2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

As we had heard, the unblown cars are written out the program, unless they can run faster than a blown car. Imagine that. Fastest 8 get to run. Don't matter which motor. Sounds like a Chevrolet deal to me. It's no secret Chevy has not done too well in the Naturally Aspirated classes in the shoot outs. So just write out the rest of us. Bo Butner, Kevin Helms, David Barton, just for starters now have Stock Eliminator cars only and those guys just come to mind early. There are a few more. Hawk is a player. Some V10 cars (mine included) So it's blown or nothing.

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

How long have you been around. As long as NHRA DRIVES CHEVYS THEY WILL GET THE NOD!

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Leave it to the NHRA to screw up a good thing!

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Jeff, David Barton is entered for Gainesville in FS/A with a 2015 COPO with a supercharged 350. I believe that the car is owned by Gary Wolkwitz of SS/AH fame.

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Jeff - as we discussed numeroouss times - they were never going to put enough weight on the blower cars to make "heads up" sense and they sure did not want a handicap start for the "NA"cars.

NBD - We can stay focused and not worry about the shoot out - we just have blower cars co-mingled in our class until they "blow" themselves out - LOL

Ron
Durham-Motorsports

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Looks like the field of cars just reduced it self by one half1

NO WAY THIS DEAL WORKS WITHOUT COMING UP WITH A SYSTEM TO SLOW THE BLOWER CARS DOWN! There is no way to stack enough weight in them for their to ever be any parity so the NA cars get screwed as a result. The fans could care less whether these cars run 7.99 or they run 8.75. It's heads up racing they want to see!

What's next when these cars exceed the roll cage rules? Who wants torch the cage out of their 150,000 car to put a funny car cage in it?

Bad idea NHRA.. This decision just cost me a ton of money. Good thing I still have my trusty 67 Camaro.

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

:mad: Bummer!

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Welcome to the SS wars of 1960s all over again. Factories get excited to win, NHRA collects more money and racers, racers get factored, new parts arrive weekly and the end is in sight again. Apples against oranges or lemons still cannot be factored to race heads up.
Not trying to rain on parade but are we really surprised by the issues? responses and problems?
Fake HP and factoring are again the problems.

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Are you guys sure that they are not intending to run separate 8 car fields in FS/X and FS/XX? Or possibly the fastest 8 against separate indexes? That's how a few others have interpreted the news. They still reference both and if the intent is to only take 8 cars in one class then why still reference two classes that you no longer acknowledge a distinction between?

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Any chance that those who were N/A before (and competitive) that switched to blown combos in the off season knew before the rest of us??? Hmmm!

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

This is all news to me. I wish I had connections like that.

I personally think this is a great start to something better for those who want to make the move. It's certainly not for everyone, I get that, but it separates them from the rest of the field which is exactly what everyone has been asking for. They're also giving people a chance to try it with an alternative if they don't qualify. At least the NHRA is trying to make it work. I'm very surprised to see this in motion. Maybe it's because the NMCA lit a fire under their behinds?

The way I read the rules I thought they meant quickest 8 from each class. I hope I'm right. Would be stupid otherwise.

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

No mention of payout for these special quick 8 races from NHRA or any of the competitors on this board. Do you guys now worry or think about a payout and racing for a trophy is what you are after?

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

So now the first alternate is the #1 qualifier, and the rest of the DNQ's get in line for all of the byes. Sounds fair to me, I think I will skip this race.

So if the DNQs go back in with the regular Stock eliminator cars, will the AHFS apply?? That would be fair!!

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

HAHAHA what a country, has anyone ever tried a soup sandwich?

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Great reply by David Barton. Especially the final paragraph!

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

I believe the Quick 8 is the fastest from X and XX combined. Not 8 from each class.

I have significant investment in the success of the naturally aspirated class both professionally and personally. I agree that under these rules an NA car making the quick 8 is unlikely but the cars are still stock legal and if I understand correctly they can still run all-out with no penalty. FS/X will be more like a standard Class elimination assuming none of the cars make the top-8.

It is a positive sign that NHRA is trying something and bringing a new sponsor into a class. For the top 8 cars there will be much higher visibility, which ultimately will give higher visibility to all Stock cars. Why they didn't announce payouts is unclear to me but my understanding is that the reason for a sponsor was to bring payouts for the racers.

I encourage everyone who planned to run FS/X to still do so for the time being. It will give you a voice to request change. Possibly there will be a way to either elevate that class in another way or equalize the combinations such that the NA cars have a shot at the final 8.

Ford is posting $2500 for the winner of X and XX at the Factory Showdown events this year. In this way the FS/X class has a higher value than other Class wins. We are retaining the $2500 that was for the overall winner from the X vs. XX run-off, now for the winner of the top-8 run-off. We will continue to showcase all the Factory Showdown cars as best as possible through Ford's media outlets.

The format announced is not what I have discussed with many of you and was not my recommendation to NHRA, but I do see positives in their announcement and I will focus my energy on getting the most out of it for the sport and encouraging beneficial updates when I can.

