3sp to 4sp manual
 

I would like to run a stick in an older stocker combination that was offered with an auto or 3sp manual only. We attended a S/SS event in september and several racers told me NHRA now allows an upgrade to a 4sp for the older cars. Is this true? Can you use a hydraulic throw out bearing also?

I have been out of racing for 20 yrs...things sure have changed!!

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Unless it came with hydraulic, it is not allowed. With a performance clutch a mechanical linkage is best for consistant air gap settings.

For the trans, straight out of the rulebook, "OEM or NHRA accepted aftermarket transmissions having same number of forward speeds (O.D. gear not required) as original, and reverse, may be used."

This is where it is a grey area, as cars originally with power glides can now have 3 speed automatics, per the rulebook

For clarification on the trans contact your local tech director, as it is not black and white for a manual trans like it is with the auto in the rulebook.


Sean

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

I see that you are new here. Please allow me to offer a polite, gentle suggestion.

There is a historical vehicle that has been raced in NHRA and IHRA stock eliminator for decades called the “Gray Ghost” . It was, of all things, a Corvair built by Tom Gould.

Tom resides in this forum and is deeply respected for his bravery and intellect for racing a vehicle that most people didn’t have the courage or brains to race.

In deference and respect to Tom, you may want to change your username.

http://static.dragracecentral.com/st...re_12/da17.jpg

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Hey bunkster go back under the rock you came out from under.It's none of your business what name anyone here uses. Mr Gould doesn't have a copyright on the name of his car. The OP said he's been away from racing 20 years ago. He's no nubie.
Go over to Yellow Bullet if you want to rub it in peoples butts. You started it in the deep staging thread now you're doing it here.
Kenny if I'm wrong tell me so.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Be nice ed

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Mickey, it's hard not being nice when trolls come here and try to tell people what they should think and express themselves.
Y'all have a Merry Christmas Mickey.

Ed

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Noo Joysee says "y'all"? And not even SOUTH Noo Joysee!

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Tell it like it is Ed i didnt know you knew what ya'll was

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Dwight,
Isn't a guy from "Noo Joysee" saying "Ya'll" an abomination to all us "Folk" in Arkansas?
This is the proper salutation:
Ya'll "DO" have a Merry Christmas

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Yes you can replace the 3sp manual with a 4sp manual in stock along with SS. So if you have a 265, 6Cyl comet or 6Cyl Nova you can run a 4 speed. Also for PG optioned stockers and SS can run three speed autos. The above mentioned combo's were just examples. Hope this helps.

Robert

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Adger, y'all have a fine day heayah, And a Merry Christmas.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Thanks to Sean and Robert for their reply, very helpful.

I did enjoy the "side show" also. When I bought the car in 1978,,,1964 Dodge Max Wedge...the Grey Ghost was the name of the car on the door. We put the car in A/SA in 1984 and converted it to a stick in 1987 when NHRA allowed the use of aftermarket trans (DNE). At that time it was probably the only Max Wedge stick car in the country since John Wilson (the 4sp set-up was in his SS Hemi car...some of you may remember it). We raced it until 1997 in Div 4/5.

Phil Vos
formally 5069/4910

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Phil, I worked with the guy in Sioux Falls that owned that car and had it lettered with 'Grey Ghost'. He raced the car very sporatically at Thunder Valley and the now defunct Empire Dragway. A bunch of us were talking the other day about some of the old race cars that are still around and the 'Grey Ghost' came up.:) -Al

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Hello Al, been awhile, good to hear from you. I see you are still racing. Yes the car is still around. Actually it is pretty close to Sioux Falls now. I sold it after 37yrs owning it to my brother this spring who lives near Brookings. I kept most of the drive line, except the motor, for the new ride. I bought it from Doug Billet who worked at Duke Tuffty at the time. If I remember right you and Brad Van Lant were also there.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Phil,
You are welcome.

Before you start buying clutches and bellhousings I would suggest a Browell that resembles a QuickTime with a window to access the clutch for adjustments. Advanced Clutches has reduced prices right now, and that is a good investment.

Sean

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Robert, I looked and do not see this in the rule book. Help me out and tell me where it is? I would think the three speed stick to four speed stick would be in alignment with the two speed to three speed auto accommodation.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

when I started on this rambler, it had a 2bbl 232 6cyl in it but the 3speeds were really weak, asked nhra about a 4 speed and they said no.
did something change?

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Yep...Doug Billet was the guy. Good to hear the car is still around. I've been on the trail of a similar one for years and may be getting close. ;) -Al

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Thanks Sean.
I have a 2 piece Lakewood that NHRA accepted when I was running the Dodge. Do they still accept 2 piece bellhousings? Also have aluminum and steel flywheels in various weights and diameters. Is Advanced Clutches 10 1/2" clutch a good piece?

Does anyone know if Bob Sharp is still racing his A/S Camero?

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

What are you saying Al?? Race car or a driver? I have several 426 blocks gathering dust.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

I want to update from the Mopar electronic race ignition to an MSD. What is the difference between the 6AL and the 6AL-2. Both have 2 step and listed output is simular. Both are suppose to work with the Mopar distributor. Anyone have a preference.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Bob has a A/S 427 fairlane

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

As long as the bellhousing is SFI certified. Or can be recertified, then you might be able to use what you have. The bellhousings without windows has to be recertified every 5 years. The ones with a window every 2 years. Lakewood had bellhousings that used I believe 3/8" bolts and those will not recertify. It was a money ploy to make people buy new bellhousings this would have been around 1998 to 2004, so you may need to look into that before spending money on shipping only to find out that the shipping company made money and you have to buy a new bellhousing.

