A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

So I started pulling the engine down , pulled pan and its full of bearing material. One by one the rod bearings looked like they were getting restricted oil flow but not as bad as I 've seen. The rods looked fine.

The main bearings on the other hand WERE COMPLETELY DESTROYED :mad::confused:, to the point of the 3 center main caps getting "blued or blackened" .
As you can imagine I'm angry , pissed and any other verb you can come up with.
This isn't my first small block , to say the least...............but it IS my first Dart block ( Little M sportsman ).
The main caps no longer fit tight in the registers either, BTW.
Now here's the really pathetic part.........THESE BLOCKS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PRIORITY MAIN OILING? WTH is going on here?

Main clearance at .003 , crank is straight ( BRC crank ) new Melling pump etc etc. The plugs in the block at rear are not plugging any passages...not that I'm aware of. The sump had 6 quarts.

Now how in the he*lL can a priority main oiling block starve the mains?

You can bet I'll be calling Dart in the AM.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

[QUOTE=joespanova;499472]So I started pulling the engine down , pulled pan and its full of bearing material. One by one the rod bearings looked like they were getting restricted oil flow but not as bad as I 've seen. The rods looked fine.

The main bearings on the other hand WERE COMPLETELY DESTROYED :mad::confused:, to the point of the 3 center main caps getting "blued or blackened" .
As you can imagine I'm angry , pissed and any other verb you can come up with.
This isn't my first small block , to say the least...............but it IS my first Dart block ( Little M sportsman ).
The main caps no longer fit tight in the registers either, BTW.
Now here's the really pathetic part.........THESE BLOCKS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PRIORITY MAIN OILING? WTH is going on here?

Main clearance at .003 , crank is straight ( BRC crank ) new Melling pump etc etc. The plugs in the block at rear are not plugging any passages...not that I'm aware of. The sump had 6 quarts.

Now how in the he*lL can a priority main oiling block starve the mains?

You can bet I'll be calling Dart in the AM.[/QUO
its definatley lack of oil.Severe windage or you are pumping all the oil upstairs..I resonded to your issue on another forum.When you get it repaired,if your still using the same cam and lifters,put a drill on the pump and see if your getting excessive oil to the top,starving things down below.restrictors may be order.Seen this movie plenty times before.Not the blocks fault.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Then why aren't the rods that bad.............in fact some of those bearings looked almost reusable. No bluing on rod bearings ......some shiney but thats it.
The rods get oiled through the crank..........:confused:
Grant.....I did see your other posts and point well taken . I used restrictors in the old Gen 1 stuff and still had starvation issues...........
HOWEVER , starvation never happened as fast as this............ 1RUN? ........Maybe 2? I mean I ran it TWICE and trailered it. It had great oil pressure in the shop......
A new pan , pump and accumulator on the way. I will definately measure lifter to bore clearance ( Carl ).
I want to know about the oil band lifter issue? I'm using Comp plus .300 std rollers. No fancy rollers here.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Crank bent? Just my thought.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Have the crank mainline checked.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Have you had crank wet magged,cracked crank will flex and wipe mains out.
Wet magnaflux uses black light to see cracks.
I mag EVERY crank that comes through the shop,is figured in price of polishing or grinding,
you may mag a dozen and all be good and then next dozen have 6 or 8 cracked.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

With your build and the results you had it really would not have mattered if it was a Dart, World or Bowtie block the results would have been the same in the end.

I really doubt it has anything to do with Dart I have worked on a alot of Dart platforms over the years with zero problems.

Oil aireation is not a good thing, Once again those rods are a lot of mass compared to a good steel rod and aluminum rods will create alot of windage that you don't need at that RPM.

You have no clue on lifter bore clearance and those lifters run small with is dumping to much oil on the crank and rods plus the oil to the top end is regulated off lifter bore clearance to much clearance to much oil to the top end. Those budget lifter did not really save you any money in the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpfOKr3B3FA

Your running a 90's pan that has been discontinued there is a reason they discontinued this pan.

You need a cam bearings that will not pour unwanted oil down on the crank and cause windage issues.

I will send your links to Dart for you so that they can evaluate your build and go from there.

The vacuum pump is a good deal but with vacuum and poor oil clearances it sucks oil out of those areas.

When your oil pump is sucking aireated oil that is full air the results will not be good in the end.

When your bearings were failing and your running unfiltered oil through your engine was not a good thing, Blocking your bypass really works believe me. I have been doing this for 40 plus years.

If those aluminum rods are like any other aluminum rod that has been run they do change they shape and will probably need to be resized to as they don't hold there shape like a steel rod.

I would really look into a dry sump next time as I mentioned earlier as this would not have happened and would have saved you a ton of money and time in the end.

Once you get all your ducks in a row you will have a good piece there.

At least nothing is broke and its repairable. Its a big set back though.

Good luck in the future.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Mike I'm going to look at that REAL close this time..........

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

After talking to you on the phone I think your headed in the right direction.

Talk to Jake Stelter or google his his name and add drag week.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Listen to this post.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Are you positive that you had .003 on all mains? Have a circle track friend that had exactly the same results that you have had with the same little m block. His engine builder missed it twice and now he has a new builder.
Pete

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

We refer to "wet mag" as an FPI process in aviation.
Fluorescent penetrant inspection (FPI )
I've never heard it referred as "wet mag".......but I believe that's what you or Mike mean.
And yes , I have the option of using traditional mag or FPI.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

I am 100% positive. I am the "builder" . I am a "machinist" of 40 years and use the most accurate currently available gauges used in our shop ( aircraft ).

