Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

One racer attempted to qualify at Indy with a very fast car and couldn't get on the final sheet. Sure it's a fun class/index to run all out and not worry about a HP hit. But isn't it time to rethink that (new car) index for the AA classes?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

HAHAHA while your at it i want some HP off my combo so i can qualify

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

If you look at the way the other Classes from A/SA to O/SA are, yes.

A/SA 11.00
B/SA 11.25 (.25 slower)
C/SA 11.40 (.15 slower)
D/SA 11.55
E/SA 11.70
F/SA 11.85
G/SA 12.00
and goes in .15 increments all the way down to O/SA 13.15. Then P/SA is 13.45, when they start the one-pound weight breaks.

So, based on the numbers, AA/SA Index should be 10.75-10.85 range, to 'fall in line' with the other Indexes. Currently it's four tenths quicker (10.60) than A/SA. I know several AA racers asked for a tougher index, to be able to race more flat-out, but it bites them at places like Indy.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

I beat this issue to death last year and got chastised for it by it from respected racers from Div 1 to Div 7 and several in between.

Leave it alone they said!

Even when I made this very same point about falling in line with the A index most of the hitters seemed to want an exhibition class- and said hey- if you can't qualify in AA then just run A. I then pointed out that some of these cars get very-very heavy in A as a result, etc, etc, but it didn't matter. The nay sayers all stuck to their guns and so here we are.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, these indexes are wrong for reasons described above, and for maximum spectator appeal there also needs to be a consolidation of sticks and autos in this class. If these changes were ever brought about AA/S would make a far more interesting class within Stock Eliminator. Not to mention it would be every bit as exciting to watch as any of the Factory Shootout Classes and wouldn't have the burden of attempting to make it fair between NA, Blower/SC, and V10 combos.

I'm not trying to antagonize or anger anyone who doesn't agree with me. I have a dog in both fights, am a huge fan of continued success within Stock Eliminator, and will continue to support it no matter which way this issue turns out. But yes, I think if changes were implemented this class could really help the older muscle cars within this eliminator really shine, and this is a great time to re-open this discussion.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Mike Carr
The K/SA index is 12.65
The L/SA index is. 12.70
Do not understand that.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Yes, I forgot K and L were close together. The rest are all .15 apart. I don't know why K and L are so close.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

When those who campaigned for AA/SA and AA/S were asked by NHRA officials (I won't say who) what the index should be, everyone I know who answered agreed on 10.90, which was, at the time, 0.35 and 0.40 quicker than the next lower classes. The idea being to let people go out and turn the cars loose. However, that was a year or two before the indexes were lowered by 0.30 across the board. The AA classes were requested by and for people running traditional big HP cars, such as the Street Hemi, the 427 Fords, and the 427 and 454 Chevrolet engines rated at 425HP or higher. However, the indexes were lower after the new factory race cars were introduced in the regular classes. Well, we got what we asked for, and we've lived with it. Yes, it would be nice to see the index for AA back up around 10.80 or 10.90, but it is what it is.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

I agree with Bruce on this one. Let's look at the facts.

Using Nitro Joe stats, when you look at the quickest runs in all Auto Trans Stock classes you will note that the AA/SA cars have not been able to run as far under the index as all the other classes.

When you look at the NHRA HP ratings of the cars in AA/SA, they range from 381 to 450 HP. That means to jump from A/SA (11.00) to AA/SA (10.60) these cars can remove anywhere from 381/2 = 190.5 lbs. to 450/2 = 225 lbs.. For that weight advantage they have an index that is 0.40 seconds quicker.

Who is willing to give up 0.40 seconds for 200 lbs.?????? Raise your hand !!!!

I think 11.00 - 0.25 = 10.75 would be a lot more reasonable.

Take a look at the cars that have jumped around from A/SA to AA/SA. They have not been able to run as far under the index in AA as they can in A.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Ya know, it's kinda-sorta funny how all the classes from L on down lose a tenth, in the grand scheme of things, and nobody complains!

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

????

