted in various levels of index hits for automatics. There are a number of Super Stock classes that have sticks & autos combined, in which the autos get a 5% weight break. My question was: if they get a weight break, why don't I? *OR* If I don't, why *do* they? I don't really care which way it is, but I *do* expect consistent application of rules.

The worst thing was that despite numerous back-and-forth e-mails, NHRA absolutely ignored the question entirely -- not only refused to address it with so much as a "no comment" or "because I said so", but refused to acknowledge that the question had even been *asked*! Absolutely staggering.

Re: Changes 2016
 

Michael, as my Dad always sarcastically told me and my brothers, "Don't let common sense and good judgment get in the way of what you want to do."

Re: Changes 2016
 

Last year I wrote several emails to NHRA about the new Super Stock classes combining auto and sticks and giving the automatics a hit on the index. I did get a couple of responses that they were looking into the situation. The best response I got was that they (NHRA) did not understand why I wasn't a fan of the new classes and indexes! Let's see, you took 2/10's off my index and I keep the same weight.... Yeah I could see were I should be happy about that.


Dennis Breeden

Re: Changes 2016
 

Don't preach here. Send it to NHRA. Make lots of paper. On the new class issue, we were completely ignored and no one even looked at the results. I wrote a letter about 30 days ago about this and through Reading there was 12% participation in 26% (the new classes). Those numbers don't lie. Needs to go away. Based on a quick calculation from Nitro's latest, there were 105 new cars/engines in the 945 cars that ran in SS. Now go send all that to the NHRA people. Someone find out who is on the S/SS committee and who is on the Competition Committee.

Re: Changes 2016
 

Who do we email?

Re: Changes 2016
 

I just sent an email asking the committee members names. I would start with Glen Gray and Josh Peterson and Tech@nhra. Almost all emails are the first initial and the last name@nhra.com. Keep it simple, to the point, and remember nobody likes to be called names unless they are complimentary names. Almost all our stuff deals with tech, so the Tech Directors in each division is good. Their email is in the Dragster.

Re: Changes 2016
 

Mike, the rating comes from past performance of that combo. When that "275 rated" 360 goes 8.90's in SS/IA trim, I guess they just figured that adding 200-300 more lbs, it should be capable of running under 10.00. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that SS/IA and GT/FA didn't even need a license, until someone went faster than 10.00 at that weight break. Now, since a GT/HA car went under 10.00 at Indy, that class should need a license and full cage also.

I understand your argument, but based on performance of your combo in SS and or SS/GT, not surprised at all. And, lets be honest, the old indexes that these new factory combos fell under were kinda soft.

Re: Changes 2016
 

GT/HA rules have not been changed for 2106. Rules are being fabricated arbitrarily.

Would you like to explain why a DragPak Challenger body powered by a 318 running in FGT/J running 10.60's has to have a full roll cage, -5 suit, Competition License, etc?

Absolutely. Well, really the problem isn't with indexes so much as the artificially soft HP factors. That is irrelevant to any issue I have brought up, which centers on equal application of the rules.


Helmet rules are based on ET. 10.00 & slower: open faced, 9.99 & quicker: full face. There is zero logical reason why all safety rules are not predicated on ET, MPH, and chassis construction.

Class designation decals do not provide any level of protection. It does not matter if the same car, with the same chassis, running the same ET & MPH, is bracket racing, running GT/HA, or running FGT/H, the car is either safe under certain safety specs, or it is not.

If nothing else, you would think that the insurance liability loophole created by arbitrary, inconsistent rules would concern them.

Re: Changes 2016
 

What was I thinking???

Re: Changes 2016
 

What he said X 10!! Have seen drivers using open face helmets only because their cars don't go below 9.99......the rule is for all!!
my three cents!

Re: Changes 2016
 

^^^^^^ Makes sense.

Re: Changes 2016
 

Well said Mr Cour.

Re: Changes 2016
 

Yes, parachutes on those SS/PA cars. Because they are simply unsafe without it.

Re: Changes 2016
 

Personally I think the 10.00 rule for the helmets is OK. My car is right on the cusp of that performance. I wear my open helmet above 10.0 and a full helmet when my car is running faster than that. I do not like the restricted vision of the full helmet and it makes my glasses fog up and that in itself is a safety hazard.Its a rare occasion that two cars collide in our type of racing. I would agree with the fire resistant clothing to be all the same as well as the cage. There are some stockers running with out any sort of roll bar or safety harness and just using the factory seat belts. I would think this would be a higher priority.