There are legitimate concerns being raised and it's important to stay constructive in our criticism and positive about the good things. Change can happen as evidenced by the very existence of the Factory Showdown.

I'll see you in Gainesville!

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Jesse,

Thank you for your response and expressing your personal viewpoint as well as that of Ford Racing!

As you are aware I also have a huge personal investment in the NA part of the program and totally disagree with these new rules which virtually wash away any chance of an NA car making the quick 8.

The sad part of this story is that it such an easy fix. All they have to do is back the S/C combos off from having the ability to make an extra 200 HP more than than most had anticipated when they were created. There is no way to bring parity any other way via adding or subtracting weight until the field has been tightened.

Trust me I know from first hand experience that the fans will not care about these cars running in the 8.0's. What they will care about is a wide disparity between number 1 and number 8. All they really want is close heads up competition and they won't care if they run 8.70's as long as it's exciting. Top Stock proved this at Norwalk in 2000 when 25,000 screaming fans watched a group of great Stock Eliminator cars run heads up running 10.20's. The excitement level was so huge that the Top Fuel and Pro Stock drivers and crew members emerged from the pit areas to see what all the noise was about!

With that being said I agree with you in remaining patient and let's see how this all plays out. NHRA has taken a good first step in the right direction in their attempt to do something very positive with the Factory Hot Rods and Paul and I will continue to support the class until changes are eventually made. We will not be at Gainsville but will follow your advise and attend Englishtown, Norwalk, and Indy in support of FS/X cars.

Thanks again for your support!

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

I have received a few messages about rules and class structure this is really all I know:

2.2. FACTORY STOCK SHOWDOWN COMPETITION. The top eight (8)
racers in the Factory Stock category shall compete in an eight (8)-car
elimination bracket to be held on Saturday and Sunday of each Factory
Stock Showdown National Event. All aspects of the Factory Stock
Showdown will be directed and controlled by NHRA and all matters of
racing operations and interpretation of the rules shall be made by NHRA
in NHRA’s sole discretion. The manner in which the Factory Stock
Showdown is run and the winner is decided may be adjusted by NHRA’s
Racing Operations personnel as deemed appropriate by NHRA.

2.3. PURSE.
The purse for all Factory Stock Showdown events, except the last Factory
Stock Showdown event to be held during each year the Term (the “Finals”),shall be paid by NHRA as follows:
2016
Winner $1,500
Runner Up $1,000
Losing Semi-Finalists $700 ($350 x 2)
Losing Quarter Finalists $600 ($150 x 4)

The purse for the Finals shall be paid by NHRA as follows:
2016
Winner $2,500
Runner Up $1,500
Losing Semi-Finalists $900 ($450 x 2)
Losing Quarter Finalists $1,000 ($250 x 4)

3.1.8. Winner’s Circle at Factory Stock Showdown National Events.
NHRA will conduct “Winner’s Circle” ceremonies at the conclusion of
the Factory Stock Showdown at each Factory Stock Showdown
National Event. NHRA shall provide a Program-branded jacket and a Wally trophy to the Factory Stock Showdown champion.

I hope this clarifies some questions everyone might have.
-Brian

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Brian,

As you guys are the sponsor for this, what do you think about a pulley change for the supercharged entries? I know that you have been very involved with the N/A side of things, so I am sure you can see the issue presented by some of the racers in this thread.

I hope you are doing well,

Daren

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Very easy fix for Supercharged Cars.
No bottom pulley!

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Jesse, thanks for your thoughtful response.

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Does anyone know where these rules are posted? They're not in the new 2016 Rulebook.

The new format seems to be a better way for GM, Ford and Chrysler/Fiat to showcase their new cars, so we know they're happy! But it does make things a bit confusing, at least for me! To wit:

• Is the Quick 8 a "race within a race within a race"? Will there still be a "Factory Showdown" at these selected events?
• Will the FS/XX and FS/X entries who don't qualify for the "Quick 8" run the "Factory Showdown" or will they be allowed to make adjustments and run their "normal" Factory Stock class. If everyone is correct, there will be 8 less FS/XX entries running in the "Showdown".
• How does the NHRA allocate points for the FS/XX and FS/X entries? If they're only running 4 times-a-year, how do they make-up the points they don't earn in their "normal" FS/-classes during the regular season races?

The "Quick 8" seems to be a great marketing tool, for both the NHRA and the manufacturers! The new TV coverage on Fox Sports should really be able to play this up!

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Here's the link.

http://nhra.com/story/2016/2/22/fact...wdown-sponsor/

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

The only question I have are they going to run the quick 8 to completion both Saturday and Sunday, or rounds each day, or only run the final round on Sunday?