L/sa 12.70 -----
m/sa 12.85 -.15
n/sa 13.00 -.15
o/sa 13.15 -.15
p/sa 13.45 -.30
q/sa 13.80 -.35
r/sa 14.05 -.25
t/sa 14.40 -.35
u/sa 14.85 -.45
v/sa 15.50 -.65
w/sa 16.65 -.1.15

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Oh, I forgot R. We take it in the pants for another tenth for R and T then U gets back a tenth. U to V is a 2lb. difference and V gets shorted .05 AND it's 6 cyl. only.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

2 tenths between J and K also. 12.45 to 12.65

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

AA/S and AA/SA my car does not fit anymore, so I don't and should not have a say!

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Larry, I guess that gives me a little say! (laughing) Here's the key :

Who is willing to give up 0.40 seconds for 200 lbs.?????? Raise your hand !!!!

10.60 index is tuff if you race a lot... I made a lot of runs last year, in a lot of different weather conditions. If you only run Gainesville, Englishtown, Atco, Reading, Sonoma, Pomona, and other mineshaft venues, it's nice to run your car all out and not have to worry about an HP hit. However, if you wanna travel a little and race a lot, it's a tuff index. You're gonna have trouble at places like Indy and now the Sportsnations with qualified 128 car fields and 200 entries.

The index should be 10.75 or at the very least 10.70. To "protect" our combo, sometimes we might have to run our cars like normal stocker racers, but, for the most part it would be much better and a much leveler playing field.

Taking a little hp off won't help. We'd just drop into A/SA, that would cause some ****.

The fair and correct thing for NHRA to do is adjust the AA/S and AA/SA index.

It doesn't matter to me ... I'm gonna race -

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

I ran AA/SA all last year - ran CC/SA the year before. I don't think it hurt my racing program one bit - but I didn't go to Indy.

I'm just fine with the 10.60 index.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

And you ran how many NHRA National Events in the last two years Mike ?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Another consideration for NHRA (and AA/ stock racers) would be that a more favorable index might attract more cars to the class. Many of the fast A cars might take some weight out and come play. This would increase competition (chances for heads up races),and an interest in the fastest stock class. (As Races we forget that we are a performance based class.) An increase in the Class Car count would help a lot.

My final thought is - looking down the road : With the addition of the "New" cars to traditional Stock Eliminator, ( Like Jeff's beautiful Pink Drag Pac Showroom Challenger ), it's only a matter of time before some legal showroom street engine combos will be approved, or AHFS will move these cars into A - and AA stock. A reasonable index for AA will help bring HP factors for these cars into line much faster, and will delay the "OLD" musclecars demise into NSS.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Nobody could have said it better Jim!

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Based on the performance of some very fast cars at Indy, I think softening up the AA indexes by .200 would be a fair move. And that would still put these cars near the bottom of the sheet.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

The only car at Indy I saw was Jim Bailey who ran 9.90. Earlier in the season he ran a 9.68 in Div 2 but Indy ain't Florida.

The fastest time recorded anywhere in 2015 was in Div 7 at Sonoma when Chuck Rayburn went 9.61 which would maybe equate to about 9.80 or so at Indy last year. Unfortunately 9.80 would be no where near good enough since it took .870 under to get in to the field. Good luck to any AA car capable of running 9.72 (good for the 128th spot) in those conditions.

Rayburn's car is extremely fast but If this is the fastest AA has to offer there can't be a reason good enough not to bring this index ALONG WITH OTHERS OBVIOUSLY OUT OF WHACK pointed out by Billy, Mike Carr, etc back in to line where they belong.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Mike , I think you're pretty darn close. At Indy last year the field was pretty well set on Wednesday ( per usual ). The weather really turned to **** on Thursday. On Wednesday I had a severe case of Indyidis. My head was so far up my rear end I could see my tonsils. While nearly everyone slowed a tenth to 15 hun on Thursday, I decided to view the sunlight and picked up a 10th. I "think" I could of ( woulda coulda shoulda) run 9.78 - 9.80 on Wednesday ( not good enough ). Had Chuck come to Indy he might have gotten in with a 9.70 or 9.71. If Brian would have shown with the Alum. Chevy, on kill, he may have run even better in that junk air, maybe 9.67- 9.70. But, with that said "maybe" two of the fastest AA/SA in the country might have gotten in around 126 -128. The fact is they didn't even bother to show. I think that tells it all. I love stock eliminator racing, all classes, but I also know that the fans would rather watch "the faster" cars. In this new era of NHRA, I would think from a spectator stand point they'd like these faster cars to show up at their major venue races. It's pretty cool to see a AA car chasing down a U / stocker! But you have to be able to race on race day. One thing for sure, class eliminations would be a lot more fun. And with an index adjustment AA/stock ...might ...(and that's a stretch).. stand chance if they have to run the combo.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

10.80 or 10.85.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Ahhhh the voice of reason has finally spoken.
C'mon Larry....let's hear it from you. Your dog will be back in this hunt real soon...so you don't get a pass here....nor do you really want one!