Re: Changes 2016
 

Michael
One reason NHRA does the safety requirements by class is that in tech, how does a tech man know how fast a car will go? Ask the Racer? Ha. One SS/I goes 10.90 while another can go 9.90. If the tech man asks both racers, who knows what the answer will be. Happens all the time in brackets. Someone comes thru tech and when asked he says 10.50 because he has no cage or -5 suit and the car runs 9.50 or faster. Car will likely make it all the way thru time trials and not be caught. Only when an ET is on the window can someone maybe see the car is not running the required equipment.
Most S and SS classes have a range of 1+ seconds from slowest to fastest. If 9.99 falls in that range, I think NHRA finds it easier and safer to require the car to have the equipment for the faster of the range for the above reason.
Arbitrary? Maybe. But maybe there is a reason.

Re: Changes 2016
 

That's a good and logical point that has been brought up before. But to put things into perspective, the disparity is even greater in Stock, especially since the factory race cars were introduced. Some are in the high 8's and have the opportunity to race against Stockers in the mid-teens.


Full cages, full face helmets and SFI 5 suits would be prudent in slow stockers because of this, but it isn't beneficial to the health of our sport. No easy solutions or suggestions that I can see, at least not without more controversy.

Re: Changes 2016
 

You might want to also send info to Dave Lay. I've been told Bruce is not as involved, age has caught up with him and he wants time to be retired.

Re: Changes 2016
 

I don't like the 5 suits. Just too hot for a fat guy. I am a fat guy. I am the Professor Emeritus of fat guys. That is why I put small motors in my car(s). And then the full face helmet; remember a fat guy has a fat face. Then gloves, then a neck brace around a fat neck. My 2 cents.

Re: Changes 2016
 

As with a lot of changes, there are going to be a few unintended effects of the comp license requirement for "slow" FSS cars.

The no license SS/JA and GT/HA and slower allows a lot of older drivers to compete who may not be able to get a pass on the Comp Physical, also allows the younger drivers to get their feet wet in the 10 second and up SS classes.

This will not be the case with the FSS and FGT cars.......I guess I should send a email, but rules as currently revised may have a chilling effect on participation at least in SS.

Eric

Re: Changes 2016
 

That's exactly how it works. Racers must certify that their car and credentials meet the necessary requirements. Read the paragraph on the tech card where you sign your name.

Then the driver is subject to disqualification and/or suspension.


I don't know why it is in the slightest way controversial to suggest that rules should have the same standards for everyone, at any event.

Re: Changes 2016
 

Two strikes.....

Re: Changes 2016
 

LMAO ..So maybe you should have to present your stock portfolio or a bank letter of credit at tech?
No thanks, buddy. I'll take my chances

Re: Changes 2016
 

[QUOTE=Michael Beard;487585]GT/HA rules have not been changed for 2106. Rules are being fabricated arbitrarily.



I said they should, not that they have changed.

I'm agreeing with you on some things. At the Dutch, I was told, running SS/JA, that I had to wear my neck collar because I was running faster than 10.00, that it was not a class specific rule, but an ET specific rule. I totally agree with you that there are too many inconsistencies with these safety rules. However, like I say at work, better to be safe than sorry! I would much rather have the security of that roll cage and extra protection of that safety gear, than to not have enough!

Will I be putting a parachute on my car? Not anytime soon, although it would be nice to have if the brakes failed. Maybe if a manufacturer pays contingency I might! lol.

Re: Changes 2016
 

Strike three! I'm OUT!!!

Re: Changes 2016
 

I often run SS/JA and SS?KA and I have a full CM Cage Certified ever two
years. However, I am also Old and Fat..............I can not get a Physical Cert
and almost all my buddies are in the same boat. That would be the end of
Super Stock for all of us. Our wagon in O/SA and P/SA also has a legal
roll bar and current Harness in it. If we had to put a cage and a parachute on the old gal.running 12's we would park it too.

On Friday Nights at the Street legal Program I regularly run my new Z51 Corvette in the 11's at around 120 MPH without anything except long pants!