The dual 7" clutch is the wiz bang clutch and the tuning window is really wide. That is what I run, but there is nothing wrong with the 10" clutch that Advanced has. Whatever you do, get a clutch that is setup with low base pressure. Otherwise it's a parts killer, or a compromise to getting launch and high gear dialed in with the clutch tune.

Sean

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Bob had a 427 Fairlane. He sold it and built a '67 Camaro 396-375 now converted to a '68. Did he sell his Fairlane to the west coast boys?

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Bob Sharp sold the first one to Robert Pond. Then the Camaro and now he is back in another 427 Fairlane.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

My goodness, you have my apologies. I didn’t mean to offend you.

Usually, someone with your level of vitriol has a problem with alcohol. Here’s a group that might help you:

http://www.aa.org/

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

You didn't insult me pea brain you were rude to a new poster before you knew anything about him. I do not and never have had an alcohol problem but your posting history does show you have an abundant lack of brain cells.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

James it appears that I owe a appology concerning the 4sp in stock. I really thought that I read it in the updates but I do not see it in the rule book at all. I believe that this would be rather easy to update with NHRA since the auto trans rule is very similar between S and SS, I am refering to the number of forward gears.

Thanks

Robert

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

This not correct then?
Someone from a concerned party needs to ask why not.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Not as per the 2016 rule book. In Stock the trans rules (For use of forward gears) does not match that of SS for the sticks. BUT for Autos in S, as you know, you can run a metric behind a PG combo etc. But, it looks like until someone ask the NHRA with a letter will allow a 4sp to replace a 3sp maual in stock.

Sorry again Mark.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

It's a simple phone call, or email to Danny or Bruce will get the ball rolling. That's why I suggested it be done by Phil, as it directly effects him and his car, he can be specific with the combo that this relates to. It's clear on the auto trans, but not on the stick with the rule.

Sean

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Seems clear enough to me:

TRANSMISSION, Manual
OEM or NHRA-accepted aftermarket transmissions having same
number of forward speeds (O.D. gear not required) as original, and
reverse, may be used. All gear changes must result from direct
action by the driver. Pneumatic, hydraulic, electric, etc. shifters
prohibited. Floor-shift conversion kits permitted. Clutchless
transmissions prohibited. Clutch must be used to change gears in
a conventional manner. See General Regulations 2:12.

It doesn't make sense to me that stick should be treated differently that automatic in this regard, so I wish you all luck in getting it changed.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Hello Phil. The 6AL provides an allowance for the addition of a two step while the 6AL-2 has the two step built in. I use the 6AL with a two step module along with a Mopar distributor. It works fine. I'd opt for the unit with a built in two step though if starting from scratch.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Phil,
I just spoke to Bob Blackwell our D5 tech director, and you will need to submit this for a rule change. Bob did not have to think very long before he answered, so it is a no. It's not a big deal to get the ball rolling to at least get this reviewed. I pointed out the clarification on the auto trans so that is your ringer. Why can an auto car that came with a 2 speed run a 3 speed, but a stick car that came with a 3 speed not be able to use a readily available 4 speed? The sooner you get something submitted the better off you will be.

The first G-Force I bought was from Jim Voth, it was a 5 speed as I am allowed to run one, but Jim could not, so he had removed the gear for 5th to be legal. It was another neutral, I do not remember if he did anything with the shifter as that was not part of the purchase. So you will be stuck with something like that, but worse and some not very ideal gear ratio combinations with a 3 speed.

I hope I did not muddy the water for you.

Sean

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

At one time I think there was an allowance for a car that was offered with overdrive.
Like, the three speed with overdrive option is allowed a 4 speed.
Or was it just talked about?
I think Dwight or someone that still has a memory.might be able to help my memory on that one.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Adger, that was just talked about. That came about because supposedly you could take a BW T-85 three speed with overdrive and with some case modifications install a T-10 separator plate and tail housing with 4-speed guts. I don't know for a fact it was ever done, but some old Ford guys claimed it and argued that it should be legal. It falls into all that stuff about what do you do with a 5-speed od manual and 4-speed od automatic: Is it a 5 speed so you can run a Liberty or Doug Nash or Jerico 5-speed. Is it a 4-speed so you could build a 4-speed automatic?


Wait for the rule book. After all, what passes tech is what is legal, not what the factories built.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Thanks Sean,

I will give Bob a call and find out what I need to do to get this under consideration. I did email him a couple weeks before I posted this thread but have not recieved a reply (email may have ended up in his spam folder).
Car in question is a 62 Plymouth. From everything I have been able to find out Chrysler offered the B-W 3sp in 62 and 63 as their manual trans. I did read they were experimenting with different 4speeds those yrs with poor results. They developed their own 4sp (NP 833) and offered it in 64. I used a DNE in my 64 330 with a 4sp shifter and an additional 5th/rev lever.

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

Update on this thread. I submitted a rule change review request to Bob Blackwell Div 5 Tech. Recieved an email from him the other day in which he said "The committee has voted to look at this for a 2017 Rule change".

Thank you Mr. Blackwell and to all for your support.

Phil

Re: 3sp to 4sp manual
 

How about replacing a Ford SROD in a Fox body with a Jerico or Toploader?