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Hard to understand the logic here. Too simple to have A/FX and B/FX and why have a run off anyway. The Shoot Out's have been horribly administered in the few years they have been here. We won the first NA in Indy, and NHRA had to order another Wally; there was none, but they did and promptly. The indexes were a mile off so the rest of the field was not happy. Two years ago Nick from American Racing Headers offered to sponsor a NA class for the year. He was turned down by NHRA because he did not want to do the blown cars also. I do not agree with Jessee and David that this in a good direction. Of course Jessee Kershaw is always more politically correct than me. Between Ford, Mopar, and Chevrolet there are about 800 of these new cars produced, but in my humble opinion this free multi-million gift to the racing community and mostly NHRA has been treated as unwanted children. And in my earlier post I thought Chevy had input on this. I have been told that this is not true. I apologize. It does not make sense to rule out cars you produced, and Brian Massengill who sponsored the series is written out. Now who in the world would write out the Sponsor? With this post, I am seeking help in Indy to tear down the five cars I am bringing. Jessee can be the Social Director (Beer Boy) of the group, and David Barton and Mike Keener and the rest of the NA guys will be teardownologist.

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

I,as Jeff mentioned in his post above cannot understand the logic of this change. How do you change the rules 3 weeks before the first race? Yes, I understand that we can still try and qualify for the quick 8, but in reality what chance does an NA car have against a blower car, heads up??

I don't know about Ford or Dodge but it is my understanding that Chevrolet sells more NA cars than blower cars, so why would the NA cars be made uncompetitive in a series that they were created for?? One would think the the NHRA would want both NA and blower cars showcased!

In conversation with Brian M. he was not aware of this rule change until after the contract was signed, and as Jeff mentioned Brian does not have a competive combination, at this time,to run in the series that he is sponsoring, since he runs an NA car? How does one convert from an NA to a blower combination, plus the chassis upgrade required in 3 weeks, 3 months or even a year if they choose to do so??

I also do not agree with Jesse but understand his position and needing to be politically correct.

As David mentioned, if it does not include both NA and blower cars it would be stupid!

Now I know what the Pro Stock Truck guys felt like, spend a pile of money then have the program, as it was stated, changed in the middle of the game.

Sorry for the rant but had to make my feelings known!!😡😡

Jim Boburka
FS/C 1707

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

I guess there is only so much sponsor/payout money on the table? I don't know, but I would love to have a N/A class that had potential to put me in the "Big Show". I am not so sure that I want a blower car. And I would be pretty upset if I went down that road and then they changed things up again!

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Jim,

I'm in the same boat so i totally get how you feel. Like I said in my post under Jesse's I'm not going to attend Gainsville but will attend the last three races just so they get a first handed look at how much disparity there really is between these combinations.

Probably after Gainsville they would have already figured it out and will fix the problem by restriction on the S/C cars before Englishtown. Then again-I won't be holding my breath for that to happen. It could very well be that this is what NHRA really wants. Likely if they do fix it will be only because the S/C cars will be way too fast to run with the standard cage which is only certified to 8.50. The S/C cars can run so fast it's shocking and have yet to really show what they are truly capable of.

If anyone doesn't believe me-just ask Clay Arnett. He will be the first to tell you there is no way to run these cars against each other in their present form. In fact he already said so in another thread a while back if memory serves me correctly.

Guess we will have to see how this all plays out?

MK

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

All Ford has ever built were blower cars, the N/A engine cars were paper cars you couldn't even buy just the engines from Ford they were DIY engines. They way to get ready in 3 weeks is just write a BIG CHECK. IN THIS DEAL THERE WILL ALWAYS RACERS WITH PMS!

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Thank You for the info on the Ford combinations, but REALLY, is writing a BIG check the answer? How about this for a novel approach, FAIRNESS, CONSISTANCY, and some LONGEVITY in a currently stated rules package!

Jim Boburka
FS/C 1707

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Thanks NHRA and SAM you'll just saved me a bunch of work and a few dollars! First the 392 and now this.

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Get your facts straight.

In 2010 Ford built 4 complete NA Cobrajets; 428 - Brian Wolfe, 428 - Gary Richard, 352 - Chris Holbrook and 4.6 3v - Gary Summers.

In 2013 Ford built a small number of complete 5.0 L NA Cobrajets. Randy Payne's Cobrajet (raced by Jeff Harrington) is one that comes to mind.

Ford Racing has also sold complete NA engines. Below is a photo of the COMPLETE 5.0 L N/A motor that Jimmy and I installed in Randy Hopkin's 2013 CobraJet. This engine was purchased COMPLETE from Ford and was delivered by Varsity Ford.

Yes. Ford has some "paper only" N/A combinations in the guide, but they are not alone in doing that.

Re: 2016 Shoot Out Rules posted
 

Well I don't have a dog in this fight. But I agree with the last line of Barton's post. I also agree there is other ways, besides weight to slow the blower cars down. It works out to about .15 per .250" up top and a little less than that on the bottom.

But as I have said to many people, many times....bitch all you want about it, but you will still be at the race.

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X2. But as I have said to many people, many times....bitch all you want about it, but you will still be at the race.