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

The AA/S (10.60) and A/S (10.95) combinations fall into SS/D (10.20) SS/E (10.25). Why are the SS indexs (.05 for the stick and .15 for auto) so tight and the Stock indexs spread out ( .35 for stick and .40 for the auto) so far?

MOST of the cars are factored at or around 400hp/200 lbs. The difference between some of the "natural" AA cars and A cars are light weight body components / fresh air with both using identical engines. Additional HP factors in most cases do reflect the "special" components which in reallity negate their use/exsistence.

Not sure what I am trying to say...may have answered my own question.

10.80 to 10.85 would make sense.

Phil

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

I don't have a dog in this fight but I definitely feel like 10.75-10.80 makes more sense on the index and realistically A/SA should be 10.05 or if it stays at 10.00 B/SA should be 10.20 to make everything fall in line...just my 2 cents

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Sherman, hush up and leave B/SA alone. I just got here. hehehehe Next thing I know you will be wearing cowboy boots and riding some nag. Must be the air in Texas does that.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Never gonna wear a cowboy boots or hat! lol...

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Ok, so the fastest AA car in the nation runs 9.604 at Pomona. ( hardly enough to get a HP hit .) That equates to -.896 under at Indy last year...so at Indy he get's in at #119. None of the other four AA cars come even close to making the 128 car Indy field. Point being made - they're all really fast cars. An adjustment in the AA index is the fare thing for NHRA to do.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Agreed. Don't know what the CF was when he made that run but allowing a tenth is very conservative.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

There is a turbo 4 cylinder in V too.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Chuck Rayburn is the only AA car that ran it out. Everybody else lifted.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

That good info to have Floyd, what was their perspective miles per hour?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

The sheets on line don't show mph. But listening to the announcer yesterday he was saying who was out of it early.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Doubt anyone lifted because they were worried about triggering a review.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Pretty sure Chuck is backing up his argument with ET. Very impressive car but so is that White Camaro!

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Got a nice E mail from Pat Cvengros today and I thank him for his time and consideration.

Jim,
After thoroughly reviewing your request, lengthy discussions, and feedback from additional AA Stock competitors we will not be changing the index.

Pat Cvengros

Pacific Division Technical Director


That's to bad. I was looking forward to the PAPER CAR class at Indy. - Rayburn, Bailey, Little, Yo Ken, Shaul, Madison, Barton, Noland, McClanahan, maybe a couple more. We'll see how many show up in AA trim now......

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Yes Jim I'm quite sure the class @ Indy will be loaded with all the DNQ specials..

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Regular answer from these guys. I always wonder who are these mystery "competitors"? Do they keep them in a room somewhere? The majority of the AA racers want a more realistic index, so who are the "competitors"? When you look at it from the ahfs perspective the AA classes get a real break so we might as well look at it that way, save Indy.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Guess I don't understand the logic, how can it make any sense to take out 200 lbs. and take a .4 hit on the index. I thought the AA class was created so that the new cars had a class to participate in stock without weighing 5000 lbs.. Now that all the new cars are in their own class does it not make since that the index for AA be in line with the rest of the indexes? Kind of the same thing that happened to the Hemi's in SS. Their index gets busted .25 for qualifying at the top, then they get the additional .3 when they changed all the indexes. The fastest Hemi qualifier at Indy last year was 106 and the winner of the Hemi shootout qualified 120th. Jim Bailey, were you part of the 'lengthy discussion' with NHRA? Inquiring minds want to know .. NHRA & IHRA did a great job of killing Top Stock too ...

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Another voice of reason has spoken and put it all in perspective.
Great post Mr Beach!