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

SO ........there ya have it.
Disgusting isnt it.........:mad:

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Glad you caught it before things turned into shrapnel. Amazing how the rod brgs. look perfect and the mains are hammered. Aeration, too much oil upstairs, an internal leak...likely a combination of things. Are you going to change where you source the vacuum or eliminate the pump all together?

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

The mains have a constant load where the rods don't.

At least its on one piece and you still have something to work with!!!!

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

wet mag is FPI when translated from hillbilly. Use the FPI on crankshaft.
If I didn't know anything about this crank and came into my shop,my first guess is it's cracked and would be surprised if it isn't.
I can't tell in picture but has the radius been ground less than original. Been reground and radius reduced? Normally BRC or any aftermarket crank would have 1/8 (.125'') radius at the least,can't tell about crank in picture,but rod bearing doesn't look like it would clear a .125'' radius,looks like it doesn't have the chamfer or narrowed to clear, if radius has been reduced that weakens crank.
Mike Taylor 3601
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

I do see that the crank is burned only on one side, and not where the oil hole is. If it wasn't bent or cracked before, it's at least one or the other now. I don't recall if you said you had it checked for straight/cracks before.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

OK.......
Some of you guys called it correct when you suggested the crank is cracked..........FPI / MPI , whatever you want to call it , shows a crack in the radius near the worst damage................I didn't see it as it was already removed from booth when I got there.
So I finally bury my crank ( did I just say that?).
Now I'm looking at Lunati and Callies.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

I am reducing vac to , say , 6-7in , adding a balance tube to opposite side. I'll still pull off valve cover.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

If your going to the Callies crank check into the Magnum XL with a Rem finish these are some of the pics of the crank I got for Jake Stelters build. That engine runs 8800 RPM and won Drag week 2 years in a row.

The short counter weights are the way to go alot less windage at high RPM's

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...d/SAM_0121.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...d/SAM_0105.jpg

http://s172.photobucket.com/user/bel...ml?sort=3&o=91

http://s172.photobucket.com/user/bel...ml?sort=3&o=92

Some pics of the oil pan.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...ominghome6.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...d/DSC01651.jpg

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Thats some crank he's got right there.........:)
Seems the trend is away from screens now a days........so which pan is he using? I have the 21017 with the tray in the "pic".

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Jake is on F/B

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Nice Super Stock crank! LOL

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

How much does that crank or whats left of a crank weigh?Is that titanium rods? Would have to be light rod and piston combo to balance,but on other hand has a lot of weight removed opposite of counterweight also.
Joe I say crank was your whole problem,hope it gets better from here for you
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Mike I 'm just wondering when it was cracked and for how long.
But I still cant see WHY that caused the condition above? Ok , so it ( assuming it may have been ) was cracked..........:confused:
Flexing / moving around........... would do that?

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

The crank will "bend" towards the crack, making contact with the bearing, and opening up the gap on the other side of the crank - it won't take long for that gap (read-"oil clearance") to get larger as the bearing wears, letting the crank move further, etc. etc. Gets ugly pretty fast. At least you salvaged it before it got even uglier, and destroyed everything.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

a cracked crank flexes and rubs th bearings,probably nine out of ten cranks that look like yours will be cracked.
Yes you assembled,know what you had and mains wipe out for no reason,you can about bet crank was cracked.Cracked crank flexes and you lose your clearance,starvation most likely would start @ front main worst and be not as bad as you go toward oil pump and most like likely get the rods also the same way.
SBC is almost impossible to have oiling issues,unlees you have blocked,missing oil galleys/plugs,clearance issues,etc. Like I said before only time I have had problem on SBC oil system is w/3/4 pick up whether it was pick up or not ??? but a 5/8 fixed it and when first started dynoing every engine that had regular oil filter it would collapse and pressure drop to half of what it was and rev it any and would drop from there, How long have you had trouble? had you took mains out before or had mains looked bad before?
I will tell you shortest version of story,had friend brought us a crank,magged it cracked,he said don't care grind it,we told him wasting your money, he says do it or I will have someone else,so OK we grind it, one race left rains out,so over winter he talks to well known crankshaft repair place tells them the story, they tell him how many cranks get scrapped that people think are junk and a lot of times cracks are only few thousands deep and don't hurt anything,they talk him into sending it in,they say all looks good and cracks are only few thousands deep and only thing could do to improve is chrome back to standard,so he has done gets back credit card is charged close to double of what they quoted,puts back together first race of year he makes 2-3 runs mains wiped out,line bore wiped out. He said you told me so.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Yeah , well........you told me so.:D
So , I bought a Lunati sig series crank, new caps from Dart , line hone ,new std volume Moroso rotor pump , .625 pickup , new Moroso pan ( the 21017 ) slow'd down the vac pump , added restrictors to upper end ( .080 ) and I'll probably pick up an accumulator...
Am I missing anything?:D
Needless to say the complete rebuild set me back a few greenbacks.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Lifter bore clearance.

Cam bearings with out 3 oil holes.

Re: A follow up to "oil starvation issues" thread
 

Yep.......
thx.:)