My Dentist runs his late Model Mustang on street tires 9's at around 135 to 140 with no more than a factory seat belt......I forbid my kids from driving it................................................ ............................................
when I saw how fat it went! The track is full of outlaw cars that are as fast or faster on Street legal nights.........Are those cars safer than my 10 second Super Stock or 12 Second Stocker...

Those cars run on a unpreped track.......I think the effort should be spent
on changing the rules on those rather than my 10 Second Super Stocker
that has raced for 30 years without a problem.

Re: Changes 2016
 

Cour, since you are out, you are appointed to summarize this cause nobody is gonna send it to the committee folks. Either post it on here or send it to me. I got the members and it needs to go in tomorrow at the latest. Most of these meeting take place this weekend. Send it to me and I will take the flak for sending so much stuff. The agenda is pretty open now as I understand it.

Re: Changes 2016
 

Michael,

NHRA, as far as I know, specifically states that drag racing is a dangerous activity with the possibility of serious injury or even death . (Or something like that). Fact of the matter is that there is no such thing as a safe race car or a safe race track. Some are just less dangerous than others. I feel your pain on the class deals. My 290HP SS/JA car (no rocket ship I might add) falls into the category of not needing all the "stuff", as say the same car with a 275HP Drag Pak engine in the FGT/H class it will run. The 383 engine is out of the car with no plans to freshen it up or upgrade any components (like it would help Ha-ha-ha). I've put my money in the 360 combination. So, there you have it.

Over the years I have "collected" several Super Stock cars and will have a stocker next year too. I can run all of them in IHRA with the car and driver safety equipment they have AND without the hassle of a physical and the possibility that I may be taking a medication that NHRA doesn't like. At this point, I'll have to upgrade car or driver equipment in 3 of my cars and go through the physical/license process to run any of them in NHRA. I like the NHRA people and the racers just fine. I won't quit trying to comply with all they demand. But, if they run me off with rules I can't comply with for one reason or another I will simply have to go somewhere else. Or quit.

PS. Thinking about putting mufflers on my FGT/H car. What kind are you running on yours. (Not really. This part was strictly to blow smoke at Mark Tishken)

Re: Changes 2016
 

I'm well aware of that, which is why I put "safe" in quotes every time. I am referring to a vehicle meeting the level of safety requirements prescribed by NHRA.

Again, the idea that I can go *faster* with a lower safety requirement if it had a different type engine in it is ridiculous. And in Jeff Ross's case, if his 318 was in a production street Challenger body instead of a DragPak Challenger body, the requirements magically change.

Is there a reason people are against having consistent, logical rules? :confused:

Re: Changes 2016
 

Can't speak for others but I am not "against having consistent, logical rules".
I was just trying to explain how the ET vs equipment rules were explained to me when I was an NHRA techman. Guess I didn't do a very good job.
I agree they seem illogical but I think it is the easiest way for NHRA to enforce them.
Tech man or starting line/staging people look at the class on the window and know what equipment is needed.
As for the diff in the new classes vs traditional classes and the 318 example you used, I agree, it is illogical as we look at it. My GUESS is that when NHRA came up with the new classes someone took a stab at how fast the fastest car would be in the class and decided if it fell over or under 9.99. Can it be changed, yes. Will it be, ha.
There are other examples in SS of the equipment rules. If someone had an older SS/AA car (there is or was one in Div.ll) it was lumped into SS/AH when the class was made, no big deal until the fast ones started running quicker than 8.50. NHRA came out and said all SS/AH car have to certify to 8.49 which means funny car cage and other changes. If you are running 9.20 you still need to conform. Logical? No but easy to enforce.
Again Michael, I agree with you.

Re: Changes 2016
 

Michael, What is the different between street Challenger and the Dragpak body in SS? Hood? Tom

Re: Changes 2016
 

For 2009/10 dragpaks had the prone to crack liftoff carbon fiber hood, a half inch less wheelbase, lexan or something like it door windows, massaged trans tunnel section, and a really sweet tag instead of a VIN.

For 2011 I don't know about the wheel base, but its a street RT hood with hinges.

And before anyone continues this line of thought, I was told last year that you can't "create" a street Challenger out of a dragpak, have to have the Vin.

Sort of a throwback to earlier times when the VIN had to match the body style and engine claimed. Before 6 cylinder cars became so common.

Eric

Re: Changes 2016
 

Jeff I sent you a PM.